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Phoebus Alexandros |
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Precise Strike (Ex) (Advanced Class Guide pg. 57): ... Any creature that is immune to sneak attacks is immune to the additional damage granted by precise strike, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from the additional damage of a precise strike. This additional damage is precision damage, and isn't multiplied on a critical hit.
Emphasis mine.
Hilt Hammer (Ex) (Chronicle of Legends pg. 5): .. An attack altered this way deals only half the normal damage from precise strike, but this damage is not treated as precision damage. ...
Again, emphasis mine.
Given that the damage done while using hilt hammer isn't precision, does this mean it would be multiplied on a confirmed critical hit?
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Hilt Hammer (Ex): Precise strikes with a slender blade do little to hinder amorphous or incorporeal creatures; when encountering such threats, some swashbucklers abandon precision in favor of brutish strikes. At 3rd level, the swashbuckler can activate this deed before rolling the attack roll when making an attack that would benefit from precise strike. An attack altered this way deals only half the normal damage from precise strike, but this damage is not treated as precision damage. This deed alters (but does not replace) the precise strike deed and replaces one other 3rd-level deed.
RAW, it is.
RAI, I think it is intended to negate only the abilities that stop precision damage.
Precision damage hasn't ever been adequately defined in the rules. There are plenty of snippets of rules about it, but never something comprehensive.
BTW, idiotingly strictly RAW, it can't be activated: "can activate this deed before rolling the attack roll when making an attack that would benefit from precise strike". An attack against a target immune from precision damage doesn't benefit from precise strike.
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Derklord |
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I think that Hilt Hammer's damage can crit, under the principle of "text that does nothing isn't rule text". The combat rules says "Precision damage (such as from a rogue’s sneak attack class feature) and additional damage dice from special weapon qualities (such as flaming) are not multiplied when you score a critical hit." (CRB pg. 184), which makes the "and isn't multiplied on a critical hit" part of Precise Strike's description not change how the ability works. Therefore, that part is reminder text and not rule relevant, we can treat it as not present. When Hammer Hilt changes the abiliy to not deal precision damage, no rule text prevents it from being able to crit.
BTW, idiotingly strictly RAW, it can't be activated: "can activate this deed before rolling the attack roll when making an attack that would benefit from precise strike". An attack against a target immune from precision damage doesn't benefit from precise strike.
I don't think this is "strictly RAW", because it relies on a questionable interpretation of what "benefit" means. You have to chose to use the deed before the attack roll is made, but it's possible to only know whether the target actually can take damage from (regular) Precise Strike after the damage is rolled. For an extreme example, a 3rd elvel Metamorph Alchemist has 25% chance to ignore precision dmaage, if that triggers, the attack did not benefit from Precise Strike. So what, do we roll that ability when beign attacked by a Swashbuckler with Hilt Hammer, to see if the SB was allowed to activate the deed? But that decision has already been made and considered valid, so we basically have to go back in time...
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Diego Rossi wrote:BTW, idiotingly strictly RAW, it can't be activated: "can activate this deed before rolling the attack roll when making an attack that would benefit from precise strike". An attack against a target immune from precision damage doesn't benefit from precise strike.I don't think this is "strictly RAW", because it relies on a questionable interpretation of what "benefit" means. You have to chose to use the deed before the attack roll is made, but it's possible to only know whether the target actually can take damage from (regular) Precise Strike after the damage is rolled. For an extreme example, a 3rd elvel Metamorph Alchemist has 25% chance to ignore precision dmaage, if that triggers, the attack did not benefit from Precise Strike. So what, do we roll that ability when beign attacked by a Swashbuckler with Hilt Hammer, to see if the SB was allowed to activate the deed? But that decision has already been made and considered valid, so we basically have to go back in time...
"Idiotingly strict RAW". As you point out, against targets that have a % chance of negating the precision damage there is no problem activating it, but against targets like oozes, that always negate it it is another matter.
What I did want to point out wasn't that the option will do nothing, but that it is badly written.![](/WebObjects/Frameworks/Ajax.framework/WebServerResources/wait30.gif)
Java Man |
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Hmm, whether or not this can crit isn't a big deal. Since most (all?) swashbuckler weapons are x2 criticals and the bonus damage is halved when using hilt hammer... And, second point, the primary intent seems to be to get bonus damage against foes immune to precision damage, and immunity to precision damage is (so far as I know) grouped with immunity to critical hits.
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Phoebus Alexandros |
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Now I'm finding myself searching through online bestiaries, AON, and the various types and subtypes to see if that's the case. With that in mind, Elementals, Incorporeals, and Oozes are obviously immune to both... but Aeons are not... and only a suspiciously low number of monsters come back on searches for "precision damage" in the Archives of Nethys search function.