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This thread is related to my earlier Rasping Rifts Planar Traits thread (https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43ydv?Rasping-Rifts-Planar-Traits) in that I want to know what a combination of the two layers might be like?
Specifically, should I expect it to be an infinite thing (because the Rasping Rifts might be infinite) or should it be finite because at least one of the layers (the Ivory Labyrinth) is finite?
One of my gaming groups will start an "After the Campaign" post-WotR AP thing.
As both Deskari and Baphomet were killed in our game, that leaves two layers without a ruler.
Since the party Paladin of Iomedae was the one who killed both demon lords permanently, he seems to have the best claim on both of these realms.
Of course he does not intend to become a demon lord and rule over a bunch of demons but, instead, he'd like to take them over and "move" them out of the Abyss to a new place.
Not sure if he wants to incorporate them into an existing plane like Heaven or Nirvanna, or make them into a separate plane altogether in the Astral with planar traits that are more to his liking?
If he decides to move them into Heaven or Nirvanna, the combination would be finite because they could just be a deific realm in either plane - a messy one at first, but eventually it/they could be cleansed with a lot of work and help from some other Empyreal Lords and maybe a deity or two.
If he does decide to make his own plane instead, that's when my question about what a combination of the two might look like could come into play.
I suppose he *could* make it a two-layer plane like D&D's Bytopia, in which case one layer could be finite and the other could be infinite, or he could choose to make them one singular plane like Nirvana is. That's when the plane's size comes into question.
In any event, yes, I am aware that the Paladin will have to find a way to "cleanse" both of these layers and destroy any corrupting influences of the layers themselves before they corrupt him first.
Something to keep in mind, your Paladin will have to fight off rivals for the claim, LOTS of other demons are going to want to take the realms, and the territory of the abyss will only bow to those with the will to dominate it. The Rasping Rifts and Ivory Labyrinth are finite, but the realms of demon lords can be big enough to equal the size of multiple planets. The Ivory Labyrinth was originally a part of hell, so it is within the lore to "steal," transfer, and change parts of other planes. As to how the realms will look like or interact, if the Paladin is TRUELY the master, then he can remake the very geography and appearance of both realms turning them into what ever he wants them to be. Not sure if this helps, just my 2 copper.
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Something to keep in mind, your Paladin will have to fight off rivals for the claim, LOTS of other demons are going to want to take the realms, and the territory of the abyss will only bow to those with the will to dominate it. The Rasping Rifts and Ivory Labyrinth are finite, but the realms of demon lords can be big enough to equal the size of multiple planets. The Ivory Labyrinth was originally a part of hell, so it is within the lore to "steal," transfer, and change parts of other planes. As to how the realms will look like or interact, if the Paladin is TRUELY the master, then he can remake the very geography and appearance of both realms turning them into what ever he wants them to be. Not sure if this helps, just my 2 copper.
Thanks.
I'd be further interested in your source that says the Rasping Rifts are a limited in size layer.
Book 5 of the WotR AP (Herald of the Ivory Labyrinth) makes it clear the Ivory Labyrinth has a limited size (and it even describes its shape), but I can find nothing that tells me about the size or shape (other than the fact it has a lot of canyons) of the Rasping Rifts.
I'd be further interested in your source that says the Rasping Rifts are a limited in size layer.
I do not have a specific source that says it is not, I can only point to what is said in general about the realms of other demon lords. All of the DLs that have been flushed out are stated as having colossal, but finite realms. Even lamashtu, a straight up FULL DEITY, has a finite realm and she is LEAGUES beyond Deskari in power and influence. Sorry if I cannot give a direct answer, that is the best I got, and short of a big wig from Pazio itself, you might not be able to get a "yes or no" answer. The Rasping Rifts tend to be only mentioned in passing when the books bring it up.
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I'd be further interested in your source that says the Rasping Rifts are a limited in size layer.I do not have a specific source that says it is not, I can only point to what is said in general about the realms of other demon lords. All of the DLs that have been flushed out are stated as having colossal, but finite realms. Even lamashtu, a straight up FULL DEITY, has a finite realm and she is LEAGUES beyond Deskari in power and influence. Sorry if I cannot give a direct answer, that is the best I got, and short of a big wig from Pazio itself, you might not be able to get a "yes or no" answer. The Rasping Rifts tend to be only mentioned in passing when the books bring it up.
Understood and it makes sense. Thanks again.
Two finite layers.
So the dilemma is whether to remove them from the Abyss and combine them into one bigger, but still finite layer, or remove them both and create a smaller, finite analog of Bytopia?
Decisions, decisions
So the dilemma is whether to remove them from the Abyss and combine them into one bigger, but still finite layer, or remove them both and create a smaller, finite analog of Bytopia?
I think that is something for you and your Paladin to discuss, but as I understand it, both are viable. Quintessence can be terrifyingly mutable. It will take time mind you, but it can be molded into virtually anything.
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It would also be possible that if he could make the layer Neutral Good enough and match Bytopia, that is removed from the Abyss and is added to the plane of Bytopia, expanding that plane. Rasping Rifts might get a name change.
It would probably be much harder for him to maintain it (as a mortal) as its own separate plane. Very powerful casters could create a demi-plane, but that's far different than its own plane, and much, much smaller and short-lived without paying thousands of gp.
But if he planes to stay there and maintain it as the ruler, it's definitely between you and them.
In Pathfinder, there is no Bytopia (or its analog)...yet.