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This may sound weird, but I doubt I will ever play a kineticist that goes for all 6 elements but I am really happy that it looks like they balanced specialized generalist really well. I personally prefer the idea of specialization with 1 or maybe up to 3 based on a fun theme or concept, the more stacked on gets a bit conceptually unwieldy unless if I wanted to go for the Avatar vibe. but the fact that it does look mechanically fun means that maybe one day I will change my mind if the right concept comes to me. + It means the people who do have a ton of character ideas for it means that it will work for them.
Oh yeah, two elements feels perfect for me. It goes from 6 possibilities to 15, it's available at first level, it's tight enough thematically to make character concepts easy to come up with, it opens up enough impulses to never run out, and the four junctures it still gets mean there's enough to take two for each element. Plus, as an added treat, there's one hybrid impulse.
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Now I Wonder how the multiclass archetype is going to look like
It's probably something like 'you gain elemental blast, kineticist class DC and a single Gate' which is probably rather Solid for early Game
But one will probably have to Invest 2 feats to become master and that's your Power ceiling
(I really hope they do away with the 1/2 level as max for feats in the remaster, even If I don't expect it)
I just saw that the fire elemental blast only has fire as its damage type, whereas all the other elements get a choice of 2 whenever they attack. This has converted my hype into fear that they're going to mess up fire focused builds again. Only having 1 damage type looks really bad, especially when it's the most resisted and immuned out of the other elements, that fire in particular loses there feels so mean. At best I can only see them making a feat tax or something to help with that but it still feels unnecessarily mean towards the element to make them tax in that scenario. I'm scared.
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It says: Level (+4) The damage increases by one die (from 1d6 to 2d6, for instance). So the damage increases at 5th, 9th, 13th and 17th level.Huh... Elemental Blast sounds decent, and it scales on its own :)Not only decent it becomes very good.
A melee lvl20 1d8 kineticist is able (that can be increased to 1d10) to do 1d8 + 7 (con) + 5(str) + 10(fire weakness) is almost a draconic barbarian damage bonus! This is huge, because this is comes only from the blast!
The other fantastic thing that we asked during playtest is that each element has 2 damage types including 2 energy ones. Electricity for air and Cold for water!
You'r right I forgot the additional dices. But my focus was in the "additional" damage from str + con + weakness.
I am a little concerned that the two action blast probably needs to scale a little at later levels to remain competitive with the one action one but that probably nit picking and I haven't seen the final product.
At later levels you probably won't use blasts that much because the other impulses available.
Now, powerwise what we know about elemental blast sounds awesome. But I really don't like that you apperently need to invest in strength if you want a high damage kineticist, and it makes me wish even more for something like a psychokineticist class archetype. I just really want a viable mentally strong and physically weak kineticist in pf2e.Str only in melee.
Yes this maybe strange at first glance but it's basically to give some advantage to melee kineticists.
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one action blast will probably remain a mainstay if only because you can use one when you reload your element (also can be third action for any two action saving throw impulse turns) where yeah two action blast will probably end up getting replaced with impulses
My main hope is that earth or even metal gets something that is an equivalent to being in heavier armour (Ideally not as a stance impulse, I already hate that first turn low AC on mountain stance in my current game where I'm being allowed to swap when rage comes out), I'd rather not have to pump strength dex and con for melee kineticist (technically don't have to pump str on it but without a good mod there might as well stay ranged)
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Metal Preview is up at Wargamer
Needles of Metal... is gonna be OP as a cantrip O_O
Now I Wonder how the multiclass archetype is going to look like
It's probably something like 'you gain elemental blast, kineticist class DC and a single Gate' which is probably rather Solid for early Game
I think the biggest selling point is having an at-will "pistol with unlimited ammo". That's also why I assume cantrips have been pretty popular as an archetype selection.
Havign a cantrip or a Blast... is one less manufacturered weapon to carry, let alone ammo to purchase ^^;
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Metal Preview is up at WargamerNeedles of Metal... is gonna be OP as a cantrip O_O
Cantrips get buffed iirc
This probably just happens to be first damage cantrip we SeeIt is good from our current Point of view, May still be good later but I won't expect it to be overshadowing all other Cantrips with the remaster
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If they can give us a cantrip that require a spell attack roll for Electricity, "Air" and "Earth", I'll be happy as a Magus :)
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Now I Wonder how the multiclass archetype is going to look like
It's probably something like 'you gain elemental blast, kineticist class DC and a single Gate' which is probably rather Solid for early Game
Probably just access to the 1-action version, which gates out adding an alternate ability modifier to damage
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Very hyped for the new metal element. Can't wait to play a dwarven metal kineticist. I'm still considering whether to mix some fire in there and go full forge-smith stereotype and feel like it's gonna depend on how delicious the metal junction is.
With the recently spoiled option to add Con + Str to melee kineticist strikes but switch to ranged at-will for only the cost of str in that equation (or even go to 1 action at only the cost of con!) I see a lot of versatility in getting damage "on the board" no matter what the circumstances the kineticist finds themselves in are.
I'm also hoping to see the metal element follow the general analysis of the blog post and give a moderate amount of mobility and trickery for a very versatile or dynamic melee kineticist build. To delve into a bit of speculative territory: the above versatility of attack form, combined with the speculative mobility/trickery options, might result in an overall level of damage output that I think will be competitive with martials without overshadowing them. I don't see competing for single-hit numbers from a fighter or giant barbarian, nor competing with flurry rangers when they get to "unload" their full attacks, but I believe the ability to avoid action taxes from moving into position or designating a hunt prey target could result in competitive overall numbers long term and I'm very excited about that idea.
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Channel element also allowing a blast or stance is huge, and was the thing I needed to know to see the class will be okay in the numbers department.
Though we've only seen two, impulse junctions we've seen so far are so cool and make me even more excited. Air being able to step/move half speed on a 2/3 action impulse (before or after the impulse) from level one is huge. The feat that let you do that in the playtest was level 14 and an awesome option. The fire one also seems good but we do have to see actual impulses to see how good, but if fire impulses are as good or better than the water ones that is potentially a big damage bump. I hope the others are as exciting.
Also blown away by gate junctions. I hoped there would be an option to either get an impulse feat or expand into a new element. But you get an impulse feat no matter what you pick, and can either expand to a new element or make elements you can already channel better (or expand in other ways like skills). Having 4 extra impulses gives a lot more wiggle room to have archetypes or just more impulses.
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Where can I read all these kineticist previews people are talking about?
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Where can I read all these kineticist previews people are talking about?
They're all being linked in the product page for Rage of Elements.
There's actually only one Kineticist one via this annoying 22 minute video, the others are elemental chapter previews.
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Honestly i'm just glad the energy type blasts are back. The playtest made me very scared that lightning and ice were out of the picture, but now that it is confirmed to be back i have almost no possible regrets.
Except maybe the probable absence of the Interweave Composite Blast Teamwork feat that i absolutely loved both thematically and mechanically but hey. What can you do.
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<snip>... if we're stuck with 1D6 HD/light armor capped at expert (so essentially a crit magnet without the HP pool of a comparable barbarian).
Hopefully subscribers will be more generous in sharing class details so we can get a better understanding here.
This feels like a pretty doom-and-gloom view considering the 1e version AND the 2e playtest were d8 HD AND the playtest got light armor mastery. The class is going to have the highest con available so is roughly equivalent to a minimum of a beefy d10 class before you put any significant effort at all into it.
Will be happy to be generous in sharing class details when my PDF arrives :D
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[...] Will be happy to be generous in sharing class details when my PDF arrives :D
Feel free to share the entire class, especially any bits that contain the word "Air" or "Fire" :]
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Based on the way RoE has been described and marketed I'm 99 percent sure you're setting yourself up for disappointment if you're expecting anything outside the 6 described elements and their combinations for the kineticist.
Aetherkinesis (telekinesis) is still canon, hopefully they port it well.
Chaokinesis (void/gravity/negative energy) is also still canon, hopefully it to gets ported well.Then there is also the offshoots: Elysiokineticist (elysium + Ethereal)
Psammokineticist (sand)
Blight (radiation)
Aeon (telekinesis but with aeon stones)
Blood
Leshy (leshy controlling themselves in wild new ways)
Also, I think there's plenty of room for another 1 or 2 Impulse classes that draw power from other planes. Something that draws from all the transitive planes (Shadow, First World, Ether, and Astral) seems like a great starting point, and would cover many of those options Temperans mentions. It would take some creative work to make it not feel like a Kineticist knock-off (my preference being that this either become the base of a Skilled Martial/Ninja class, with an emphasis on single-target damage over versatility), but I have confidence this team could do it.
I can't wait to get the full details on the class and see how all the parts work together, so I can start imagining new uses for the impulse mechanic.
Edit: fixed the quoted text so the people that said the smart things are properly accredited.
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One thing that will be curious to see is "how many pages does each element take up" since that's what's going to keep "more kineticist elements" out of future books.
Like one reason Paizo has printed many more archetypes than "new class feats" in non-core releases, is that an archetype is relevant to many classes but "new barbarian feats" are only relevant to barbarians.
What makes new kineticist elements possible is that these aren't necessarily choices you have to make at level 1 (since you can choose to fork your gate at appropriate levels) so have a better chance of inclusion than "new barbarian instincts" or "new sorcerer bloodlines". But if each element is 8 pages, I would forget about it.
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In RoE each element gets two pages of impulses (unless I'm not understanding what you mean). I don't really expect more anytime soon given the track record for expanding classes, but am very happy with what we've seen so far.
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Nonats said in the end of his video that he will be making a full dive video, just that because of the volume of kineticist it'll take him a week to make (also it's probably good for his channel to spread things).
So we should have more details, numbers wise, in a week or so.
I hope he makes the archetype analysis too. I'm very curious how it will work.
One thing that will be curious to see is "how many pages does each element take up" since that's what's going to keep "more kineticist elements" out of future books.
Like one reason Paizo has printed many more archetypes than "new class feats" in non-core releases, is that an archetype is relevant to many classes but "new barbarian feats" are only relevant to barbarians.
What makes new kineticist elements possible is that these aren't necessarily choices you have to make at level 1 (since you can choose to fork your gate at appropriate levels) so have a better chance of inclusion than "new barbarian instincts" or "new sorcerer bloodlines". But if each element is 8 pages, I would forget about it.
Based in what we get with Water Impulses probably is 2 pages per element.
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I hope he makes the archetype analysis too. I'm very curious how it will work.Nonats said in the end of his video that he will be making a full dive video, just that because of the volume of kineticist it'll take him a week to make (also it's probably good for his channel to spread things).
So we should have more details, numbers wise, in a week or so.
Predicting it here: Kineticist archetype will grant you a single elemental gate, that you can use a modified gather element (doesn't let you use 1 action impulse when you gather) and the associated kinetic blast.
-It'll have Basic and Advanced Kinesis as the feat granting feats
-A feat to increase damage of blast (my guess level 8 and 16 either auto scale or 2 feats)
-A feat to give you either a dual gate or a gate junction
-One last feat granting Master Fortitude if you have Expert.
Now to wait and see how my predictions turn out
I could definitely imagine a melee hybrid impulse class that would have their "gather element" secondary action be "standard martial strike", and possibly not get a blast at all. They'd probably be doing a lot more with boosts to their weapon attacks, and not as much with direct attacks, though. They might not much care about their class DC at all.
Only problem is that they'd wind up smooshed between Swashbuckler, Monk, Magus, and Kineticist, and I'm not sure there's enough space in there for them to differentiate themselves in interesting ways crunchwise.
Actually... it might be better as an Archetype. You have your element, you have the (martialish) things that you can do to gather your aura for that element, you have the impulses you can use it on. Possibly it requires you to "fill" a hand when gathered, or just that you have a free hand, but can still qualify for other "need a free hand" things. Possibly a standard archetype size, possibly a standard archetype plus one page of impulses.
On the other side of the archetype coin, I expect that the base kineticist archetype will make your effective level lower than your actual level for the purpose of archetype impulses. The only question is whether it will be viable/useful, or nerfed down to Summoner-style "Well, technically you could, if you really wanted to."
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On the other side of the archetype coin, I expect that the base kineticist archetype will make your effective level lower than your actual level for the purpose of archetype impulses. The only question is whether it will be viable/useful, or nerfed down to Summoner-style "Well, technically you could, if you really wanted to."
I expect slower progression similar to archetype alchemist, but just by virtue of trained with +4 con being equivalent accuracy to master with +0 dex this should be a slam dunk for heavy armor martials as a backup, especially if you assume expert progression being possible. Only needing an accuracy item instead of a fully runed up weapon saves on money too while potentially giving you some 1/day utility spell.
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Nonats said in the end of his video that he will be making a full dive video, just that because of the volume of kineticist it'll take him a week to make (also it's probably good for his channel to spread things).
So we should have more details, numbers wise, in a week or so.
I hope he makes the archetype analysis too. I'm very curious how it will work.
Based in what we get with Water Impulses probably is 2 pages per element.One thing that will be curious to see is "how many pages does each element take up" since that's what's going to keep "more kineticist elements" out of future books.
Like one reason Paizo has printed many more archetypes than "new class feats" in non-core releases, is that an archetype is relevant to many classes but "new barbarian feats" are only relevant to barbarians.
What makes new kineticist elements possible is that these aren't necessarily choices you have to make at level 1 (since you can choose to fork your gate at appropriate levels) so have a better chance of inclusion than "new barbarian instincts" or "new sorcerer bloodlines". But if each element is 8 pages, I would forget about it.
I think it would actually be three to four pages for a new element: Two pages for impulses, one page for seven composite impulses, and up to one page for context and lore for the new element. If that can be condensed to a paragraph, it can fit on the composite page.
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I expect slower progression similar to archetype alchemist, but just by virtue of trained with +4 con being equivalent accuracy to master with +0 dex this should be a slam dunk for heavy armor martials as a backup, especially if you assume expert progression being possible. Only needing an accuracy item instead of a fully runed up weapon saves on money too while potentially giving you some 1/day utility spell.
Halt yer blatherin'! It's nae some twisty elemental thing! I be burnin' the truly wicked wi' the holy flame o' the goddess herself!
stalks off grumbling
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Kinetic Knight should 100% be a Kineticist archetype that removes ranged blasts but lets you wield a shield and armor.
In fact that archetype should had been the one to add Str to damage, not the default class.
I love Paizo, and what they've done with PF2. I really, really do... but they do still have that one issue.
I would encourage you to stop, step back, and seriously reconsider before you call for giving over something that you love into the hands of a class archetype.
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I mean, I want to see the class before I would figure out how an Kinetic Knight class archetype would work.
Since like the big thing the Kinetic Knight did in PF1 is it removed the burn cost of "Kinetic Blade" so you could use it every round from level 1. It seems like people can just do that now.
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I love that Kineticist gets extra damage in melee! It seems like you can stack up a pretty brutal aura on top of everything, so storming into close quarters seems like something with pretty good incentives.
Even from what we've seen, fire and water lets you make enemies off-guard and require balancing to move away while also giving them a weakness to your fire impulses. At the same time, you have a reusable defensive reaction and a one-action healing ability. It's a lot more exciting for me that PF1's Kinetic Knight was.
I hope he makes the archetype analysis too. I'm very curious how it will work.Nonats said in the end of his video that he will be making a full dive video, just that because of the volume of kineticist it'll take him a week to make (also it's probably good for his channel to spread things).
So we should have more details, numbers wise, in a week or so.
Predicting it here: Kineticist archetype will grant you a single elemental gate, that you can use a modified gather element (doesn't let you use 1 action impulse when you gather) and the associated kinetic blast.
-It'll have Basic and Advanced Kinesis as the feat granting feats
-A feat to increase damage of blast (my guess level 8 and 16 either auto scale or 2 feats)
-A feat to give you either a dual gate or a gate junction
-One last feat granting Master Fortitude if you have Expert.Now to wait and see how my predictions turn out
You don't need a feat to increase blast damage since that autoscales.
But I'm pretty sure that there will be a feat (probably level 13) to give you Expert Kineticist DC since that's what your attack bonus for Impulses is based on.
And there will probably be a separate impulse gaining feat.
I think I heard we get legendary proficiency with class dc on kineticist
judging by that I would assume that we can get master for impulses from the archetype on roughly the same level as spellcasters do
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I mean, I want to see the class before I would figure out how an Kinetic Knight class archetype would work.
Since like the big thing the Kinetic Knight did in PF1 is it removed the burn cost of "Kinetic Blade" so you could use it every round from level 1. It seems like people can just do that now.
Yup, kineticist who spend their 1st level general feat to get medium armor proficiency, and then get the sentinel archetype will be able to have their heavy armor. Take some feats that will likely give you the equivalent of shield block with your element, and you're effectively a kinetic knight.
I'm pessimistic, in general, but I'm willing to let more information come out and do real calculations to see how the thing benchmarks. I won't lie and say my first impressions are getting me super excited. I'd probably chalk that up to how sparse/disjointed the spoilers have been and the weird framing from the post playtest content that keeps saying things like spell attack roll/like a spell caster but not/etc. (is it a caster, martial, or a meh Frankenstein chassis like the war priest/alchemist, or something entirely new?).
The way I get excited is by seeing the mechanical linkages/concepts coming together to allow me to do "x" (could be damage, could be control, could be skills, w/e the niche is). But its hard to get excited about a cool potential build when all the relevant mechanics are still hidden to us. Flavour is cheap and easy to make work with almost any GM. Mechanically making changes to Paizo's rules is not.
So I'm running a bit behind here, because my access to video spoilers is currently nonexistent, but... well, Tide Hands makes a seriously impressive "Cantrip". Admittedly, it's overflow, so you need to recollect your aura on top of the two actions, but it sounds like you get to do something else with the action you use to do that, and one of the options for that something else (if I'm understanding this correctly) is "one-action basic blast". It sounds like those clock in as something that's not terrible for a half-cantrip/martial strike. Then, too, it sounds like there are going to be feats that let you get some other benefit on top of that for having fired off a two-action impulse. So... it sounds like basic attack rotation is going to be pretty respectable, even if it's not kicking anyone off the top spots, and six elements means that there's a fair bit of potential for flexibility in what you want that "pretty respectable" to look like.
Water, at least, seems to be pretty good at throwing around area effects, terrain manipulation, repositioning, and some heals.
One of the things I notice... I suspect that Kineticist is going to wind up very feat-hungry, and I mean that in a good way. With the possible exception of dedicated single-element types, there's always going to be one or two more impulses that you'd love to pick up but don't have the slots for... and at the same time, their nature means that the ones that you want aren't necessarily goign to be the ones that anyone else wants. I think it's going to lead to builds that are both a lot more focused and a lot more individual in some ways than other classes.
Like, I look at a Summoner Plant Eidolon, and I immediately think "tripper/grappler". I then go to build said Plant Summoner tripper/grappler, and I wind up something like three evolution feats short of where I really want to be. Effectively, my question becomes "which three of these do I give up?" Something very similar happens to me with a shield-based Paladin Champion, except there I think it's maybe four feats... but as soon as I've started looking at the Champion, and decided to use a shield, the "which four of these do I give up" is the only feat-based question I've got left.
By contrast, Kineticist has a huge number of options for impulses (if you open those options up), and they're all clearly useful and desirable but also not inherently a part of The Obvious Plan. It looks like it translates to and/or springs from a real flexibility of role. I think that the concept design phase is going to be a lot more important in this one - it's not just going to follow instantly from picking your basic class path and making one or two core build decisions.
Like... dedicated healer? Can you play a kineticist dedicated healer? Well, maybe not quite, but it looks like you can get a decent number of steps down that road... and then figure out what to combo it with.
I think it would actually be three to four pages for a new element: Two pages for impulses, one page for seven composite impulses, and up to one page for context and lore for the new element. If that can be condensed to a paragraph, it can fit on the composite page.
You'd also need to describe the benefits (I forget the new technical term) for specializing in that element via Widen the Gate selections and your impulse junction if you select it as sole element at 1st level.
I love that Kineticist gets extra damage in melee! It seems like you can stack up a pretty brutal aura on top of everything, so storming into close quarters seems like something with pretty good incentives.
Even from what we've seen, fire and water lets you make enemies off-guard and require balancing to move away while also giving them a weakness to your fire impulses. At the same time, you have a reusable defensive reaction and a one-action healing ability. It's a lot more exciting for me that PF1's Kinetic Knight was.
I don't think it gets extra damage in melee. It gets strength damage in melee, just like everything else. It also gets Con in melee or ranged if it spends the extra action. Nothing melee specific here.
I agree that fire and water combined start to do good things in melee at 9th level, but that's kind of late. You need 5th level to have both the fire impulse junction (boosted die damage on your fire impulse) and the aura passive (weakness to fire) and then 9th you can add water and pick up the water stance. Or delay getting one of those fire boosts to 9th if you start with water earlier.
Fire plus beneficial stance from another element will be one of the things I look at. The water one for off balance to enhance accuracy in melee/short range will be nice, expecially if (alas, at 13th) you pickup the crit speciality to put on persistent fire to go with your weakness aura.
I feel like the kineticist is "supposed" to be a mobile class, similar to a rogue or monk. I don't see them wearing heavy armor on a regular basis. Even then, it seems like impulses can provide AC bonuses depending on the element, making armor kinda redundant.
Again going back to my "unlimited ammo pistol" blast analogy, those kinds of users often seek cover and snipe opponents like modern law enforcers.
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I think a wood/water healer will be effective.
Oh, I definitely think they'd be effective... but I don't expect that you'll be able to build them dedicated. Like, you'll take three to healing impulses... and then have to figure out what you're doing with the rest of your build, because you won't really have any healing impulses left to take. It won't be a mistake, and you wont' be weak, but you'll have to find something else to do with your day on top of that.
Admittedly, you might be able to get close by starting with wood/water and then archetyping into Medic or something. Hm.
It'd actually look slightly different, going to Sentinel and then picking up heavy armor prof at third level, that is, for everyone who isn't human. To be honest though you may still delay that level if you were human anyway, depending on how tasty and poachable the first-level feats are.
You need to grab the medium armor proficiency first, or your heavy proficiency won't scale. Order actually matters here.
I feel like the kineticist is "supposed" to be a mobile class, similar to a rogue or monk. I don't see them wearing heavy armor on a regular basis. Even then, it seems like impulses can provide AC bonuses depending on the element, making armor kinda redundant.
Again going back to my "unlimited ammo pistol" blast analogy, those kinds of users often seek cover and snipe opponents like modern law enforcers.
I think some kineticists are supposed to be mobile. Water and Air certainly are. Earth? Maybe not so much.
One of the interesting things about the kineticist (from the grok I'm getting) is how very different the different builds are from one another
I think some kineticists are supposed to be mobile. Water and Air certainly are. Earth? Maybe not so much.
One of the interesting things about the kineticist (from the grok I'm getting) is how very different the different builds are from one another
Then again, all elements can go both ways.
- What if with Earth, you can rapidly move underground, Bugs Bunny style?- What if with Metal, you can adapt a quicksilver form?
- What if with Wood, you can sprout vines to swing from like Spider-Man?
Likewise, anchoring yourself with heavy armor while summoning a tornado, a whirlpool or fire storm... is equally possible.
I think some kineticists are supposed to be mobile. Water and Air certainly are. Earth? Maybe not so much.
One of the interesting things about the kineticist (from the grok I'm getting) is how very different the different builds are from one another
Then again, all elements can go both ways.
- What if with Earth, you can rapidly move underground, Bugs Bunny style?
- What if with Metal, you can adapt a quicksilver form?
- What if with Wood, you can sprout vines to swing from like Spider-Man?Likewise, anchoring yourself with heavy armor while summoning a tornado, a whirlpool or fire storm... is equally possible.
Yeah... except that in the playtest wrap-up post, "mobility" was one of the areas of potential focus, and some of the elements were good at it, and some weren't.
Air was a 4. Water was a 3. Fire and Metal were 2. Earth and Wood were 1 (ie, "not a thing"). I'm not seeing anything that would have made them change their minds on that one.
So it could be... but it probably isn't.
On the other hand, if you want a mobile kineticist? Well, just grab wind and water. You'll do fine.