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There are quite a few versatile heritage/ancestry combinations that don't seem to make all that much sense.
By RAW they all work.
As a GM in a home game I'd likely require a very good rationale from the player in order to justify some of them. Otherwise MY willing suspension of disbelief and immersion is harmed.
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I don't find any of the constructed ancestry / versatile heritage combinations any harder to believe than any of those same constructed ancestries with a Sorcerer bloodline.
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I don't find any of the constructed ancestry / versatile heritage combinations any harder to believe than any of those same constructed ancestries with a Sorcerer bloodline.
Agreed. And I'd want the player to justify the sorcerer as well :-).
Note, I'm NOT going to be hugely critical of these attempts and shoot everything down. But I really want an answer that allows ME to suspend my disbelief. And hopefully the answer isn't (even if it really is :-)) "Well, I really wanted this combination of abilities and a <insert something ridiculous> was the best way to get it".
I've got no issue with Power Gaming your ancestry/class/background combination. But I then pretty much insist that YOU come up with a SANE backstory so that it all makes sense. And then play up the back story when the opportunity arises :-)
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For the planar heritages (aasimar, aphorite, ganzi, ifrit, oread, suli, sylph, tiefling, undine), you can easily fall back on the android's (or poppet's) physical body being infused (either deliberately or by accident) with planar essence/energies. Similar as to how automatons could be "corrupted" by using planar energy in their automaton core.
An android with the duskwalker heritage would be unusual, but you could make it work as part of the bargain/concession to allow duskwalkers as the rebirth of a specific android soul. An automaton or poppet duskwalker might be the result of a similar rebirth.
An android with the reflection heritage would probably be just as rare as from another ancestry.
An android with the beastkin, changeling, or dhampir heritage would probably be the result of a deliberate experiment.
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A lot of potential characters aren't limited by rules so much as "the person who wants to play them has to come up with an explanation for how/why this happened". If you can't think of a reason that your Leshy is a Dhampir or your Skeleton is an Aasimar or your Poppet is a Ganzi then you just don't play that character.
If you do come up with a justification for things happening this way, then you don't actually need a rule.
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I think it would be better from a character coherency standpoint if the player does have some sort of explanation for the combination. But I don't think I would reject a combination just because the player couldn't come up with something reasonable.
The fallback of "Well, the character doesn't really know how they came to be. At the time they were in fact just born/created yesterday after all. Do you remember your second day of life?"
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Unrelated: I think the hardest one to come up with explanations for is Automaton.
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Seconding Dragonchess. The planar scions (and by extention many relevant sorcerers) explicitly are not exclusively, "You have genetics of an otherworldly creature" but can also be created through a creature simply being exposed to the right (or wrong) energies at a critical early point in their development. As an example, Ustalav is said to have a higher than average population of Undead Sorcerers not just because there's a lot of undead breeding going around, but that the residual necromantic energies from the Shining Crusade sometimes seep into a child's essence.
There are only a few combinations I don't think that answer would suffice for, and for most it's because the versatile heritage specifically applies to organics--such as changelings being based on their genetic father's ancestry.
Can an android take a versatile heritage like Tiefling or Aasimar?
Both are born, whereas an android is made, not born.
Why can't a life be artificially augmented or sustained?
Obviously anything that is artificial has a construction event, and anything biological has a birth or a hatching. Something that is both probably had both.
There can be constructed, biological, magical or divine elements to this.
Yes it is unlikely a Tielfling Poppet is a naturally occuring or sustaining species. But it doesn't mean they can't exist in this world.
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Magical accident/fluctuation/exposure (possibly from unknown source for a PC or even a player) + some random fluff. Done. Would that be enough or do you really gate classes behind arbitrarily 'good' descriptions from players?I don't find any of the constructed ancestry / versatile heritage combinations any harder to believe than any of those same constructed ancestries with a Sorcerer bloodline.Agreed. And I'd want the player to justify the sorcerer as well :-)
I have two sorcerers in my current party. Neither came by their bloodline genetically.
Back in a PF1 Serpent's Skull campaign, my wife created a halfling aberrant sorceress named Wealday Addams. The Nidalese slaveowner Doctor Addams treated his halfling slaves as lab subjects, did not bother naming them properly, and experiemented on them with wierd mutagens. Giving eldritch essences to Wealday gave her aberrant bloodline powers. She used them to escape and stow away on a ship.
In my PF2-converted Ironfang Invasion campaign, my wife created Wealday's cousin Toilday. Dr. Addams experimented on him by injecting red dragon blood, and nothing happened. Toilday escaped to Nirmathas with the help of the Bellflower Network and changed his name to Sam. The red dragon blood had a belated effect years later, when Sam took Sorcerer Multiclass Dedication at 2nd level.
The other sorcerer in my Ironfang Invasion campaign is a leshy fey-bloodline sorcerer Gold-Flame Honeysuckle Vine. Her backstory is that a druid in the fey-filled Fangwood Forest awoke a local honeysuckle vine as a vine leshy to be his familiar as he traveled around local small villages as a healer. After bandits killed him, the leshy continued on as an intelligent creature and developed primal spellcasting like her former master (the leshy is sexless, but prefers feminine pronouns). The PF2 bestiary includes fey plants such as blodeuwedds, dryads, and twigjacks.
As for androids, the lore from the Iron Gods adventure path is that when androids die, the nanobots in their circulatory systems continue working to repair them after their soul departed. This sometimes revives the android as a different person with a new soul. This is called renewal.
I created a backstory for the android Casandalee in Iron Gods that often had her renewed incarnation influenced by magic around her death. For example, she had been a druid named Ulrikke in Andorran taking a sea voyage in her elder years, died of old age, was buried at sea, and washed up on the shores of Jalmeray alive again. The primal magics in Ulrikke's body had attracted sea spirits, so the new incarnation was a waves oracle with the haunted curse. She became a pirate named Bonnie Ann, retired with her loot to Alkenstar, and (this last piece is official Iron Gods lore) awoke after her death in a temple of Brigh in Alkenstar as an ancestors oracle with the shattered psyche curse that let her remember her past lives.
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I'd like to use this thread as an excuse to do some fun theory crafting!
What is the story of a reflection android or automaton?
I can easily see that as a case of the character being a part of a small series of similarly built characters. Simpler for automaton, but still works for android, if not a direct reflection. I could see it being like an Android 17/18 situation from DBZ.
What is the story of a dhampir android or automaton?
Speaking of DBZ! That sounds like Android 19/20 to me.
What is the story of an ifrit android or automaton?
Other than what's already been mentioned about their souls being touched by fire, I like the idea of something kinda like Volcamon or PileVolcamon from Digimon. Something where fire or explosiveness is actually built it as part of their design (read: Not character design, but in-world design).
Let's hear some more!
If Androids are made, shouldn't they be... anything their creators wish them to be?
If an Android Aasimar comes to life, then "someone" built a mechanical angel-like humanoid to begin with, no ;) ? That, or an angel blessed that android, which in term altered its body and mind.
If anything, mechanical or constructed ancestries with versatile heritages had those traits "replicated" artificially. It's not organic, but it's the same thing.
Both aasimar and tiefling heriatages are "too easy to use" as examples IMO. You can have an Android Beastkin, whose literal skin is made of millions of nano-sized interlocking plates, which all move and reconfigurate the body when it changes shapes...
...and cue Beast Wars' TV intro XD
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If Androids are made, shouldn't they be... anything their creators wish them to be?
An android's "creator" is a machine that crashed to Golarion thousands of years ago (See Rain of Stars) and due to a glitch keeps pumping out androids even though the ship is completely ruined.
If Androids are made, shouldn't they be... anything their creators wish them to be?An android's "creator" is a machine that crashed to Golarion thousands of years ago (See Rain of Stars) and due to a glitch keeps pumping out androids even though the ship is completely ruined.
So... blessing (celestials) or possession (fiends) then...
I... can't think of any other way you can have an aasimar android without external meddling. Maybe it's a wandering/lost soul that merged with the android right as it came out of that machine.
BTW, that "glitch" may cause the machine to excessive production, but... how else was that machine damaged or glitched. For all we know, that machine is cycling through some "ancestry database" and spit out android variants. That wouldn't explain why androids are "always human", not having variants based on dwarves, orcs and kobolds.
If Androids are made, shouldn't they be... anything their creators wish them to be?An android's "creator" is a machine that crashed to Golarion thousands of years ago (See Rain of Stars) and due to a glitch keeps pumping out androids even though the ship is completely ruined.So... blessing (celestials) or possession (fiends) then...
Automaton aren't even being created any more. They were all built millenia ago for the war effort between the Jistka Imperium and the at-the-time recently established nation of Osirion.
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I don't know if explaining the circumstances of your construction/birth thousands of years ago is necessarily a more limited creative space than if those circumstances were 20 years ago.
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For androids: The foundry you were born from landed in an area of abyssal corruption, and because of that you inherited some of the traits of a fiend. Or the soul that was born in you just happened to be tainted somehow. You don't need a logical explanation for your heritage, and can just make up anything you want. It can even be "I don't know, I just am".
Androids are also canonically able to become undead, so even Dhampir and Duskwalker are possible for them.
I don't know if explaining the circumstances of your construction/birth thousands of years ago is necessarily a more limited creative space than if those circumstances were 20 years ago.
Perhaps not.
It is also an interesting creative problem to decide exactly why the Automaton character doesn't start the game at level 20. What sort of Metroid-sequel-esque event happened?
Androids are also canonically able to become undead, so even Dhampir and Duskwalker are possible for them.
While you are correct that there's nothing hard-limiting Duskwalker Androids, duskwalkers are about as far opposite of undead as you can get in the game right now.
I don't know if explaining the circumstances of your construction/birth thousands of years ago is necessarily a more limited creative space than if those circumstances were 20 years ago.Perhaps not.
It is also an interesting creative problem to decide exactly why the Automaton character doesn't start the game at level 20. What sort of Metroid-sequel-esque event happened?
Sure there's the easy answer of you were not power save mode buried in the sad for the last 7,999 years... but why that when you can be a 20th level farmer who has survived 8000 years just quietly tilling away on the same patch of land come kingdom or bandit before the call to adventure finally arrived and all they really want is to get back to feed their chickens, but first this world-ending lich tyrant has to be dealt with, like a coyote in the henhouse.
Not much of a spoiler, it's written right there in their entry :P
Androids first arrived on Golarion during the Rain of Stars, when an interstellar vessel from the far-off planet of Androffa crash-landed, scattering debris across Numeria. While some android survivors of this crash still walk Golarion today, most were created from the technological pods, known as foundries, that operate sporadically amid the starship's wreckage. Androids birthed from these mechanical wombs possess mature bodies and newborn souls, both organic and synthetic; they emerge knowing only their creators' language and the motor skills necessary for survival. They have no understanding of their surroundings, origin, or purpose. Most learn how to behave through keen observation while wandering Numeria.
Emphasis mine for the 2nd point
In a world where magic, deities, monsters, outsiders, planes and actual tangible souls exist, that "newborn soul" can be human or from a versatile heritage. I think I've read somewhere (P1E or Starfinder) that androids have no idea where their own souls come from, so a non-human soul in an android body is highly plausible.
Outsider heritages can match this possibility given how these can wander, but not dhampir, changeling and beastkin. Well, yes and no:
- Dhampir androids can be created if there's negative energy and/or lingering necromantic magic.
- Beastkin androids can be link to primal magic... although my idea of a new custom android body built to wild shape is better :P
- Changeling androids... should not technically exist. Androids cannot reproduce, let alone with a hag XD
Reflections are... reflections, so :P
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Androids are also canonically able to become undead, so even Dhampir and Duskwalker are possible for them.While you are correct that there's nothing hard-limiting Duskwalker Androids, duskwalkers are about as far opposite of undead as you can get in the game right now.
Yes, but if a thing can't be undead they can't really be a duskwalker now can they? I was just mentioning the antithesis of the thing along side the thing.
Sure there's the easy answer of you were not power save mode buried in the sad for the last 7,999 years... but why that when you can be a 20th level farmer who has survived 8000 years just quietly tilling away on the same patch of land come kingdom or bandit before the call to adventure finally arrived and all they really want is to get back to feed their chickens, but first this world-ending lich tyrant has to be dealt with, like a coyote in the henhouse.
For my character I went with an answer that combined both the reset and the staving off of insanity. Occasionally over the years as the weight of the years bears down on him too much he goes into a hibernation state for 80 - 100 years. When he wakes back up his memories of former life are more remote and easier to bear, but his skills and physical abilities have also been atrophied.
Yes, but if a thing can't be undead they can't really be a duskwalker now can they? I was just mentioning the antithesis of the thing along side the thing.Androids are also canonically able to become undead, so even Dhampir and Duskwalker are possible for them.While you are correct that there's nothing hard-limiting Duskwalker Androids, duskwalkers are about as far opposite of undead as you can get in the game right now.
Like for aasimars and tieflings, you should consider these "blessed/possessed" by psychopomps.
Oh boy, if you try figuring out how an android can be a duskwalker despite not knowing what death is, you're sinking down a long rabbit's hole :P
Yes, but if a thing can't be undead they can't really be a duskwalker now can they? I was just mentioning the antithesis of the thing along side the thing.Androids are also canonically able to become undead, so even Dhampir and Duskwalker are possible for them.While you are correct that there's nothing hard-limiting Duskwalker Androids, duskwalkers are about as far opposite of undead as you can get in the game right now.
Curious, I don't actually know the element if lire which states a duskwalker can only arise from a creature which could have been undead. I only dug into them recently, but to my knowledge they are created out of reincarnated souls who performed a service to the Boneyard and have been given a second chance. If a fresh humanoid can be created to house their soul I don't know why not a new poppet body, but then perhaps I've missed something?
I am also curious why you think that Androids are not capable of dying or do not know what death is.
Sure there's the easy answer of you were not power save mode buried in the sad for the last 7,999 years... but why that when you can be a 20th level farmer who has survived 8000 years just quietly tilling away on the same patch of land come kingdom or bandit before the call to adventure finally arrived and all they really want is to get back to feed their chickens, but first this world-ending lich tyrant has to be dealt with, like a coyote in the henhouse.I don't know if explaining the circumstances of your construction/birth thousands of years ago is necessarily a more limited creative space than if those circumstances were 20 years ago.Perhaps not.
It is also an interesting creative problem to decide exactly why the Automaton character doesn't start the game at level 20. What sort of Metroid-sequel-esque event happened?
Yeah, the writeup of the Automaton in Guns & Gears lampshades this:
The exceptional and forward-thinking construction of automatons means that a fair number remain today, millennia later, scattered to the winds. However, the passage of time has revealed one of automatons’ greatest weaknesses: their mortal psyches. Only the strongest willed have managed to retain their memories, sense of self, and lucidity after all this time.
So hypothetically you were trapped in a tomb for a thousand years with nothing but a rubber ball to keep you company and you experienced ego death just bouncing it for thousands of years. When you were unearthed, you can start building a sense of identity but it might not have much if anything to do with the old one.
Another possible origin for an android with an extraplanar heritage is to imagine an NPC android influenced by Golarion society who wants a child of their own, not adopted nor manufactured, but from their own genetic code. They make a deal with an extraplanar entity, who forms an android child out of biological material from their home plane. If the entity was a fiend, that gives a tiefling android. If the entity was an angel, that gives an aasimir android. As a child the PC android would have only android ciruitry and human-like features, but as an adult accidental exposure to extraplanar magics could let nonhuman features develop.
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Curious, I don't actually know the element if lire which states a duskwalker can only arise from a creature which could have been undead. I only dug into them recently, but to my knowledge they are created out of reincarnated souls who performed a service to the Boneyard and have been given a second chance. If a fresh humanoid can be created to house their soul I don't know why not a new poppet body, but then perhaps I've missed something?Yes, but if a thing can't be undead they can't really be a duskwalker now can they? I was just mentioning the antithesis of the thing along side the thing.Androids are also canonically able to become undead, so even Dhampir and Duskwalker are possible for them.While you are correct that there's nothing hard-limiting Duskwalker Androids, duskwalkers are about as far opposite of undead as you can get in the game right now.
As far as I can tell, nothing is preventing any of the existing ancestries from rising as an undead. Undeath is either just a dead body animated with negative energy, which may or may not house a corruption of the body's original soul, or the soul of a dead creature bound to the material plane for one reason or another. The only requirements are that you have a body and/or a soul.
The same goes for Duskwalkers. They are either a resurrected body/soul combo, or a new body was obtained to house their souls. They function very similarly, with the key difference being Duskwalkers are not animated by negative energy, and their soul is completely intact.
I guess the only upside is that you can animate dead outsiders as undead, as undead fiends are a rare but real threat, and fiends are made of souls rather than house them.