Monster Core Remaster Casualties

[Ravingdork]

Here is a complete casualty report of all the beings that were lost* in the transition from the Bestiary to Monster Core. Source

It's a LOT more than I was thinking it would be!

Aboleth | Aeon, Marut | Aeon, Zelekhut | Angel, Monadic Deva | Angel, Movanic Deva | Angel, Planetar | Angel, Solar | Archon, Hound | Archon, Trumpet | Assassin Vine | Athach | Aurumvorax | Azata, Bralani | Azata, Ghaele | Barghest, Greater | Basidrond | Bebilith | Behir | Belker | Blindheim | Blink Dog | Bloodseeker | Bodak | Bulette | Bunyip | Cave Fisher | Choker | Chuul | Cloaker | Crysmal | Daemon, Ceustodaemon | Daemon, Derghodaemon | Daemon, Piscodaemon | Darkmantle | Demilich | Demon, Babau | Demon, Glabrezu | Demon, Hezrou | Demon, Marilith | Demon, Nabasu | Demon, Nalfeshnee | Demon, Vrock | Destrachan | Devil, Cornugon | Devil, Gelugon | Devil, Hamatula | Devil, Lemure | Devil, Osyluth | Devourer | Doppelganger | Dracolisk | Drakauthix | Dream Spider | Drider | Drow | Efreeti | Ether Spider | Ettin | Filth Fever | Flumph | Formians | Froghemoth | Frost Worm | Golem, Adamantine | Golem, Carrion | Golem, Glass | Golem, Ice | Golem, Mithral | Golem, Obsidian | Golem, Quantium | Golem, Wood | Golems | Gray Ooze | Green Slime | Grick | Hag, Green | Hellcat | Hellwasp Swarm | Hieracosphinx | Huecuva | Inevitables | Jubilex | Kostchtchie | Mimic | Mohrg | Mu Spore | Naga, Lunar | Naga, Spirit | Necrophidius | Neothelid | Oni, Shadow Yai | Oni, Taiga Yai | Orcus | Owlbear | Quickling | Remorhaz | Roper | Rust Monster | Shoggoth | Shrieker | Skum | Sprite, Grig | Tarrasque | Tendriculos | Thoqqua | Vargouille | Velstrac, Evangelist | Violet Fungus | Web Lurker | Wemmuth | Wendigo | Wraith, Dread | Xorn | Yellow Musk Creeper | Yeth Hound

*:

Lost in this case means "likely won't be printed again under a Paizo license." Remember, they are still perfectly usable in your home games.

So, does this impact your feelings on the Remaster? How might this impact your games, if at all? Feel free to discuss any aspect of these changes you wish.

[magnuskn]

Huh, why would they not reprint the Oni? Aren't those Paizo monsters?

[WarDriveWorley]

I'm not sure that I agree all of these are lost. Some of what you're listing (Bunyips for example) predate D&D and should be eligible for updates in the future. It's possible that they were just omitted due to space.

In a similar veins, Paizo is using Golems so they have a chance of returning, maybe under an adjusted name.

[Pagan priest]

Oh no! We lost the flumph? Now I have to completely rewrite my campaign world.

As far as the other monsters, how many might be reappearing in a later volume? Some of those might have been invented for D&D, like the rust monster or owlbear.

[Calliope5431]

magnuskn wrote:

Huh, why would they not reprint the Oni? Aren't those Paizo monsters?

They did reprint most of them, they just renamed them to be biome rather than element specific.

The oni listed just didn't make the cut. I imagine that's because of space constraints rather than actual copyright issues.

Similarly "hound archons" don't technically exist anymore. But only technically.

[Ravingdork]

Pagan priest wrote:

Oh no! We lost the flumph? Now I have to completely rewrite my campaign world.

As far as the other monsters, how many might be reappearing in a later volume? Some of those might have been invented for D&D, like the rust monster or owlbear.

Check the original source (linked in the OP). It suggests which one were cut due to OGL restrictions, and which ones may have been cut for other reasons.

[Kelseus]

Some of these are just not in Monster Core. Others are so generic that you could easily recreate it with a different name.

Assassin Vine is just a level 3 plant creature. Snapping Flytrap (pg 154) is more interesting and does the same thing.

Efreeti are in the Monster Core as an Ifrit. They didn't even change the art.

Several Golems are reprinted, just without the Golem name. I expect many to make a return.

[Perses13]

I find the google doc slightly questionable as a source. Several of these creatures were never in a Bestiary to begin with and so wouldn't make sense to include in Monster Core.

Quantium golems for instance are from Impossible Lands, while Shadow Yai and Taiga Yai Oni are from the Fists of the Ruby Phoenix Adventure Path. When other oni and golems made it in to Monster Core, it seems early to conclude these particular creatures will never be able to be reprinted/updated.

[Pronate11]

yea, I think a lot of these are just "we want to include some stuff from bestiaries 2 and 3, and to do that we need to take some stuff out" and not "we will never print this stuff again". Like, why decide that half the oni are fine but not the other half (particularly as no oni were in bestiary 1 in the first place). I'm going to need official sources for a lot of these never being printed again, particularly as you didn't list the dragons, so presumably this list doesn't include "will be printed with a new name".

[WarDriveWorley]

Ravingdork wrote:

Pagan priest wrote:

Oh no! We lost the flumph? Now I have to completely rewrite my campaign world.

As far as the other monsters, how many might be reappearing in a later volume? Some of those might have been invented for D&D, like the rust monster or owlbear.

Check the original source (linked in the OP). It suggests which one were cut due to OGL restrictions, and which ones may have been cut for other reasons.

Yeah, but a lot listed is conjecture at this point till we get confirmation one way or the other.

[dirkdragonslayer]

WarDriveWorley wrote:

In a similar veins, Paizo is using Golems so they have a chance of returning, maybe under an adjusted name.

Yeah, some like the missing golems and Oni are likely to come back in the theoretical Monster Core 2 and Monster Core 3.

Some of these like the Blindheim I'm like, "that was a D&D thing!? I never knew."

[Kelseus]

Even some of the D&D creatures may make a come back in one form or another.

Per James Jacobs, even a Drider could be in Remaster

James Jacobs wrote:

Fleshwarps are all ours. Driders being called fleshwarps is something we did. But driders being so tied to drow means we'll need to do some adjusments, and at the very least rename them, but a "spider centaur" is not something that D&D can own, and the weird appearance we gave to our driders (which don't have sexy elf heads) are also ours. So it'll probably be limited to a new name and the scrubbing of the drow bit of flavor.

[dirkdragonslayer]

I hope a future Monster Core 2 has a focus on darklands monsters. It's an environment that really got hurt by the cuts, and various wildlife options like blindheims, cave fishers, basidronds, etc is leaving it a little sparse.

[Veltharis]

Kelseus wrote:

Even some of the D&D creatures may make a come back in one form or another.

Per James Jacobs, even a Drider could be in Remaster

Similar to "Medusa" being used as the name for a type of creature rather than a singular individual, "Arachne" seems to have taken up the mantle of "public domain spider-centaur" in a lot of circles.

[Nintendogeek01]

Seeing some of the renames I'd like to try renaming some of the monsters that didn't make the cut, even if it only amounts to a thought exercise.

And of course I am saying that on the gross assumption that all of the "casualties" are gone forever. Yes some of them are in the sense they'll never be committed to print going forward, but others are probably just waiting on the new paintjob.

[CorvusMask]

Shadow yai are clearly just night oni now (check the sidebar and description of night oni)

Lemure basically become ort.

Yeah lot of these were basically just renamed

[Cole Deschain]

Bring on a proper mythological Tarrasque. :P D&D can't really own that name, they can just own it as "the name of the bigggest baddest boojum around"

(I'm kidding, that name is now so loaded with D&D associations that one based on the French stories would likely be rejected outright)

[HammerJack]

What IS the Tarrasque, a monster that was published in an AP volume, doing on a list of creatures not reprinted from Bestiary, anyway?

[PossibleCabbage]

HammerJack wrote:

What IS the Tarrasque, a monster that was published in an AP volume, doing on a list of creatures not reprinted from Bestiary, anyway?

I think because we had some people from Paizo saying they won't do anything with Tarrasque anymore.

[Garrett Guillotte]

I went through this list with a couple other PathfinderWiki editors and many of the ones listed as removed are very unlikely to have been permanently removed.

Like, aboleths clearly weren't removed, they had already been rolled into alghollthu/veiled masters. Neothelids will probably be recontextualized as seugathi variants in the future. Green hags were replaced with sweet (as also listed on the linked sheet). Skum were renamed to ulat-kini a while back. Inevitables are still mentioned in the GM Core glossary, but I don't know if that's in error.

[Captain Morgan]

Threads like these make me wish the forum had a longer edit window. There's a lot of unintentional misinformation in the OP which I'm sure RD would be willing to correct if the possibility was available. I even looked if there was a flag for corrections like that but didn't see one. RD, I'd encourage you to reach out to the mod team. Having all the corrections buried in the thread is bad business.

[Driftbourne]

Dream Spider looks to be a Paizo creation, the drug Shiver is now listed a legacy as well. But looks like the entire category of drugs has not made it to the remaster so might be why Dream Spiders and Shiver are missing for now.

[Benjamin Tait]

We even have art in the GM Core of what looks like a basic Alghollthu (Aboleth), and I'm sure they'll just rename and rework the Deva that didn't make the cut, since they spared the Astral Deva in a new form.
EDIT: Looking at this list again, why do they think the Wemmuth is gone forever? That's a Paizo 2e original.

[dirkdragonslayer]

Veltharis wrote:

Kelseus wrote:

Even some of the D&D creatures may make a come back in one form or another.

Per James Jacobs, even a Drider could be in Remaster

Similar to "Medusa" being used as the name for a type of creature rather than a singular individual, "Arachne" seems to have taken up the mantle of "public domain spider-centaur" in a lot of circles.

Maybe they can combine the story niches of the Drider and Web Lurker. Spider centaurs that cultivate "herds" or nests of large spiders in the darklands.

[Garrett Guillotte]

Benjamin Tait wrote:

Looking at this list again, why do they think the Wemmuth is gone forever? That's a Paizo 2e original.

Same as the rest of the list, I'd guess. An assumption that absence from Monster Core = removal from canon, instead of a sign that they didn't require significant changes from pre-Remaster content to still work.

The spreadsheet would've worked a lot better if it either cited sources confirming removal or didn't default to stating _Removed_ when the status wasn't confirmed.