RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
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I've been toying with the idea of replacing the Mother of All with something else; maybe some sort of dragon or demon.
Has anyone done anything like this, or do you have any ideas? Let's say CR11 or 12.
(My players are level 7 but well equipped, loaded up with Action Points and carrying splatbooks)
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
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Well, basically because there aren't many dragons in the AP and my players have been asking if they can have dragons. There's also the green on the Isle and a demon would be fun.
Plus the PC druid has discovered Junglerazer in the Spell Compendium (7d10 damage vs plant critters) and if he keeps one or two of them handy the big fight could be an anticlimax. I anticipate a good four sessions in the Sargasso with waves of plants, so I want a top-class finish to the voyage.
Keep the mother ! Why are you thinking of abandoning our mother? My players druid used that spell and wasted her also, but the players had sooo much fun taking her out. There was a huge build up to the battle and when the druid dropped that and iirc a "antiplant shell" type spell the party was so relieved. They thought certain death was upon them.
IMHO the path has PLENTY of demons already and the mother just makes sense! I vote for the mother! Hand them the hard fights on the Iod!
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Plus the PC druid has discovered Junglerazer in the Spell Compendium (7d10 damage vs plant critters) and if he keeps one or two of them handy the big fight could be an anticlimax. I anticipate a good four sessions in the Sargasso with waves of plants, so I want a top-class finish to the voyage.
I have a Druid in my STAP campaign and I also allowed the Spell Compendium. I didn't have any problems with the Mother of All fight.
As an alternative to replacing the Mother, and if the junglerazor spell is big concern for you, you could space out the encounters with the vine horrors in such a way as not to give them a good opportunity to rest. Or you could advance the vine horror and use that a few times to give them impression that they've arrived at the boss fight (and more apt to expend their better spells).
The problem with replacing Mother is that Mother is what holds the Sargasso together. Killing Mother causes the Sargasso to break up, thus releasing the ship. No Mother = no reason for the Sargasso to break up = no reason for the ship to escape. If the ship can escape with the Sargasso breaking apart (thus without killing Mother), what motivation is their to kill Mother? See what I'm getting at. Mother is pretty well integrated into that portion of SWW.
-Skeld
My take on the “Mother of All” is that it is a very Lovecraftian concept. I don’t know if you’re into all that, but there are several threads about the C’thulu-like elements of the STAP. I only mention this because I think it’s good to be aware of such things before tweaking. If you don’t think that Lovecraft brings anything to the table for you group (i.e. if none of them even know who Lovecraft or C’thulu are), then they won’t miss this particular creature.
That being said, someone else id comment about the Mother’s role in holding the Sargasso together and, subsequently, its death resulting in the breakup that frees the ship. Essentially, the Mother of All IS the Sargasso. If you are going to swap out the Mother, you should give some thought to why the ship gets stuck and exactly what mechanism releases it.
Lastly, dragon’s are always good. I’ve always felt that there were too few dragons in Dungeons & DRAGONs. Well, unless you’re playing a Dragonlance campaign, but you’re not. Frankly, you can throw in a dragon encounter anywhere, anytime. It doesn’t have to pertain directly to the plot of the STAP. I haven’t read through the Age of Wyrms AP, but maybe there is some story element there that might inspire some creative idea for you.
And, as for spoiled players, there’s no way we could make that call. Only you are qualified to determine that. I’m all in favor of giving players what they want, at least in situations like this. I don’t mean give them +5 Vorpal Swords and Mighty Warhammers of Brain Mashing, but a request for an encounter with a particular monster – yeah, make it happen. Personally, I love me some vampires. There’s one player I have that just LOVES a good rumble with orcs – the more the merrier. And, yeah, as a treat, a good dragon fight every now and then is sweet.
Come on. Dungeons & Dragons without a dragon every now and then? That’s like not being able to get any chicken and Kentucky Fired Chicken! Or Burger King being out of burgers. Taco Bell with no tacos. Wendy’s having no chicks that look like Pippy Longstocking. I mean, were talking cats and dogs living together! Mass hysteria!
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
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Cheers Troy!
I'm all for the Lovecraft (hurry up and film it, del Toro) but these guys don't know him (They're all Dutch, I don't know if the books have even been translated).
And yeah, I dig the whole sargasso mother thing, I was thinking of some sort of adapted, aquatic, twisted, tortured child-dragon doing the same thing. Still, a freaky seaweed-beast is cool, and maybe they've seen the one in the old Godzilla cartoons too!
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why not the best of both worlds?
take a dragon of appropriate CR, then step back 2.
if there's a "plant-thing" template, i'm not familiar with it, but with a little work it could be fairly easy to accomplish.
Plant Immunities: no sneakattack/crits
DR 5 or 10 / Slashing
Resistant to Fire 20-30
Entangle at will
Animate Plants 3/day
Plant Growth 1/day
CL=15? 12?
Gains 2 Tentacle attacks, loses claws or wings, damage as appropriate for size (1d8 for large, 2d6 for huge, IIRC)
not sure if thats worth 2 CR on a dragon, but add in the greater maneuverability from being a flying dragon and the dragon HD/stats and should be appropriate.
as far as the "mother is the sargasso"....why not make it some kind of "Mother Brain" thing that is holding this plant mass together. Animating the horrors and assassin vines, this dragon creature, and the sargasso weeds itself doesn't mean it HAS to be a combat monster. What's wrong with the classic "heart of darkness" with a dripping, pulsing, brain-like mass of horrible otherworldly plant goo?
This way, the party can fight against the vine horrors and assassin vines for a while, when they make it to the wreck, have 1 or 2 more big fights in close environments, then have to take on Mr. Plant-Bitey-Dragon-Guy. Once he's out of the way (temporarily, perhaps...maybe he keeps regenerating, a la tendriculous) they have to move on, kill the brain-thing, take the treasure, and get out of dodge.
Simple change, keeps the major plot points intact, and gets a dragon-like-creature in the mix.
-t
Hmm. Kind of a Plant Dragon - like the shadow dragon, it's an elemental dragon. I think there was also a temporal dragon and some other elements, but this would be a plant elemental dragon. Sort of a Swamp Thing, but a Dragon version. Why not?
Now, is yours a miniature using group? Use an appropriately sized green dragon mini, but guild him with landscaping material from the hobby shop.
Hmm, have you considered a breath weapon? I only ask because, well, if it's a dragon... I suppose poison gas is reasonable. I just can't think of anything else. I was thinking, specifically, chlorine gas, becuase, you know, chlorophyl, but I looked into it a bit and there's not as much chemical relationship as you would think, so "poison gas" without being to specific is probably better.
I'm just throwing out some stuff. I don't know if it's worth anything - just brianstorming.
Can't get the emage of snap dragons out of my head now, and that's kind of funny.
Just paste moss on the dragon miniature when you make it a plant creature :-)
There is a "wood element" template in Manual of the planes. Perhaps it is useful. Or you can use the "yellow musk zombie" template as a basis (I am just not sure whether it works on dragons, but you can always adapt it).
By the way, I am Dutch and I know Lovecraft. Some of his books have been translated into Dutch in the past. I have a Dutch edition with short stories from 1982. I also have "The case of Charles Dexter Ward" in Dutch. It is from 1974. And a Dutch version of "The dream-quest of unknown Kadath" dated 1972. You can sometimes find them in second-hand bookstores. They are worth reading if you like the style.
Hmm. Kind of a Plant Dragon - like the shadow dragon, it's an elemental dragon. I think there was also a temporal dragon and some other elements, but this would be a plant elemental dragon. Sort of a Swamp Thing, but a Dragon version. Why not?
Now, is yours a miniature using group? Use an appropriately sized green dragon mini, but guild him with landscaping material from the hobby shop.
Hmm, have you considered a breath weapon? I only ask because, well, if it's a dragon... I suppose poison gas is reasonable. I just can't think of anything else. I was thinking, specifically, chlorine gas, becuase, you know, chlorophyl, but I looked into it a bit and there's not as much chemical relationship as you would think, so "poison gas" without being to specific is probably better.
I'm just throwing out some stuff. I don't know if it's worth anything - just brianstorming.
Can't get the emage of snap dragons out of my head now, and that's kind of funny.
How about a breath weapon based on poisonous gases from decayed plant matter? Does methane fit the bill? (I am in no way a chemist or biologist.) And would there be the risk of flammable gases in that case?
How about a breath weapon based on poisonous gases from decayed plant matter? Does methane fit the bill? (I am in no way a chemist or biologist.) And would there be the risk of flammable gases in that case?
You know, we might be coming at this from the wrong direction (Careful there – I don’t mean THAT). Does it need to be “poisonous”? Rotting plants – you don’t think poisonous, you think “ick” and you wretch. Stinking Cloud!
How about a breath weapon based on poisonous gases from decayed plant matter? Does methane fit the bill? (I am in no way a chemist or biologist.) And would there be the risk of flammable gases in that case?
You know, we might be coming at this from the wrong direction (Careful there – I don’t mean THAT). Does it need to be “poisonous”? Rotting plants – you don’t think poisonous, you think “ick” and you wretch. Stinking Cloud!
Actually, I think that I would retch! :)
Seriously though, that's a good idea. Make that a high-DC-to-save Stinking Cloud!
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
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Cool! Choke gas!
I like the brain idea too: at the heart of the sargasso is a freaky brain-shaped conglomeration running the show, guarded by the strongest of the creatures it's trapped and taken over, a young dragon. The flesh of the dragon has almost totally rotted away, and has been replaced by vegetable matter and seaweed.
Hmmmm - I could have the freaky young in the brain pool (illithid style) to give it a last defence. The freaky young ... and a few vine horrors in alcoves like borg.
We played the second session of the first wave last night. I'd put them up against 5 vine horrors and the whole fight took about 6 hours in total! It didn't help that they'd used their strongest spells trying to get out, and were down to 1st and 2nd level ones. It took them a while to catch on to what was happening, but eventually they sent out a recon, found the vine horrors, and took the fight to them.
I played the vine horrors hard, animating vines and swimming under the surface and so on. Still, after using almost every spell, a few scrolls, six action points, three stabilized almost deaths and a half a cure light wounds wand they were victorious. And very pleased with themselves.
I'll let them sleep now.
Actually, I think that I would retch! :)
Yeah, whatever. And I spell nod with a "k" That's actually a "knod." It's kind of like that half nod you do to people you know when you say "W'sup?" At least that's what I decided it was after misspelling nod for so many years.
Then there was my great grandfather who emigrated from Italy and couldn’t understand the difference between “hoe,” “hole” and “hold.” He pronounced them all the same way. My grandmother told me he used to say, “You hoe the hoe to dig a hoe. I no understand this’a language.” Of course, that sentence is supposed to end with something I’d rather not translate. Besides, if I can’t spell in English, forget Italian!
Then there’s the whole George Carlin bit about why “room” and “tomb” rime (sic), but “good” and “food” don’t.
Oh, and the same language accented as it is on the other side of the pond isn’t any better. “Schedule.” Okay, I can dig that in British, the “sch” is pronounced “sh.” I can buy that. So when you receive your curriculum for the semester, is it pronounced “shool shedule”? See, in the US it’s a “skool skedule” (phonetically speaking, of course).
Where was I? Oh, yes, Stinking Cloud. Just boil up a nice pot of sauerkraut for atmosphere!
Hmm, hamburgers for dinner, I think…
We played the second session of the first wave last night. I'd put them up against 5 vine horrors and the whole fight took about 6 hours in total! It didn't help that they'd used their strongest spells trying to get out, and were down to 1st and 2nd level ones. It took them a while to catch on to what was happening, but eventually they sent out a recon, found the vine horrors, and took the fight to them.
I played the vine horrors hard, animating vines and swimming under the surface and so on. Still, after using almost every spell, a few scrolls, six action points, three stabilized almost deaths and a half a cure light wounds wand they were victorious. And very pleased with themselves.
I'll let them sleep now.
And now you want to hit them with a dragon??!! Who said you were spoiling your players? Quite the contrary, I think you’re abusing them. I’m gonna call … um, who do I call? Is there a department like DCFS for gamers? Department of Players and Gaming Services? No, that sounds like a d20 hotline where you call with questions mid-game like “How does a medium sized creature with no arms initiate a grapple with an unconscious four-legged creature that’s two size categories larger while floating inside a Bag of Holding?”
No, really, I’d like to know. Don’t think it hasn’t come up.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
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I'm sure I read somewhere about the Paizo habit of putting seemingly innocent encounters in tricky terrain and creating awesome but evil combats. I'd read it but I had to experience it for myself when the combination of difficult terrain with entangles bogged everyone down when the fly spells were finished!
Fully buffed and prepared the same party demolished a giant squid (using kraken stats except for the dominate and stuff) in about three rounds. This time, the terrain and the lack of mobility meant I could get a LOT of touch attacks in. Twenty foot reach surrounded by entangling seaweed is just evil.
The thing is, they've never retreated from a fight yet, ever. I need to keep pushing it every so often until they learn that lesson, or they'll be doomed later! (Xerkamat & Khala spring to mind)...
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
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I want to call that hotline too! Can a character with a ring of jumping and boots of striding & springing (in 3.0 rules) using the Twisted Charge and Walljumper skill tricks while hasted... climb ten foot up a mast and then jump off the ship to land on an enemy and ... count it as a charge?
Oh yeah, using an action point to emulate Leap Attack for good measure.
Came up last night :-(
I want to call that hotline too! Can a character with a ring of jumping and boots of striding & springing (in 3.0 rules) using the Twisted Charge and Walljumper skill tricks while hasted... climb ten foot up a mast and then jump off the ship to land on an enemy and ... count it as a charge?
Oh yeah, using an action point to emulate Leap Attack for good measure.
Came up last night :-(
Yes, for the sheer fact that such a move would be highly epic and stylistic.
Yes, for the sheer fact that such a move would be highly epic and stylistic.I want to call that hotline too! Can a character with a ring of jumping and boots of striding & springing (in 3.0 rules) using the Twisted Charge and Walljumper skill tricks while hasted... climb ten foot up a mast and then jump off the ship to land on an enemy and ... count it as a charge?
Oh yeah, using an action point to emulate Leap Attack for good measure.
Came up last night :-(
I once gave a character a charge bonus for jumping out of a 700' tower to try and tackle an enemy to their inevitable doom. I mean I figure why not? He was definately moving fast and ina straight line :P (player stupidity aside, Sorry to go off topic...)
I say keep the mother, shes cool and creepy and unique... and drop a dragon on them later, there are all kinds of travelling opurtunities...
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
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It'd be epic, yup. Except, he always tries to think of super epic moves (because he does double damage on a charge). It's a chicken and egg situation - if he just did cool stuff I'd throw bonuses at him. He keeps the whole table waiting 20 minutes trying out different idea,
"And if I also sing Dixie, is it a charge then?"
I think you're all right about the mother, she's freaky and creepy, she can stay.
It'd be epic, yup. Except, he always tries to think of super epic moves (because he does double damage on a charge). It's a chicken and egg situation - if he just did cool stuff I'd throw bonuses at him. He keeps the whole table waiting 20 minutes trying out different idea,
"And if I also sing Dixie, is it a charge then?"
I think you're all right about the mother, she's freaky and creepy, she can stay.
Just to help you out, singing Dixie does not impact the charge one way or the other, but, depending on the target, an Intimidate roll might apply. Other such tactics would include reciting Charge of the Light Brigade, singing “Kill the Wabbit” (to the toon (sic) of Ride of the Valkyries), and whistling the Andy Griffith theme. In the latter case, it has a similar effect to a "Confusion" spell.
I once gave a character a charge bonus for jumping out of a 700' tower to try and tackle an enemy to their inevitable doom. I mean I figure why not? He was definately moving fast and in a straight line :P (player stupidity aside, Sorry to go off topic...)
First, this had me ROTFLMAO (excuse the language). This is hysterical, just the visual alone!
However, I just have to ask: Did you make the player roll to hit with a non-proficient ranged attack? I just think it would be even funnier if he sacrificed his character … and MISSED!
I played the vine horrors hard, animating vines and swimming under the surface and so on. Still, after using almost every spell, a few scrolls, six action points, three stabilized almost deaths and a half a cure light wounds wand they were victorious. And very pleased with themselves.
I'll let them sleep now.
Those are the best fights. They give the players a sense of pride.
And the DM too :-)
I once gave a character a charge bonus for jumping out of a 700' tower to try and tackle an enemy to their inevitable doom. I mean I figure why not? He was definately moving fast and in a straight line :P (player stupidity aside, Sorry to go off topic...)
First, this had me ROTFLMAO (excuse the language). This is hysterical, just the visual alone!
However, I just have to ask: Did you make the player roll to hit with a non-proficient ranged attack? I just think it would be even funnier if he sacrificed his character … and MISSED!
I think that I've heard this story before, on another thread. If I recall correctly, said player's character MISSED.
Am I right, Stewart?
I played the vine horrors hard, animating vines and swimming under the surface and so on. Still, after using almost every spell, a few scrolls, six action points, three stabilized almost deaths and a half a cure light wounds wand they were victorious. And very pleased with themselves.
I'll let them sleep now.
Those are the best fights. They give the players a sense of pride.
And the DM too :-)
I agree 100%, but all it takes is for one player to grouse about a DM call or rules interpretation to kill it. Most of my players, no matter what the situation, even if we’ve (I’ve) done something completely wrong, based on the rules, are like, “Whatever. It was still cool!” But I have one player – a rules lawyer (who unfortunately is the weakest in the party on rules knowledge) – who recently told me that he doesn’t agree with the way I calculate difficulty for skill roll tasks. I’m like, sorry, that’s what a DM is for. That’s why it’s called a “difficulty” rating. It’s not an “easiness” rating! “Yeah, well, the book says the difficulty should be xyz.” Sorry, this isn’t a typical situation. Pick your reason why, it just isn’t.
Boy was he ticked when they tripped a trap last week. The thief in the party (my character before I became DM) is gone (good story reason, btw) so they just blundered into it. All of the PCs and one NPC almost died … but nobody actually did! Still he was grousing. The only thing that appeased him was that I told him I played it exactly the way the STAP had written it. Oh, suddenly because that’s how it was written, it’s okay. If it’s in print, it must be fair and balanced, but the DM’s judgment is suspect.
So what about the time he went unconscious while using a Levitate spell? Does he fall 40 feet to his certain death? No. I ruled that concentration wasn’t required to keep the spell functioning, only to move, so the other players had the remainder of the spells duration to figure out how to get him down hand healed (very funny stuff) Do I get no points for that?
You know, I guess I could have just left it at “All it takes is one player with a bad attitude to ruin it.” Sorry, I just needed to vent.
I once gave a character a charge bonus for jumping out of a 700' tower to try and tackle an enemy to their inevitable doom. I mean I figure why not? He was definately moving fast and in a straight line :P (player stupidity aside, Sorry to go off topic...)First, this had me ROTFLMAO (excuse the language). This is hysterical, just the visual alone!
However, I just have to ask: Did you make the player roll to hit with a non-proficient ranged attack? I just think it would be even funnier if he sacrificed his character … and MISSED!
I think that I've heard this story before, on another thread. If I recall correctly, said player's character MISSED.
Am I right, Stewart?
Yes sir you are correct, he rolled under a 6 on the first try, burnt an action point for another (it was 4e) and roled like a 4. I was kind of amused... I mean I explained he pretty much had little to no chance to suceeed and he decided to do it anyway (hes just one of those players, whom is known for dying every session or two due to these kinds of actions)... :P
I played the vine horrors hard, animating vines and swimming under the surface and so on. Still, after using almost every spell, a few scrolls, six action points, three stabilized almost deaths and a half a cure light wounds wand they were victorious. And very pleased with themselves.
I'll let them sleep now.
Those are the best fights. They give the players a sense of pride.
And the DM too :-)
I agree 100%, but all it takes is for one player to grouse about a DM call or rules interpretation to kill it. Most of my players, no matter what the situation, even if we’ve (I’ve) done something completely wrong, based on the rules, are like, “Whatever. It was still cool!” But I have one player – a rules lawyer (who unfortunately is the weakest in the party on rules knowledge) – who recently told me that he doesn’t agree with the way I calculate difficulty for skill roll tasks. I’m like, sorry, that’s what a DM is for. That’s why it’s called a “difficulty” rating. It’s not an “easiness” rating! “Yeah, well, the book says the difficulty should be xyz.” Sorry, this isn’t a typical situation. Pick your reason why, it just isn’t.
Boy was he ticked when they tripped a trap last week. The thief in the party (my character before I became DM) is gone (good story reason, btw) so they just blundered into it. All of the PCs and one NPC almost died … but nobody actually did! Still he was grousing. The only thing that appeased him was that I told him I played it exactly the way the STAP had written it. Oh, suddenly because that’s how it was written, it’s okay. If it’s in print, it must be fair and balanced, but the DM’s judgment is suspect.
So what about the time he went unconscious while using a Levitate spell? Does he fall 40 feet to his certain death? No. I ruled that concentration wasn’t required to keep the spell functioning, only to move, so the other players had the remainder of the spells duration to figure out how to get him...
I feel ya Troy, I've been there more times than I should. And have had various issues like this ranging from "But my alignment is CG!" (it may have been written thqat way, but definately not played that way) to the old standby pain of *dice rolls and is snatched up before anyone can see it* "I got a 28", to which I respond "On a 20 side, with a +3 bonus... and how exactly is that?" *insert convuluted answer here...* "Nope that just makes it a 25 at best with a nat 20 and you said you rolled a 19...* I hate those :P
Here to make you feel better I give you free Internetz!
Boy was he ticked when they tripped a trap last week. The thief in the party (my character before I became DM) is gone (good story reason, btw) so they just blundered into it. All of the PCs and one NPC almost died … but nobody actually did! Still he was grousing. The only thing that appeased him was that I told him I played it exactly the way the STAP had written it. Oh, suddenly because that’s how it was written, it’s okay. If it’s in print, it must be fair and balanced, but the DM’s judgment is suspect.
So what about the time he went unconscious while using a Levitate spell? Does he fall 40 feet to his certain death? No. I ruled that concentration wasn’t required to keep the spell functioning, only to move, so the other players had the remainder of the spells duration to figure out how to get him down hand healed (very funny stuff) Do I get no points for that?
You know, I guess I could have just left it at “All it takes is one player with a bad attitude to ruin it.” Sorry, I just needed to vent.
Yes, this happens sometimes. I have a player who sometimes feels the need to comment: "If I were the DM, I would have done this differently." I just tell him he isn't the DM. I know this player does not have the time or energy to be a DM, and he knows it too. So for him it is either playing D&D or no D&D at all.
I usually react to such situations by telling the players that I am the one who knows the plot. And that they may think they know the plot, but probably don't. It helps most of the time.