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Hello Community,
As the title.
If I am running a PFS Scenario, and then we have an "ambush" situation, can the monsters get a full round to act ahead of the party prior to everyone rolling initiative?
For example, if they succeed at a Stealth check and beat the highest Perception DC in the party?
Or, what if one (or more) of the players rolls well, can they join the surprise round?
If not an entire round's worth of actions (◆◆◆), what about just a single action (◆)? Or a free action (◇) or reaction (↺)?
If the answer is "yes", what are the parameters of this leeway?
If the answer is "no", where is it written that this is expressly forbidden?
Thanks!
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It’s definitely not a full round. There’s no surprise round in PF2E. I don’t know that anything expressly says that there isn’t. Nothing expressly says that there is, so by default, there isn’t.
How would you run an encounter when all of the PCs are Avoiding Notice successfully? It should probably be the same thing. I could see either initiative starts, but the PCs don’t know what is going on until the first enemy acts. Or having the enemy take their first action and that be what triggers initiative. But it’s definitely not a full round for all of the enemies.
People who GM more can probably offer better examples of how they run it.
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Yeah, I guess what I meant was that they don’t “get a full round to act ahead of the party prior to everyone rolling initiative.” If they are rolling stealth for initiative, and they win, then they would get their turn as normal. But there are other things besides avoid notice that might make an enemy undetected at the start of combat, like invisibility. In that situation, a PC might win initiative, but still not know what is going on, until the enemy acts.
What the enemy doesn’t get is a full turn for all of the monsters before initiative is rolled and the PCs have a chance to act.
Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
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It's important to note that while they do get "a full turn", they don't get "an additional action/turn" like they did in previous editions. Also, they may win initiative without succeeding in ambushing, or they may lose initiative while still being succesfull in ambushing the PCs:
Let's assume PC has +10 perception, and monster has +10 stealth.
Scenario one:
Monster rolls at least 10 on the dice, PCs roll less than 10. Since monsters initiative (20 or higher) beats the player's perception DC (20) AND it beats their initiative. Monster is undetected and gets to take a full turn because it is now their turn in combat. They probably have a mechanic to benefit from the undetected condition (like ranged sneak attacks or something) but they could just as well stride forward and make two strikes, doesn't really matter - it's a normal combat turn for them. Then, the PC gets to act, also taking a full turn.
Scenario two: Monster rolls 9 (or less) on the dice, PC rolls even lower. Monster still gets to go first (because they won initiative) but since they did not beat the perception DC, they aren't undetected. PC gets to take their turn normally afterwards.
Scenario three: Monster rolls 10+ on initiative, but PC rolls even better.
Monster is still undetected to the PC because they beat PC's perception DC, but PC gets to go first. Since the monster is undetected but NOT unnotice, PC that won initiative knows that someone is around and they get a full normally turn: they can start moving, seeking, casting spells or otherwise preparing for the inevitable attack that is likely to come next. Monster gets to take their full turn afterwards.
As you can see, there is no "surprise round" here. It's just two questions: Did avoid notice beat perception DC? If yes, they start undetected. Who won initiative? They get to go first.
Relevant rules are in GM Core
There isn't a specific rule that denies all reactions for surprised characters - it's up for the GM to determine whether you can use reactions or not. For example, some reactions (or free actions, which generally work in a similar way) might have the trigger of "when you roll initiative" and those may or may not work depending on context. If you were using "raise shield" as an exploration activity and had a shield raised, a GM might let you block with the shield because you had it at the ready, or they might not. Alternatively, a GM might let you use the shield block reaction against a fighter that spent 2 actions running towards you and then made a strike, but might prohibit the reaction against a sniper who shot at you while they were undetected and you were off-guard.
People who are surprised can't take Reactions before their first turn.