|
One of the ways I build my character is based on a miniature. So I picked an Axolotl with a single sword and decided to make a Kobold and I wanted to pick a class that’s good at one handed weapons. I already had a Rogue and I already have several laughing Shadow Magus and Barbarian isn’t good at it and Ranger doesn’t seem to care much only dual wield or ranged for them and Fighter seems kind of boring…
So I ended up Swashbuckler… and it’s been kind of frustrating. I tend to play Pathfinder society or in the one adventure path I’m in nothing special is turned on (no FA, no Dual Class no nothing just basic rules) and honestly it’s a slog to do anything.
I thought the forum complainers might be wrong: because I was afraid to play a caster for so long due to negative internet stigma, then played a blaster sorcerer and it straight up just rocks. It just works. I don’t struggle with action economy or anything and it’s interesting and it’s not repetitive.
Well. The Swashbuckler sucks. If you’re not within 25 feet to try tumble through.. or 30 ft because Bon Mot (I’m Wit) then… no panache. You could use 2 movements one to get closer, one to tumble through for panache, and then confident finisher… but then you don’t have 20 AC from dueling parry. And I’ve been downed. A lot, and no I’m not running in solo I’m setting up flanking with my fellow melees for the flat footed bonus to both of us. Sometimes because it’s PFS it’s like oops all martials.
So the idea would be Bon Mot -> Confident Finisher -> Dueling Parry or Stride to Tumble Through to get closer -> CF -> DP. Or you know whatever, just basically set up for damage, do the damage, be defensive. However if it’s a bad game where I can’t roll above a 5 it just feels miserable and I guess that could be true for any martial, but for some reason it feels especially tilting to fail at panache over and over and over and you don’t even get the bonus movement speed unless you actually get panache..
It’s just been kind of a frustrating experience. Does it get better?
I just wanted a class that “just works” like the Sorcerer. I just use burning hands or horizon thunder Sphere or whatever damage spell and they roll and even if they succeed I still win anyway and they take some damage.
|
|
Well in my first paragraph I address why I’m not an elf, but I didn’t actually show the mini I’m using, so I’ll show it now: https://www.myminifactory.com/object/3d-print-aztec-axolotl-202557
I chose a Tunnelflood Kobold for the swim speed with Sailor background to represent being good with water, because it’s an amphibious miniature (axolotl are salamanders).
As previously explained I just wanted a class that’s good at using a one handed weapon with a free hand… because of the mini I’m using.
Also I didn’t get confused about my example of a class that “just works”. The Sorcerer doesn’t have to jump through any hoops, I just use a cantrip, or use a spell slot and something happens. I don’t need to make a roll to “turn on” before I can do anything else.
If it apparently doesn’t get better I may be better off rebuilding into a Fighter, but then I’m worried my combat routine will become even more static and I’ll get bored with the character.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It’s just been kind of a frustrating experience. Does it get better?
I just wanted a class that “just works” like the Sorcerer.
That is definitely not the expectation of Swashbuckler. Swashbuckler is high risk -> high reward.
I am currently playing two Swashbucklers. Both are level 1 currently. One (fencer style) is in PFS, and another (gymnast) is in a Discord game. I am thoroughly enjoying both characters.
To break down the math with some comparable action economy options:
A Champion (to pick a generic martial character) can use Stride to get into position, then use two actions to make two attacks. If they can't roll above a 5 and succeed at neither, then they do 0 damage. If they succeed at one, they do X damage. And if they succeed at both they do 2X damage.
A Fighter can use Power Attack for two actions. They only make one roll and add bonus damage. If they miss, the still do 0 damage. If they succeed at the attack roll, instead of doing X damage they do X+Y damage.
Swashbuckler can use two actions to make one attack with two d20 rolls. One a skill check, and the other an attack roll. If they fail at both, they do 0 damage - same as the Champion making two Strikes. If they succeed at the skill check and fail at the attack roll (assuming confident finisher), then they can do W damage - usually a rather trivial amount. At level 1 it is somewhere around 3 points of damage on average. If they fail at the skill check and succeed at the attack roll, then they can do X damage - again somewhat similar to the Champion succeeding at one Strike (usually a couple of points lower on the damage because of DEX focus and finesse weapons). But if they succeed at both, then they are doing X+Z damage - some astronomically large amount of d6 damage dice that will generally 1-shot an enemy in low level PFS play.
So... What is the chances of each of those outcomes happening?
With a 50% chance on every d20 roll (to estimate things easier), there is a 25% chance that both rolls fail, a 50% chance that one of the two rolls succeeds, and a 25% chance that both rolls succeed.
So the Champion has a 50% chance of one of the attacks succeeding, and a 25% chance of landing both hits. And only a 25% chance of completely missing.
The Fighter using Power Attack has a 50% chance of succeeding at the one roll and a 50% chance of missing.
The Swashbuckler though... Has a 25% chance of landing a finisher. And that is the only outcome that actually 'feels good'. Technically, landing a regular Strike isn't all that much behind the Champion landing one attack either. But humans are loss averse. If 3d6+1 was presented as an option, getting 1d6+1 as your result feels bad. Even worse is getting 0.5 * 2d6 => 3.
TL;DR: Swashbuckler is always going to trigger your loss aversion. More than other classes do. 3/4 of the time you won't be getting the outcome that you want.
|
|
I missed the mini part ( now I better understand it ), my bad.
I think that, overall, every combatant routine tends to be the same ( strike x2 + stride/skill ).
A swashbuckler, as well as a fighter, can rely respectively on different finishers or attacks, making things somehow more interesting, but as you already witnessed, if the swashbuckler fails their check, it's one action less... which makes everything fall.
by lvl 10 you'll have the stance always active ( so no more 1 action to raise your guard ). this might allow you to, eventually, use a second check, although you will be renouncing to vivacious bravado ( to me the best routine would be acrobatics + finisher + bravado ).
It's kinda a pita, I totally agree.
ps: If you were to play a human I would have suggested you to try the braggart swashbuckler + aldori duelist dedication ( because of this ), but I am not sure it would be accessibile for a kobold.
Man that was ANOTHER thing I forgot to write about, the Bon Mot thing. It was a toss up between Braggart for Intimidation or Wit for Bon Mot and I'm running into the issue(s) of things like zombies or skeletons, just neither work, but the good news is at least zombies have terrible reflex so tumble through is more reliable.
However other stuff that just doesn't speak the lanaguage, Bon Mot struggles against, and if I were level 5 I'd be taking Adopted Ancestry -> Natural Amibtion -> One for All! too (although good luck reliably getting the "hard" check on aid....) for yet another way to (try to) get panache, however since I am level 1 I don't have any options except Bon Mot or Tumble Through so anything that's mindless or immune to mental/emotional effects or whatever takes an option away automatically, demoralize with intimidating glare can cover a *few* more creatures, but anything I don't share a language with is..yet another problem.
Another thing to consider with Swashbuckler is that the value of the round isn't just based on the amount of damage done. That skill check can have value on its own - not just in gaining Panache.
Especially Gymnast. That is why I like Gymnast style so much. Even if I miss the attack for the round - which is likely considering that Grapple/Trip have the Attack trait - just succeeding at the Grapple/Trip is of value to the team.
Fencer is also good. Successful Feint will gain you Panache and will also put your accuracy on your finisher up on par with a Fighter. And successful Goading Feint can be a pretty good protective action that also gains Panache.
Braggart and Wit are both reasonable, but have some problems. Demoralize can only be used once per enemy until level 9, and even then you have to actually hit them with a finisher in order to remove the immunity. And Bon Mot is a nice debuff - for a very small selection of other characters. So maybe not the best choice for PFS play where you don't always have allies throwing out Will Save effects.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Swashbuckler is high risk -> high reward.
Medium reward might be more accurate, especially past low levels because of the way precise strike scales. In terms of quality of outcomes, the class kind of peaks at 1.
With sort of an asterisks there for when you pick up bleeding finisher at 8 since that feat is so out of bounds compared to everything else the swashbuckler gets.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
No one 1-shots enemies past level 1.
Precise Strike scales faster than sneak attack. Magus has to spend spell slots to exceed the damage output of a finisher. I don't think Precision Ranger with a 2-hand d12 weapon quite keeps up either. Giant Instinct Barbarian probably does, but they struggle to stay upright.
So what higher reward are you expecting to get?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Precise Strike scales faster than sneak attack.
Mostly, but worth noting the relative damage gap goes down over time, not up (and gets even smaller when you factor in other damage sources).
Swash always outdamages a rogue per hit on finishers, but they fall way behind once you start making multiple attacks or if the swashbuckler is making non-finisher precise strikes because the scaling on those is pretty poor (almost as good as sneak attack at level 1, less than half at 17).
I don't think Precision Ranger with a 2-hand d12 weapon quite keeps up either.
Kind of depends on the level, since Precision scales so weirdly. Also varies a bit depending on how damage invested the swashbuckler is (a swashbuckler who makes strength a secondary attribute and fishes around for a d8 finesse weapon is ahead more often than not, but pays for it in other ways and is probably not a typical build). The damage gap is never large either way though.
So what higher reward are you expecting to get?
The big thing that holds the Swash back is the intersection of base damage, action economy, and reliability. The first one is notable because while swashbucklers have the highest static damage mods of any class, some of that gets swallowed up by their inferior damage die and lower strength.
The precision greatsword example is actually pretty illustrative here, because the two of them do fairly similar damage and both classes have some awkward action economy.
But it's not like Precision Rangers are a class that comes up often when talking about pushing damage ceilings, and this comparison is under conditions designed to skew heavily in the swashbuckler's favor (16 starting strength and a d8 weapon, one attack per round, the swashbuckler always having panache).
When you start getting into more practical scenarios, Swashbucklers end up having a lot of other issues too:
- The swashbuckler's damage falls off a cliff if they don't get access to those finishers (whereas our ranger still has a greatsword).
- The swashbuckler has two points of failure (skill check > attack roll), whereas Hunt never fails.
- Finishers trigger on use, while Precision triggers on hit. A swashbuckler who misses can't attack anymore and doesn't have panache (though they get their confident damage with that finisher). A precision ranger can try again if they have actions.
- The Precision ranger doesn't have to re-hunt if the target doesn't die, Swashbucklers only get panache carry over from a feat and only then if they land the killing blow. Yeah, some panache actions are valuable in their own right, but sometimes you're tumbling through an enemy just to try to keep your combat mechanic going or, heaven forbid, picked battledancer.
- That's all the Swashbuckler gets. I mentioned that the precision ranger can try again on a miss... well they can also try again on a hit. Either way the Swashbuckler is done.
Ofc a lot of this goes out the window once you grab Bleeding but that's arguably part of the problem with the class too.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Swashbuckler is a lower tier class. You will have moments you shine and some where you feel useless. They are not a class that "just works." You have to work at making them work experiencing the frustrating ups and downs.
They get some nifty abilities as they level. But that constant skill check and all the associated limitations and bonuses will continue to apply.
I had one player try one. Some of it they liked, some of it not so much. They've never touched the class again. This player loved PF1 swashbucklers. He doesn't care for the PF2 version.
It's just another martial class that's requires too much work for too little reward. If the abilities made them shine brighter than a fighter or other martial class when they work, then it might be worth it. But they don't.
You want to be a dashing, tumbling fighter type, you're still better off playing a fighter or rogue. Swashbuckler is too much work for a middle of the pack reward. Nothing special about them or to make them particularly worth playing unless you like the roleplay fantasy.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
So the thing about swashbucklers is that they can do CONSISTANT damage. That's their thing. They are never going to out-damage the barbarian or rogue, but they are going to be able to do a lot of consistant damage. Here's what you need to do!
1) if yo ever have a free class feat, and you aren't archetyping, take acrobat dedication. It autolevels acrobatics which you use to get panache.
2) I suggest taking after you. If you are in a big fight with a single boss monster, allow him to go first and you gain panache automatically, no roll involved. If you are fighting against a bunch of mooks, then go first as they are likely lower level and you'll be able to tumble/do whatever you do to gain panache.
3) I would recommend using a shield or a buckler, or dueling stance, to get that +2 to AC. This makes it mroe likely for enemies to crit miss you.
4) One of the great things about swashbucklers is that they are one of the few classes that discourage 'shooting for the moon.' Normally if an enemy has a third attack, they'll take it because why not, they might get a crit. But with parry riposte, that suddenly becomes a really bad idea, as you'll get a free shot on them.
5) If you ever NEED to deal damage, use your confident finisher. I just fought a bunch of orcs with my swashbuckler, and they had the reaction to turn any deathblow into putting them at 1 HP. So after they used that reaction, I'd blow my finisher. Did I miss? was it a crit miss? No? Great I still did 1 damage, kill the orc. This option is even better with precice finisher (Did I miss? Still did 3d6 damage. Oh, that killed him? I'll get my panache back with finishing follow-through)
I have a guide to swashbucklers out there, so check it out if you want more advice, but like I said, they are a kinda weird tank. Good for consistant damage, even if they don't damage a lot.
The big thing that holds the Swash back is the intersection of base damage, action economy, and reliability. The first one is notable because while swashbucklers have the highest static damage mods of any class, some of that gets swallowed up by their inferior damage die and lower strength.
At maximum level they are 6d6 (+21) whereas a Rogue is 4d6 (+14) and a Giant Barbarian is +18. But the Strength difference will likely be 2 in favour of the Giant Barbarian. Plus 6 for weapon specialization. + 4 weapon dice + 3 additional damage runes
Swashbuckler gets 6d6 +5 +6 +4d8 +3d6 with a d8 weapon => 50.5Giant Barbarian gets 18 +7 +6 +4d12 +3d6 with a d12 weapon => 67.5
Thief Rogue gets 4d6 +7 +6 +4d8 +3d6 with a d8 weapon => 45.5
If I have done my maths right. The Swashbucklers damage is good. Every Barbarian is in front of them though as the bigger weapon die size really comes through. I'm sure there are more modifiers you can add on as well.
|
|
So the thing about swashbucklers is that they can do CONSISTANT damage. That's their thing. They are never going to out-damage the barbarian or rogue, but they are going to be able to do a lot of consistant damage. Here's what you need to do!
1) if yo ever have a free class feat, and you aren't archetyping, take acrobat dedication. It autolevels acrobatics which you use to get panache.
2) I suggest taking after you. If you are in a big fight with a single boss monster, allow him to go first and you gain panache automatically, no roll involved. If you are fighting against a bunch of mooks, then go first as they are likely lower level and you'll be able to tumble/do whatever you do to gain panache.
3) I would recommend using a shield or a buckler, or dueling stance, to get that +2 to AC. This makes it mroe likely for enemies to crit miss you.
4) One of the great things about swashbucklers is that they are one of the few classes that discourage 'shooting for the moon.' Normally if an enemy has a third attack, they'll take it because why not, they might get a crit. But with parry riposte, that suddenly becomes a really bad idea, as you'll get a free shot on them.
5) If you ever NEED to deal damage, use your confident finisher. I just fought a bunch of orcs with my swashbuckler, and they had the reaction to turn any deathblow into putting them at 1 HP. So after they used that reaction, I'd blow my finisher. Did I miss? was it a crit miss? No? Great I still did 1 damage, kill the orc. This option is even better with precice finisher (Did I miss? Still did 3d6 damage. Oh, that killed him? I'll get my panache back with finishing follow-through)
I have a guide to swashbucklers out there, so check it out if you want more advice, but like I said, they are a kinda weird tank. Good for consistant damage, even if they don't damage a lot.
1) I will be taking acrobat dedication at level 2. I’m still level 1 though.
2) I assume you are talking about a feat but automatic panache sounds nice. I don’t think I was taking this feat.
3) I took dueling parry at level 1
4) looking forward to level 3
5) if the confident finisher thing works as early as level 1 I’ll keep that in mind
Thank you for the tips! I think I’ll stick it out for a few more bounties and scenarios to see if it sticks with a few different tactics. Namely not using my finisher every single round but keeping it on to deal more consistent damage.
4) One of the great things about swashbucklers is that they are one of the few classes that discourage 'shooting for the moon.' Normally if an enemy has a third attack, they'll take it because why not, they might get a crit. But with parry riposte, that suddenly becomes a really bad idea, as you'll get a free shot on them.
Want to echo this because I don't think it gets brought up enough for Swashbuckler. Unless you're fighting intelligent enemies or bad GMs, Opportune Riposte translates into a surprising amount of free attacks.
I've seen 2 Swashbucklers in games I've run so far, and both have performed well.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
1) I will be taking acrobat dedication at level 2. I’m still level 1 though.
2) I assume you are talking about a feat but automatic panache sounds nice. I don’t think I was taking this feat.
3) I took dueling parry at level 1
4) looking forward to level 3
5) if the confident finisher thing works as early as level 1 I’ll keep that in mind
1) Most Swashbucklers benefit from Acrobat archetype. Gymnast actually prefers Wrestler. Same idea - autoscaling skill proficiency, but in a much more useful skill. I still don't like always using Tumble Through for gaining panache. It can put you in a dangerous position.
2) It is a feat - After You. I'm not a huge fan. It is good, but only situationally useful. Going last is also a problem.
3) Dueling parry is quite nice. Personally I like Guardian's Deflection to go along with it.
4) Yes.
5) It partially works at level 1. Confident Finisher lets you do a few points of damage at level 1 even when you miss. Half of 2d6, which is about 3 or 4 points. It does get higher as you go up in level because Precise Strike itself adds more dice. So at level 5, for example, you will instead be doing half of 3d6 (about 5 points). There is an upgrade feat (Precise Finisher at level 6) that lets you do full precise strike damage instead.
Swashbuckler is more comparable to the monk than the fighter, IMO, what with the increased mobility and focus on only using one action a turn to deal damage. But it also suffers from being a really enticing concept for new players while actually being designed for advanced ones.
Trixleby, I'd recommend checking out my class selection guide. Intermediate players like yourself who are willing to put in research but are new to PF2 are pretty much exactly the audience I was targeting when I wrote it.
|
|
Swashbuckler is more comparable to the monk than the fighter, IMO, what with the increased mobility and focus on only using one action a turn to deal damage. But it also suffers from being a really enticing concept for new players while actually being designed for advanced ones.
Trixleby, I'd recommend checking out my class selection guide. Intermediate players like yourself who are willing to put in research but are new to PF2 are pretty much exactly the audience I was targeting when I wrote it.
Where might one find this guide? Would it be in the Guide to Guides?
It is in at least one of those, but here's a link I can't be arsed to format for you.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aO5JSdq_9tjjSfb8yIWfPa2eyItNV-B0lYeOAiS 3xsM/mobilebasic
|
|
It may be a good idea to rebuild my character (as I am a Kobold) to either Gymnast simply taking the 2 free attribute bonuses to Str/Dex and/or a Battledancer. I cannot find anything that wouldn't let me use Acrobatic Performer to just use Acrobatics as a Battledancer. It just repeatedly says "when you perform" which I assume means "the Perform Action" which Acrobatic Performer allows you to use Acrobatics for instead of Performance making it ever so slightly better to succeed (every +1 counts right?).
OTOH seeing as how I am going for a one hand - free hand build (dueling parry) conveniently having a free hand to grapple, and a trip based weapon (Kukri I think) will do wonders. Since it's Agile, and the target, if tripped, would be prone ergo flat-footed I'd only be at -2 overall to my attack roll instead of -5. Not great, but not insurmountable.
The entire concept of my Character is that he is a warrior who worships Gorum and seeks to collect the skulls of worthy opponents. The Pathfinder Society provides plenty of locales, adventures, lodges and other facilitations to provide opportunities to fight powerful foes and to defeat them.
All of the Swashbuckler Styles give some benefit for succeeding at their special skill used for gaining Panache - except Battledancer. There is no value to the Fascinated condition in combat.
Grabbed and Prone - excellent (for both you and your allies).
Feint for Flat-footed - nice.
Frightened - fantastic.
Whatever that condition is called from Bon-Mot - not bad.
...
Fascinated - goes away immediately if you or any of your allies use a hostile action against that target or any of their allies.
|
|
All of the Swashbuckler Styles give some benefit for succeeding at their special skill used for gaining Panache - except Battledancer. There is no value to the Fascinated condition in combat.
Grabbed and Prone - excellent (for both you and your allies).
Feint for Flat-footed - nice.
Frightened - fantastic.
Whatever that condition is called from Bon-Mot - not bad....
Fascinated - goes away immediately if you or any of your allies use a hostile action against that target or any of their allies.
For all intents and purposes the Bon Mot one is stupefied 2 or 3 but limited in that it only effects will saves purely.
Although this does help inform my decision that a gymnast may fit better for my specific character, both in concept (powerful warrior) and in execution. The only problem is there's no real way to get panache from a distance. The first turn is always awkward and almost always means I'm not able to close distance, get panache, attack and dueling parry all at once though, unless the enemy is within 25 feet and I succeed at a tumble through.
OTOH seeing as how I am going for a one hand - free hand build (dueling parry) conveniently having a free hand to grapple, and a trip based weapon (Kukri I think) will do wonders. Since it's Agile, and the target, if tripped, would be prone ergo flat-footed I'd only be at -2 overall to my attack roll instead of -5. Not great, but not insurmountable.
Also OTOH, Gymnast has a very tough choice at level 6 between Agile Maneuvers and Combination Finisher.
Personally I would go with Combination Finisher first and get Agile Maneuvers later. That means that Grapple/Trip, Finisher (with agile weapon) - the finisher is made at -3 against an opponent with -2 AC.
Agile Maneuvers just means that you can use both Grapple and Trip in the same round better. Finisher, then Grapple/Trip doesn't work because Grapple and Trip have the Attack trait and can't be used after a Finisher.
The first turn is always awkward and almost always means I'm not able to close distance, get panache, attack and dueling parry all at once though, unless the enemy is within 25 feet and I succeed at a tumble through.
I would agree with that. My Gymnast character is in the same spot. I often don't end up making Finisher attacks every round. First round is often just Stride, Grapple/Trip, Strike/Parry. Save the finisher for second round if needed.
With the higher STR, you are doing pretty decent damage with just regular attacks. Not as much as characters built specifically for maximum damage, but pretty decent.
And just succeeding at the skill checks for Grapple and Trip make you feel like you are contributing to combat fairly well even if you aren't doing damage.
|
|
My initial reaction was to balk at Gymnast, because I thought that Kobolds get a strength penalty, however that is actually from D&D 5e. Since Charisma isn't even that important to a Gymnast (although it can be) I can either take the Con hit, and start with something like 16 Strength, 18 Dex, 10 Con, 10 Int, 10-12 Wis and 12-14 Cha using my starter boosts in Str, Dex, Wis or Cha and Con to bring it up to 10 from -8...
or I can start with something like the 2 2+ to any ability and go 16 Str, 18 Dex, 12 Con, 10-12 wis or 10-12 cha. I'm not sure how much 1 entire HP matter, starting at 16 or 17 HP. Otherwise the stats are a bit identical with one making me somewhat able to do intimidation eventually (scary powerful warrior thing) or having somewhat better initiative, perception and will saves and/or a bit more HP (1).
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
There is a hidden benefit to the battledancer. First of all, it doesn't have a range limit, it doesn't have a language limit, and it works on mindless things. So it gets you panache on the widest variety of stuff (as opposed to say, intimidate, bon mot, which requires something having a mind.) Plus, if you pick up leading dance, battle dancer becomes SUPER good. (You put yourself in a corner where you can't be flanked? No, no you come out here where we can flank you good and proper.)
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There is a hidden benefit to the battledancer. First of all, it doesn't have a range limit, it doesn't have a language limit, and it works on mindless things. So it gets you panache on the widest variety of stuff (as opposed to say, intimidate, bon mot, which requires something having a mind.) Plus, if you pick up leading dance, battle dancer becomes SUPER good. (You put yourself in a corner where you can't be flanked? No, no you come out here where we can flank you good and proper.)
That and the true benefit of making the Swashbuckler SAD via Acrobatic Performance meaning one could technically dump Cha and go full Dex and some other stat instead (wisdom for initiative, perception and will saves maybe?)
So for me it’s looking like a tie between remaking as a Battledancer or Gymnast. I’m liking Gymnast for the trip into an attack at only technically -1 or 2 MAP due to using an Agile/Finesse D6 weapon which automatically puts map for second attack at -4 then another -2 from flat footed. Not to mention any other bonuses. Then at 6 of course there’s the combination finisher which really basically erases your map so long as you tripped (or grappled etc) your opponent. I think with a Kukri it could be pretty nice, although I could probably stick with a Shortsword since the trip trait wouldn’t do much considering my build is staying free handed.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's really telling about the state of the Swashbuckler when "you can spend an action doing nothing" is called a benefit.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's really telling about the state of the Swashbuckler when "you can spend an action doing nothing" is called a benefit.What do you mean?
Every type of Swashbuckler gets another effect on their enemy when they gain panache.
Battle Dancer get some forced enemy movement and facinated for a split second - often that is nothing,
Wit has lower will and perception DC - which might be nothing unless your party has a plan for it,
Gynmast has made their enemy flatfooted to everyone,
Braggart has lowered their offence and defence,
Fencer has made their enemy flatfooted or given them an attack penalty.
It is pretty clear what the stronger effects are.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
While it's true, I'd rather pick my style thinking of the swashbuckler feats and the lvl 9 perk, rather that what can offer me the secondary skill that provides panache.
Level 9 is a long way away in PFS.
But you will be looking to gain Panache every round of combat.
And any Swashbuckler style can pick up Leading Dance. Most just don't get Panache for using it.
|
|
I feel like consistently putting a dude on the ground is overall the most useful of all of these options. Because it's like a mini-slowed. They would feel probably very encouraged/compelled to burn an action standing up every single turn. otherwise they are at -2 AC for everyone even ranged people (yay!) and at -2 to attack anyone (also yay!). Basically flat-footed and mini-enfeebled 2.
Seems very powerful. Flat footed is pretty easy to get with flanking anyway, but flat-footed and burning an action and being down on attack seems the most powerful effect. Also Gymnast (i hate calling it that because I always picture the people with ribbons who do flips and stuff from the Olympics and it breaks my brain) does the most damage because strength so it would be +3 from str +2 from panache for a total of 1d6+5 damage at first level and only getting stronger as we level. Seems really good.
I can always spare some points for Charisma to be scary too. Aztec inspired aesthetically headhunter warrior of Gorum is my character concept anyway. Not all Swashbucklers need look like Errol Flynn or the Three Musketeers.
If it's only a one handed weapon user you want, is there any reason you're stuck on wanting to play a swashbuckler instead of a weapon monk or a thaumaturge if you don't want to play fighter or rogue?
Sure, it might be PFS, but swashbuckler basically has no redeeming features until bleeding finisher (level 8 which may as well be never in PFS) or derring-do (10th, even further away) which is still just a consolation prize rather than something that elevates the class
|
For the fun of it all.
Relax and just enjoy the game. The d20 has more influence over the overall outcome of a battle than the difference between Swashbuckler and weapon Monk.
And people are complaining about Thaumaturge in a different thread, so its not like you can win by choosing a different class anyway.
|
|
If it's only a one handed weapon user you want, is there any reason you're stuck on wanting to play a swashbuckler instead of a weapon monk or a thaumaturge if you don't want to play fighter or rogue?
Sure, it might be PFS, but swashbuckler basically has no redeeming features until bleeding finisher (level 8 which may as well be never in PFS) or derring-do (10th, even further away) which is still just a consolation prize rather than something that elevates the class
I'm not stuck on Swashbuckler. I'm considering rebuild barbarian too. The main problem with Thaumaturge is the word has no meaning to me except as the class you play before Black Mage in FFXIV. I have no concept for it or what it is, and most of the people I've played with that use a Thaumaturge have given me a bad impression of the class. It seems to attract turbo munchkins.
Monk is fine, I have no problems with weapon monk, but I liked Swashbuckler because it seemed "built around" using a one handed weapon (seems to have a lot of feat support for it). I could also go Fighter, but I think one of the appeals of Barbarian or Swashbuckler is slightly variable action economy (Not doing *exactly* the same thing every single turn..)
The main problem with Thaumaturge is the word has no meaning to me except as the class you play before Black Mage in FFXIV. I have no concept for it or what it is,
Well, ultimately the class is just a framework for characters of your own making.
Thaumaturge is a character that uses gadgets or symbolic items to do battle with. Somewhat like an Inventor, but with a more mystical bent to it instead of a scientific or mechanical one.
Thaumaturge is also a character that specializes in taking down obscure creepy-crawlies - the stranger the better.
So think Ghostbusters (a party of Inventor and Thaumaturge characters), or Van Helsing.
|
|
If PFS is kinda slow as progression, indeed ( way better ).I get about 1 level a month. 4 xp per scenario, 1 per bounty, takes 12 xp to get each level (so 12 xp to get to level 12, then 12 xp to get to level 3, etc.) I play once a week, so every 3 weeks I get a level.Not slow at all then!
Good to know.
Yeah I guess if you could play every day, all day you could level up really fast. If you played 1 scenario a day every single day you'd get 2 levels in a week.
|
|
2 things:
I don't think Acrobatic perfomance lets you battledance to gain panache. The Battledancer class ability SPECIFICALLY says you gain Panache when you use PERFORMANCE check to perform and exceed their will DC
For everyone who says it is useless . . . you are familiar with the idea of trade-offs right? You trade off a good debuff for the ability to gain panache on . . . . anyone? It's . . . it's just what it is, a trade off.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't think Acrobatic perfomance lets you battledance to gain panache. The Battledancer class ability SPECIFICALLY says you gain Panache when you use PERFORMANCE check to perform and exceed their will DC
And Acrobatic Performer SPECIFICALLY says that you can use ACROBATICS when using the PERFORM action.
So which is the specific rule that overrides the general rule?
You gain panache by successfully performing the skill check associated with specific actions that have a bit of flair, including Tumble Through and additional actions determined by your swashbuckler's style.
Since Swashbuckler rules state that actions - not skills - are what gains panache, I think that Acrobatic Performer does work for the skill replacement.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So which is the specific rule that overrides the general rule?
That part is clear. The Panache rule that is most specific is the Panache rule in the Style. The statement on Panache you quote is open and written in general language. It says it is overwritten in each style.
It is perfectly valid to say actions in the general rule, then have the specific rule put limitations on those actions.
So no I am with VampByDay here: I don't think that Acrobatic Perfomance allows you to gain panache with a Dex check.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Traditional wisdom on the subject is that "Performance check to Perform" rather than simply "performance check" is meant to specifically head off skill replacement options.
For everyone who says it is useless . . . you are familiar with the idea of trade-offs right? You trade off a good debuff for the ability to gain panache on . . . . anyone? It's . . . it's just what it is, a trade off.
Well yeah, it's also not a very good tradeoff, especially when the starting point is also kind of bad.
So which is the specific rule that overrides the general rule?That part is clear. The Panache rule that is most specific is the Panache rule in the Style.
Why? How are you determining which is more general or more specific?
Any character can get Acrobatics training and take the Acrobatic Performance feat.
Any Battledancer can use Performance to gain Panache.
Those are both general.
But a character that is both a Battledancer and has the Acrobatic Performance feat is a specific character. But I don't see anything that is giving a priority order on degree of specificity.
The statement on Panache you quote is open and written in general language. It says it is overwritten in each style.
But it really isn't overwritten in each style.
There is the mention of Performance skill in Battledancer, I'll note and acknowledge that.
None of the other styles have any mention of skill check to use. So do you also somehow argue that a Gymnast can't use Telekinetic Maneuver to gain panache using a spell attack roll instead of an Athletics check? There is certainly nothing in either the Swashbuckler general rules or the Gymnast rules that prevents it from working.
It is perfectly valid to say actions in the general rule, then have the specific rule put limitations on those actions.
Is this just supposed to be a specific nerf to Battledancer - because they really need additional nerfs. They are too OP already compared to the other Styles.[/sarcasm]
The Swashbuckler Styles and Panache rules say that you gain Panache for using actions - not particular skills. Battledancer is the only one that mentions a particular skill - and that seems to be more a matter of sentence structure than an attempt to restrict the style to only use the one skill no matter of skill feats taken.