Eidolons and equipment : yes / no?

[Natan Linggod 327]

I'm looking for clarification on whether Eidolons can use mundane equipment and/or magical consumables.

I know they can only wear/use magic items with the Eidolon tag BUT does that mean if they try to drink a bit of water it just pours straight through them?
Will a blanket be repelled (like a magnet) if you try to cover an Eidolon with it?

How does an Eidolon use it's skills if it can't use a mundane tool?

Has there been any official clarification?

[SuperBidi]

For magical/alchemical consumables, they can't use them by themselves. But you can deliver a potion/elixir to an Eidolon.

Now, for non magical equipment, there's an issue in the rules. But I think people tend to allow mundane equipment as otherwise it'd break verisimilitude far too much with ridiculous questions like: Can my Eidolon open a door?

But if you don't know, ask your GM.

[breithauptclan]

SuperBidi wrote:

Now, for non magical equipment, there's an issue in the rules. But I think people tend to allow mundane equipment as otherwise it'd break verisimilitude far too much with ridiculous questions like: Can my Eidolon open a door?

The bigger problem with not allowing non-magical equipment is with toolkits. It makes Skilled Partner into a trap option since a lot of the skill feats that you would want require using toolkits. Like medical kits, thief's tools, or even a crowbar.

See here and here for previous discussions about this particular topic.

[aobst128]

Yeah, I had a concept for a medic eidolon that went with healing plaster to use with battle medicine in lieu of healers tools because of the apparent restrictions. Although, a clump of dirt might technically be an item too. *Shrug

[Natan Linggod 327]

SuperBidi wrote:

For magical/alchemical consumables, they can't use them by themselves. But you can deliver a potion/elixir to an Eidolon.

Now, for non magical equipment, there's an issue in the rules. But I think people tend to allow mundane equipment as otherwise it'd break verisimilitude far too much with ridiculous questions like: Can my Eidolon open a door?

But if you don't know, ask your GM.

I am the GM so I will probably rule as common sense says to me but I was hoping they'd caught and fixed this little weirdness.

Feels weird to me that a potion won't work if it drinks by itself but will work if you feed it to them. *cue anime Ahhhh feeding scene*

I think I'll rule that they can use any mundane item (assuming correct body shape) and any magic item in their hands functions in it's mundane capacity but not magical.

[SuperBidi]

Natan Linggod 327 wrote:

Feels weird to me that a potion won't work if it drinks by itself but will work if you feed it to them. *cue anime Ahhhh feeding scene*

They made this rule to prevent some shenanigans.

Eidolons can have as many hands as needed, allowing them to hold a great quantity of potions/elixirs. And Eidolons can increase their reach easily through size increases. So you can end up with an item dispenser with an excellent reach making the Summoner Dedication a must have for Chirurgeon Alchemists, for example. That would be a real issue.

[Sanityfaerie]

SuperBidi wrote:

Natan Linggod 327 wrote:

Feels weird to me that a potion won't work if it drinks by itself but will work if you feed it to them. *cue anime Ahhhh feeding scene*

They made this rule to prevent some shenanigans.

Eidolons can have as many hands as needed, allowing them to hold a great quantity of potions/elixirs. And Eidolons can increase their reach easily through size increases. So you can end up with an item dispenser with an excellent reach making the Summoner Dedication a must have for Chirurgeon Alchemists, for example. That would be a real issue.

Number of Eidolon hands is also in question. Arguably, they have no spare "hands", and the only manipulators they've got are their two attacks. This stuff really matters when you start grappling, and it is currently entirely unclear.

[Temperans]

Eidolon, familiars, and animal companions were writen in such a way to prevent anything that someone might even slightly consider "strong".

So no if you followed RAW they cannot use items because that would be too "strong". But you as the GM can say "this rules are dumb" and let them use items anyway.

For evidence, every single time someone thought that they could get more out of the familiar they came out with an FAQ saying that no it does not work.

[Sanityfaerie]

Temperans wrote:

Eidolon, familiars, and animal companions were writen in such a way to prevent anything that someone might even slightly consider "strong".

So no if you followed RAW they cannot use items because that would be too "strong". But you as the GM can say "this rules are dumb" and let them use items anyway.

For evidence, every single time someone thought that they could get more out of the familiar they came out with an FAQ saying that no it does not work.

Ehh... Eidolons are still entirely functional as-is for standard Summoners (archetypes not so much). They have a lot of weird, annoying immersion-breaking limitations around the edge uses, but as long as you don't try to get any kind of creative with them, they do fine.

Familiars were the ones that really got shafted by all of this.

[Errenor]

Natan Linggod 327 wrote:

I think I'll rule that they can use any mundane item (assuming correct body shape) and any magic item in their hands functions in it's mundane capacity but not magical.

Alchemical items also have activations and aren't magical :)

[Ravingdork]

Sanityfaerie wrote:

Familiars were the ones that really got shafted by all of this.

Fo sho yo.

[Temperans]

Sanityfaerie wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Eidolon, familiars, and animal companions were writen in such a way to prevent anything that someone might even slightly consider "strong".

So no if you followed RAW they cannot use items because that would be too "strong". But you as the GM can say "this rules are dumb" and let them use items anyway.

For evidence, every single time someone thought that they could get more out of the familiar they came out with an FAQ saying that no it does not work.

Ehh... Eidolons are still entirely functional as-is for standard Summoners (archetypes not so much). They have a lot of weird, annoying immersion-breaking limitations around the edge uses, but as long as you don't try to get any kind of creative with them, they do fine.

Familiars were the ones that really got shafted by all of this.

The point is that unless specifically allowed, its generally better to lean on the side of "no they can't".

But yes I agree, as long as you don't do anything creative.

[Natan Linggod 327]

" Don't do anything creative" seems to go against the general purpose of imagination gaming imo...

don't do anything game breaking might be a better way to word it. :)

Errenor wrote:

Alchemical items also have activations and aren't magical :)

I know technically (consumable) is an 'activation' but that is problematic in itself.

I refuse to accept that I am incapable of gaining the effects of alcohol or coffee without 'activating' them. Drinking something isn't some kind of special activity.

Yes those both have the [consumable] tag :P

As for the eidolon potion dispenser, afaik nothing RAW stops this anyway. Unless you rule the eidolon can't even pick up and hand a potion to someone , which iirc doesn't count as 'using' it, they can still function as a battlefield vending machine.

[graystone]

Natan Linggod 327 wrote:

As for the eidolon potion dispenser, afaik nothing RAW stops this anyway. Unless you rule the eidolon can't even pick up and hand a potion to someone , which iirc doesn't count as 'using' it, they can still function as a battlefield vending machine.

It DOES though, if they can't activate them: there is no action gain between a potion/elixir a your belt and one handed to you if that person has to activate it: it's the feeding that can gain you actions and someone with something in both hands cannot benefit from them if the eidolon can't activate the potion/elixir to feed them.

[Natan Linggod 327]

graystone wrote:

It DOES though, if they can't activate them: there is no action gain between a potion/elixir a your belt and one handed to you if that person has to activate it: it's the feeding that can gain you actions and someone with something in both hands cannot benefit from them if the eidolon can't activate the potion/elixir to feed them.

Hmm I'll have to go scour the rules again. I've always allowed someone to pour a potion into someone elses mouth, regardless if they (the target) have hands free.

That could just be something leftover in my brain from previous systems I'll admit.

[SuperBidi]

Natan Linggod 327 wrote:

graystone wrote:

It DOES though, if they can't activate them: there is no action gain between a potion/elixir a your belt and one handed to you if that person has to activate it: it's the feeding that can gain you actions and someone with something in both hands cannot benefit from them if the eidolon can't activate the potion/elixir to feed them.

Hmm I'll have to go scour the rules again. I've always allowed someone to pour a potion into someone elses mouth, regardless if they (the target) have hands free.

That could just be something leftover in my brain from previous systems I'll admit.

No, you're right, you can feed someone with a potion. Just Eidolons can't as they can't activate magic items (I personally consider Elixirs the same way than potion, having the ability to feed one but not the other would be properly ridiculous).

[graystone]

Natan Linggod 327 wrote:

graystone wrote:

It DOES though, if they can't activate them: there is no action gain between a potion/elixir a your belt and one handed to you if that person has to activate it: it's the feeding that can gain you actions and someone with something in both hands cannot benefit from them if the eidolon can't activate the potion/elixir to feed them.

Hmm I'll have to go scour the rules again. I've always allowed someone to pour a potion into someone elses mouth, regardless if they (the target) have hands free.

That could just be something leftover in my brain from previous systems I'll admit.

Relevant text: "You can activate a potion with an Interact action as you drink it or feed it to another creature. {Core Rulebook pg. 562}

"You usually Interact to activate an elixir as you drink it or feed it to another creature." {Core Rulebook pg. 546}

This means that if eidolons can't activate items, they can't feed people items like potions, elixirs, food, ect as they require an activation action.

[Temperans]

Natan Linggod 327 wrote:

" Don't do anything creative" seems to go against the general purpose of imagination gaming imo...

don't do anything game breaking might be a better way to word it. :)

Errenor wrote:

Alchemical items also have activations and aren't magical :)

I know technically (consumable) is an 'activation' but that is problematic in itself.

I refuse to accept that I am incapable of gaining the effects of alcohol or coffee without 'activating' them. Drinking something isn't some kind of special activity.

Yes those both have the [consumable] tag :P

As for the eidolon potion dispenser, afaik nothing RAW stops this anyway. Unless you rule the eidolon can't even pick up and hand a potion to someone , which iirc doesn't count as 'using' it, they can still function as a battlefield vending machine.

You can be as imaginative and creative with your character as you want. But by RAW non of that is allowed unless allowed by the GM actively going against the rules.

(Also, don't misunderstand, I am not against being creative I am against the way they wrote things to be restrictive. You can only knowingly break a rule if you know what the rule is in the first place.)

[Natan Linggod 327]

graystone wrote:

Relevant text: "You can activate a potion with an Interact action as you drink it or feed it to another creature. {Core Rulebook pg. 562}

"You usually Interact to activate an elixir as you drink it or feed it to another creature." {Core Rulebook pg. 546}

This means that if eidolons can't activate items, they can't feed people items like potions, elixirs, food, ect as they require an activation action.

Looks like there's going to be a new houserule at my table. :D

I'm going to allow someone to activate a potion/elixir as they drink it even if someone else is pouring it for them.

thanks everyone for the discussion btw

[Deriven Firelion]

But according to the designer, the eidolon is a summoned, separate creature, so it must be able to use mundane equipment.

Though given how the rules are written, who knows. It seems to me it was intended for the eidolon to be able to perform skill actions with tools and thus should be able to use them.

Main thing the equipment rules seem intended for is to prevent magic item abuse or let them use weapons that would up their damage to reasonable levels.

Hopefully your GM can see when something is reasonable and when something is probably pushing it. I'm sure allowing the eidolon to use medical tools or thieves tools should be fine.

[YuriP]

Currently I do the same thing that Runes do but with tools.
If an Eidolon need a tool to use a skill it "magically" clones the tools that Summoner have including the item bonuses.

And I won't be surprised if a designer would done something similar to this in an errata once this prevents a lot of rewriting and questioning about what itens the Eidolon can or cannot use.

[Temperans]

Deriven Firelion wrote:

But according to the designer, the eidolon is a summoned, separate creature, so it must be able to use mundane equipment.

Though given how the rules are written, who knows. It seems to me it was intended for the eidolon to be able to perform skill actions with tools and thus should be able to use them.

Main thing the equipment rules seem intended for is to prevent magic item abuse or let them use weapons that would up their damage to reasonable levels.

Hopefully your GM can see when something is reasonable and when something is probably pushing it. I'm sure allowing the eidolon to use medical tools or thieves tools should be fine.

No according the designers the eidolon is a MANIFESTED "separate" (not really) creature, it possibly could use mundane items because the gear section says "no magic items, except those with the eidolon trait". But no other companion is really able to use normal items, look at companions who can only use items with the companion trait.

But yes I agree all the rules regarding eidolon were written to prevent abuse. If anything seems like a loop hole, it probably should not be allowed by the "too good to be true" rule.