Peverse incentives

[siegfriedliner]

Usually when you look at party building you usually want a party that covers a wide number of bases as possible.

But for the commander to be most effective you want a party of mostly ranged weapon users or mostly melee weapon users.

This seems unfortunate to me, perhaps for the master tactics it would be better if their were optional for complex tactics like one melee ally charging and the another making a ranged attack or cantrip as covering fire. Or some other arengement of tactics that get some squad mate to do one action and another to do something else in response.

[Easl]

siegfriedliner wrote:

Usually when you look at party building you usually want a party that covers a wide number of bases as possible.

But for the commander to be most effective you want a party of mostly ranged weapon users or mostly melee weapon users.

This seems unfortunate to me, perhaps for the master tactics it would be better if their were optional for complex tactics like one melee ally charging and the another making a ranged attack or cantrip as covering fire. Or some other arengement of tactics that get some squad mate to do one action and another to do something else in response.

I got the same impression; I think because of this the movement tactics are going to see a lot more play. To pick a few examples, shields up only affects shield users, and ready aim fire only affects ranged users, but form up helps everyone.

However that's just theorycrafting, I'd love to hear people's experiences playing it. Maybe even getting one shield up or one free reloads turns out to be tactically valuable.

Still, we can think about how to generalize this. Maybe something like:

"Prepare!" 1a. Squadmates within banner range may take one of the following actions: raise a shield; reload; step; stand; point out."
That could still use some tweaking to be beneficial to casters but you get the idea.

[Perpdepog]

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see some more mixed unit tactics show up in the full release, myself. I do agree there is a need for them, especially in pickup games like PFS.

Though, to play devil's advocate for just a moment, we might also be seeing focused tactics because of an assumption that parties will be mixed ranges. Tactics get more powerful the more people can take advantage of them, so it could be that the hope is an all-melee or all-ranged tactic will have its power curbed by party comp making it less efficient.
I don't think that's what happened, mostly because it incentivizes optimizers to make even more homogenous parties, and Paizo seems to be trying to not fall into that sort of play pattern. Just mentioning it as a possibility to consider.

[Ectar]

I think a bunch of the tactics can be broadened slightly.
Like let Shields Up allow an affected ally to cast the Shield cantrip.

Mountaineer and Naval training can be combined into one tactic that grants either a swim or climb speed, chosen when you prepare that tactic with your squad.

Probably a more generalist Master Tactic will be released, since the two in the playtest are very disparate in the playstyle and party they're good in.

[rainzax]

Also.

More than two Prepared Tactics being a possible build to start.

[Gobhaggo]

Ectar wrote:

I think a bunch of the tactics can be broadened slightly.

Like let Shields Up allow an affected ally to cast the Shield cantrip.

Mountaineer and Naval training can be combined into one tactic that grants either a swim or climb speed, chosen when you prepare that tactic with your squad.

Probably a more generalist Master Tactic will be released, since the two in the playtest are very disparate in the playstyle and party they're good in.

Shields up can be widened to also allow taking cover IMO.

[Easl]

Easl wrote:

"Prepare!" 1a. Squadmates within banner range may take one of the following actions: raise a shield; reload; step; stand; point out."

That could still use some tweaking to be beneficial to casters but you get the idea.

Late edit: just thought of an add for casters. How about: "...; cast a single action cantrip that targets the caster or one of their allies." That keeps it small and in the theme of using the tactic for 'preparing to engage' activities.

[Mellored]

Just FYI.

Michael Sayre wrote:

There will definitely be more tactics of every tier in the final release; the playtest is just a data collection baseline.

[siegfriedliner]

Mellored wrote:

Just FYI.

Michael Sayre wrote:

There will definitely be more tactics of every tier in the final release; the playtest is just a data collection baseline.

More tactics will be better and I am looking forward to it but ideally I would like less tactics that awarded you for having having a ranger archer, a fighter archer and a gunslinger in the same party and ones that awarded you for having a mix of melee, ranged and magic.

[Mellored]

siegfriedliner wrote:

Mellored wrote:

Just FYI.

Michael Sayre wrote:

There will definitely be more tactics of every tier in the final release; the playtest is just a data collection baseline.

More tactics will be better and I am looking forward to it but ideally I would like less tactics that awarded you for having having a ranger archer, a fighter archer and a gunslinger in the same party and ones that awarded you for having a mix of melee, ranged and magic.

Sword and Bow

One ally makes a melee attack, one makes a ranged attack against the same target.

Or some such.

[Alchemic_Genius]

Just a note on the shield thing; while I do think that Shields Up should apply to the shield cantrip, any class can use a shield, and I'd actually argue it's the most universal option.

It's not hard for caster to use a a shield. The only people is left out is 2h combatants and bow/2h gun users, but like, when you take up a greatsword or whatever, you're making an active choice to not use a shield in exchange for more damage. At least in my tables, people generally use shields unless there's something specific they are going for, even if they aren't packing shield block, since getting +2 ac is a nice way to use a filler action

[Castilliano]

Casters often occupy their hands with scrolls, a staff, or a free hand for spells that need that. Then there's also Bulk and the availability of an extra action to raise it (unless they're designing knowing the Commander will cover that for them).
That said, casters should definitely consider them, not dismiss them just because they aren't a martial.

[Gortle]

siegfriedliner wrote:

Usually when you look at party building you usually want a party that covers a wide number of bases as possible.

But for the commander to be most effective you want a party of mostly ranged weapon users or mostly melee weapon users.

I think every character should have a ranged and melee option. Obviously one is going to be a preference. But sometimes it is the encounter that dictates what you need to do.

[Unicore]

Gortle wrote:

siegfriedliner wrote:

Usually when you look at party building you usually want a party that covers a wide number of bases as possible.

But for the commander to be most effective you want a party of mostly ranged weapon users or mostly melee weapon users.

I think every character should have a ranged and melee option. Obviously one is going to be a preference. But sometimes it is the encounter that dictates what you need to do.

I'd even go so far as to say that the best Commander tactics shine brightest when everyone in the party is capable of doing a little bit of everything. Ready, Aim, Fire! gives more actions to a party not already ready for a ranged barrage, and tactics like pincer attack and coordinating maneuvers become far more limited if two members of the party are so specialized in ranged attacking that they would never, under any circumstances want to start a turn adjacent to an enemy.

[HammerJack]

Ectar wrote:

I think a bunch of the tactics can be broadened slightly.

Like let Shields Up allow an affected ally to cast the Shield cantrip.

Mountaineer and Naval training can be combined into one tactic that grants either a swim or climb speed, chosen when you prepare that tactic with your squad.

Probably a more generalist Master Tactic will be released, since the two in the playtest are very disparate in the playstyle and party they're good in.

The Shield cantrip actually says that it counts as the Raise a Shield action, and they've now errata-ed Glass Shield to say the same. I think that covers it without the tactic calling them out specifically.

Quote:

You raise a magical shield of force. This counts as using the Raise a Shield action (page 419), giving you a +1 circumstance bonus to AC until the start of your next turn, but it doesn’t require a hand to use. While the spell is in effect, you can use the Shield Block reaction (page 262) with your magic shield. The shield has Hardness 5. You can use the spell’s reaction to reduce damage from any spell or magical effect, even if it doesn’t deal physical damage. After you use Shield Block, the spell ends and you can’t cast it again for 10 minutes. Heightened (+2) The shield’s Hardness increases by 5.