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Actually, I consider having a backup plan being very appropriate for an investigator. They are supposed to think multiple steps ahead.
So let’s focus on where else they are good at.
Int class with 6 plus Int modifier trained skills. Two of those skills are defined between class and methodology. Still, they can easily be trained in all the monster identification skills.
Feat support for a free RK check against an opponent via Known Weaknesses. I had underestimated how useful that was on my own investigator and will need to pick it up later.
Multiple abilities that help other players. The RK from Known Weakness has a small chance of giving a bonus. Shared Strategem can make an opponent flat footed for an ally. Even without a rogue, that improves the chance of a hit or critical. Clue Them All In is a nice skill boost.
I don’t think they will ever be the highest DPR in combat. They are reasonable in combat, capable of being a switch hitter, and have plenty of ways to help the team with various skill checks and combat.
My Investigator lietrally has every option you just mentioned. When the DaS goes well this class functions well. I don't deal as much damage as the Barbarian, but I contribute well to the party, help to set up crits, I give people knowledge that's helpful, it's all good.
The problem is when the DaS goes badly. Not only does my damage for the round plummet to basically zero , but my in-class support optionss like Shared Strategy are also tied to that roll. I have Bon Mot and Intimidating Glare so that I can use those options, but there are plenty of enemies immune to those.
Essentially what this means is that in a single-enemy encounter where I roll badly on my DaS I've basically just confirmed to myself that my class won't be giving me any abilities this round. I spent an action so that I'd know in advance I can skip my turn. Having off-class options is a great idea. Having to rely on those options on ~40% of your turns isn't.
Some of this is very scenario-specific , but a lot of this is generic enough that I see this more often than not.
People in this thread have given 2 solutions that I think are great, 1 simple solution and one a bit more complex.
1. "The Investigator can use this roll ...". That one word would fix the bulk of the problems, and would allow people to continue their turn without being locked out of normal combat options. Not only would this fix the mechanical problems people have with the class right now, but it also fits the fiction of what Devise a Strategum actually does. If your super-smart Investigator is clever enough to see in advance that their plan will fail, why are they now locked out of trying a different plan using the same enemy? Sure the left-jab is about to be blocked, but the right hook could still be effective ...
2. Having some in-class options that trigger on a failed DaS roll, or that work with non-DaS actions. A few new feats might be enough. I would be perfectly happy with non-damage options, just something you can do besides spend 2 more actions attacking, with the knowledge that the first attack will definitely miss and the second attack is made at a penalty.
The change I proposed wasn't thinking too much about flavor (but I agree with Karmagator, re-roll can represented by your char creating a stratagem but giving it up because it make the conclusion that won't is good enough and will try other thing or will just try to Strike anyway and see if hits. Being forced to switch the target because you are giving up a bad stratagem IMO is worse than this in flavor is like you are think "this stratagem is bad, forget it I will Strike someone else then when the situation changes I will try again") I just try to address the complain of "is better to do a rogue because if Strike a flat-footed opponent it will use the precision damage for every Strike and if not I can move to flank (if possible) or I will just try can use an action to Feint and If failures I just try again or try to Strike the target anyway.
At last if allows to Strike without use the DaS against same target it will have more advantage than just be able to be done at range.
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Yeah, the thing the investigator needs more than anything else is interesting and effective things to do when your DaS fails, especially early on.
Yep and it is THE main build tip in my sample builds for this class. I mean seriously it is step 1. If you aren't doing this then you are not doing the class justice.
Some options
1) Give your actions to your mount or animal companion to attack
2) Same with the Marshal To Battle power
3) Get a casting dedication and an offensive cantrip.
4) Strike at another target - much easier if you have reach or range.
5) If you have Strength then don't take Athletic Strategist so you can Trip/Grapple/Shove/Disarm with a new die roll
There are other things like but I normally think it is more important to attack somehow.
6) Other skill actions eg Demoralise
7) Utility actions
But I do agree with the conclusion that there is very little in class for the Investigator. I mean I like Known Weaknesses, Detective's Readiness, Suspect of Opportunity, and not much else. There should be a good DAS option in class.
The other problem is the Rogue get to be 95% reliable with Sneak Attack after a while. The Investigator is pretty much stuck around 50% with DAS and Strategic Strike. Which is the same really as the Rogue will still miss half the time. But then the Rogue gets 2 more actions and reactions and can use its Sneak Attack more times. The Investigators DAS feature doesn't scale. It really needs a few more feats at level 8 and up to allow this ability to scale. Maybe some action efficiency or allowing them to use the same number on a second strike.
The problem is when the DaS goes badly. Not only does my damage for the round plummet to basically zero , but my in-class support optionss like Shared Strategy are also tied to that roll. I have Bon Mot and Intimidating Glare so that I can use those options, but there are plenty of enemies immune to those.
This is not different from rogues with Feint. If you fail to feint you and your party don't receive the benefit from flat-foot that target. The diference is that DaS don't allow you to try again but also can be made by any distance from target.
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This is not different from rogues with Feint. If you fail to feint you and your party don't receive the benefit from flat-foot that target. The diference is that DaS don't allow you to try again but also can be made by any distance from target.
Except a Rogue who fails to feint a target can still attack that target. They won't get their sneak attack or debuff the enemy, but they can still do it. The Investigator can't - or rather they can but they know they'll miss.
Imagine if when a Rogue missed the feint they were not allowed to even attempt to attack the target. That's how the Investigator currently works. It's baffling on both a mechanical and a thematic level.
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I am fairly experienced with the class and agree that devise a stratagem is a deeply flawed power. I feel like buffing it as YuriP suggests would improve it both from a flavour and a mechanical standpoint, solving what i feel like is the biggest problem of the class.
Nice thinking sir.
Devs, please read this tread and do your magic, the investigator would benefit immensly from such an errata.
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Another thing I haven't seen mentioned here is how absurdly better Investigator is with ranged weapons compared to melee. Their action economy is extremely tight, their core feature extensively benefits from the possibility of re-targeting, and their MADness doesn't really alow you to invest in Strength properly, meaning melee and ranged builds do basically the same damage, except ranged is much better at everything else (including using some of those super strong Magical Ammunition options from TV). Melee Investigator is screwed from so many sides at once that I'd almost call it one of the few trap options in the game.
And the core fantasy of the class seems to be "discombobulate". Rapiers and sword canes are probably their two classic weapons, flavor-wise. So bows being such a better option feels pretty bad.
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Another thing I haven't seen mentioned here is how absurdly better Investigator is with ranged weapons compared to melee. Their action economy is extremely tight, their core feature extensively benefits from the possibility of re-targeting, and their MADness doesn't really alow you to invest in Strength properly, meaning melee and ranged builds do basically the same damage, except ranged is much better at everything else (including using some of those super strong Magical Ammunition options from TV). Melee Investigator is screwed from so many sides at once that I'd almost call it one of the few trap options in the game.
And the core fantasy of the class seems to be "discombobulate". Rapiers and sword canes are probably their two classic weapons, flavor-wise. So bows being such a better option feels pretty bad.
Agreed but i also usually opt to use the power of GUN so my action economy goes out of the window anyway. A little price for great style
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The problem is when the DaS goes badly. Not only does my damage for the round plummet to basically zero , but my in-class support optionss like Shared Strategy are also tied to that roll. I have Bon Mot and Intimidating Glare so that I can use those options, but there are plenty of enemies immune to those.This is not different from rogues with Feint. If you fail to feint you and your party don't receive the benefit from flat-foot that target. The diference is that DaS don't allow you to try again but also can be made by any distance from target.
Somewhat true but Feint is just one of several ways to gain flat footed for Rogue. From level 6 or so most Rogues have reliable options.
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And the core fantasy of the class seems to be "discombobulate". Rapiers and sword canes are probably their two classic weapons, flavor-wise. So bows being such a better option feels pretty bad.
Agreed, the flavour could be aligned better. Maybe they need a couple of melee specific options.
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If it is a 3, maybe you throw a cantrip (spell attacks are fine btw, Devise only cares about Strikes) or skill actions.
Thanks for this. I had not read Devise a Stratagem closely enough and thought it applied to any Attack action. You are correct, it does say Strike and the Cast a Spell activity usually does not include a Strike.
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What's funny is that Investigators can accidentally remove Plan B options by taking Athletic Strategist; an Investigator with that feat is now stuck with their bad DaS roll on strikes and grapples. It's to the point where I think I would skip it on a dedicated Athletics build.
On an Investigator built to use Athletics regularly - high STR and max proficiency, I would probably agree. Better to just roll it and hope for the best just like everyone else.
For an Investigator that isn't built for Athletics it becomes an interesting option. If you roll low on Devise, you probably weren't going to use a grapple or trip anyway. But if you roll high on Devise, it may be better to apply the status penalties than deal damage.
A nat-20 on Devise for an Investigator with Athletic Strategist is pretty much the only time that the Disarm action actually becomes good.
I think it is less likely to see an Errata on the class than additional content, especially if the additional content can address the same underlying issue as an errata: give the class something to do specifically when attacking is not a great option.
Additionally, I think turning DaS into essentially a true strike is that GMs will be much less willing to give it away for a free action, and the feature becomes much better for anyone MCing into investigator than it does for actual investigators. Too much class power is tied into that first attack being successful for “just attack again, but without your class stuff” to really be enough fun to justify such a major errata.
Really, the question for me is when will we get a new rule book that could justify adding the new material? I think a Golarion art of war book could be the right place to fit a bunch of new martial feats and archetypes and fit into a Tian Xia theme or a Casmaron theme.
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I think it is less likely to see an Errata on the class than additional content, especially if the additional content can address the same underlying issue as an errata: give the class something to do specifically when attacking is not a great option.
Additionally, I think turning DaS into essentially a true strike is that GMs will be much less willing to give it away for a free action, and the feature becomes much better for anyone MCing into investigator than it does for actual investigators. Too much class power is tied into that first attack being successful for “just attack again, but without your class stuff” to really be enough fun to justify such a major errata.
Really, the question for me is when will we get a new rule book that could justify adding the new material? I think a Golarion art of war book could be the right place to fit a bunch of new martial feats and archetypes and fit into a Tian Xia theme or a Casmaron theme.
I highly doubt it will be anything next year with Tian Xia being front and centre. "Art of War" could be a possible theme, but even in that theme the Investigator would play a minor role at beast, as it is a tangential connection at best.
Besides that, the Investigator covers such a narrow and separate field that it is honestly hard to fit into anything more general that isn't "APG 2", much like the firearm part of the Gunslinger. So I'm afraid we won't get more than a few things here and there for a while.
If it is a 3, maybe you throw a cantrip (spell attacks are fine btw, Devise only cares about Strikes) or skill actions.Thanks for this. I had not read Devise a Stratagem closely enough and thought it applied to any Attack action. You are correct, it does say Strike and the Cast a Spell activity usually does not include a Strike.
But take care that's pretty expensive to keep cantrips working good during higher levels. You need to take basic/expert/master spellcasting feats to keep you spell proficiency to keep hitting. Maybe have a Shadow Signet and use an attack cantrip as alternative to normal Strikes when not using DaS may be interesting too.
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There are other actions in encounter mode than Strike. There are several that don’t require an Attack roll. Learn to use them.You make it sound like most Investigator players don't know that, which is a very bold assumption to make. You are also proving my point - unlike any other class in the game except the Swashbuckler, the Investigator is literally forced to make these considerations for when their one trick fails. That is not a privilege, that is a punishment. Because all other classes can do that too, they just also have the ability the Strike as well.
You made it sound like you didn’t know that. The class description really doesn’t explicitly point it out and only the Chemist sample does something in the brief description that hints that it is important to always be prepared.
If you don’t want to prepare multiple contingencies, it may be the wrong class for you.
Focus on where the investigator is good rather than where it is bad. Just as you need to play a sorcerer differently than a wizard, you should play the investigator differently than the rogue.
Strategic Strike doesn’t require you to get a target flat footed, making it a lot easier to do than Sneak Attack. It is very easy to do at range, unlike Sneak Attack. The DaS can be free, although as you have pointed out how often that happens will heavily depend on the GM. You know before using the attack if it is likely to hit.
What happens if it's level 1, 2, or 3 where money isn't overflowing in abundance? What happens to bombs and such then?
What happens if the party Bard or Sorcerer has already done Bon Mot or Demoralize? Are not enemies immune to such effects for 10 minutes thereafter making them something of a once per combat ability?
It's nice to write it down on paper, but other people exist too, and also sometimes you simply haven't got the stats to pull off some of these things. Requires a good charisma and to be trained to Feint, or Demoralize.
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With my investigators I also felt a pinch with picking skill feats. Half the skill feats you're going to pick have to be mental. If you're going forensic, this is fine, lots of medicine feats. But you're so MAD, that it costs a lot to also pick up Cha or Wis. But there are so few nice Int skill feats.
Maybe a bunch of Int skill feats that can be repeatedly used in combat could provide a DaS fallback, without Paizo having to walk back previous rules.
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What happens if it's level 1, 2, or 3 where money isn't overflowing in abundance? What happens to bombs and such then?
What happens if the party Bard or Sorcerer has already done Bon Mot or Demoralize? Are not enemies immune to such effects for 10 minutes thereafter making them something of a once per combat ability?
It's nice to write it down on paper, but other people exist too, and also sometimes you simply haven't got the stats to pull off some of these things. Requires a good charisma and to be trained to Feint, or...
The answer is going to depend on the build. I was not trying to provide a complete list of alternative actions but rather point out possibilities. What works for one character may not work for another.
The important point is to have it in mind when you build the character so you have something to do. Not doing so is akin to the barbarian that doesn’t have a bow because they always use their oversized axe.
To you points specific points:
Bombs start at 3 gp each. After your first couple of adventures, affording a few will not be a problem.
Charisma options already used If you regularly travel with the same party and one of the other characters will be regularly doing this, you might want to choose a different alternate action. If it is more like Org Play where the characters aren’t always the same ones, you manage as best you can for the one adventure and think about other ways to deal with the situation In the future.
You are correct that both Intimidate and Bon Mot have a cooldown. Hopefully you don’t have that much bad dice luck that every attempt to Devise a Stratagem results in a miss.
What about… is a great question to ask. Do that as you build your character. You may find answers that I haven’t thought of. In the mean time, I will enjoy having my investigator use Catfolk Dance to befuddle opponents when intimidate and other options don’t work.
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Additionally, I think turning DaS into essentially a true strike is that GMs will be much less willing to give it away for a free action, and the feature becomes much better for anyone MCing into investigator than it does for actual investigators. Too much class power is tied into that first attack being successful for “just attack again, but without your class stuff” to really be enough fun to justify such a major errata.
I don't think the power of the multi-class feats should determine whether a class gets functional abilities. If the class feature is better on other classes that seems like a design flaw in and of itself. It shows exactly why the Investigator needs the buff.
An easy fix for this could be to change the Investigator's DaS to use the word "can", but specifically leave the word "must" on the multiclass feat. I'm not 100% sure how to explain it in the fiction, but then I'm not really sure how the restrictions on DaS are currently explained in the fiction.
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An easy fix for this could be to change the Investigator's DaS to use the word "can", but specifically leave the word "must" on the multiclass feat. I'm not 100% sure how to explain it in the fiction, but then I'm not really sure how the restrictions on DaS are currently explained in the fiction.
A level 1 or level 2 class feature called "That's how it could have happened" that lets you as a free action discard your Devise a Strategem roll. One that can't be picked up from the Archetype.
I regularly see people say "the Investigator is the best at skills", but I think there are a few issues with that claim.
The problem is ability scores. The Investigator is extremely MAD. A regular Investigator is practically forced to start with 18 INT and 16 DEX. ... That means, while you have a broader base competence than essentially all other classes, you'll only ever be the best in things that are INT related and have something to do with the current line of inquiry. ... That is still a lot in most games, but far less than "being the best at skills".
Investigator does indeed require a 16 in DEX to cap AC if they aren't picking up extra armor proficiency. So yes, they will not be able to be better than the Druid at Nature or the Cleric at Religion for the first 9 levels. But then the Investigator has at least a 14 WIS and a +2 from Pursue a Lead, which puts them at 1 less than the dedicated class, which is easily fixed through mutagens as an alchemical Investigator. But the Investigator doesn't even need to be better than the dedicated class because they have Clue Them In, making the dedicated class better just because the Investigator is around. That, and the Investigator could be competing with at least a second dedicated class at that point. While any individual Investigator is not the best in every skill, they will be the best in what they choose to be.
As for needing 16 DEX, I recommend playing a STR Investigator as they are good fun (Takedown Expert and a Griffon Cane are great). As for competing with the Thaumaturge, in a campaign you can generally use Additional Lore to keep up.
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The swap of "can" and "must" really bothers me on a flavor level. It reads to me as "My plan to shoot the guy isn't going to work, so instead I will shoot the guy." That change also benefits the Investigator with a big two-handed club more than the Investigator with a bow or rapier, because the club guy doesn't care about losing out on the Strategic Strike damage. He's just as happy with the free action pseudo-True Strike and his Power Attack.
What I would rather see is medium armor proficiency (because I actually do like the smart muscle archetype) and a couple of feats. Specifically, things like Dueling Parry, Hunter's Aim, and Tamper. Feats or class features that grant an action or reaction if "You used DaS on your last turn and did not replace a roll with your result" would also be nice. Maybe make them comparable to the Inventor's Unstable feats, with 10 minute cooldowns and powerful effects.
I will also say I think there should be less divorce between melee and ranged Investigator's in these discussions. Investigators can swap between melee and ranged easily because of DaS, and any Investigator who doesn't carry a melee and ranged weapon is leaving value on the table.
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I think that if you have limited frequency or an action cost associated, it works out? I could even see a feat that allows you to get Strategic Strike damage at the cost of an additional action on the strike.
How about a focus option? Have "That's how it could have happened" give you a focus point that powers it. You could then have follow up feats that give something else and another focus point as you level up. Focus is an unused space in the class, so why not use it?
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Investigator does indeed require a 16 in DEX to cap AC if they aren't picking up extra armor proficiency.I regularly see people say "the Investigator is the best at skills", but I think there are a few issues with that claim.
The problem is ability scores. The Investigator is extremely MAD. A regular Investigator is practically forced to start with 18 INT and 16 DEX. ... That means, while you have a broader base competence than essentially all other classes, you'll only ever be the best in things that are INT related and have something to do with the current line of inquiry. ... That is still a lot in most games, but far less than "being the best at skills".
I think you mean 18, which is the issue ^^
So yes, they will not be able to be better than the Druid at Nature or the Cleric at Religion for the first 9 levels. But then the Investigator has at least a 14 WIS and a +2 from Pursue a Lead, which puts them at 1 less than the dedicated class, which is easily fixed through mutagens as an alchemical Investigator.
That can differ heavily based on equipment. You won't have a +1 item for more than 2 or 3 skills/Perception at that point, which is not nearly enough to cover all important ones. Meanwhile, they will almost certainly have a +1 item for at least their most important skill.
This most likely changes again on the next level as well. They get their 20/+5 in their key AS, while you presumably get your +3 in WIS/CHA, which cancels out. More importantly, +2 items start to come in. And they'll certainly get one, while you might get one.
You might also want to invest anything in CON eventually, as the Investigator is even squishier than the rogue due to the AS issue and lack of pretty much any defensive options.
But the Investigator doesn't even need to be better than the dedicated class because they have Clue Them In, making the dedicated class better just because the Investigator is around. That, and the Investigator could be competing with at least a second dedicated class at that point. While any individual Investigator is not the best in every skill, they will be the best in what they choose to be.
I mean, as I pointed out, Aid exists and can be used by everyone. Clue In has the advantage of not having to roll and only having to use a reaction in combat. That said, already by the time Master proficiency rolls around at level 7, someone in the party will usually have something good they can use to Aid and roll with a +18 modifier on a DC 20. That is without any Aid feats. Critical successes become common quickly from then on, granting +3 and eventually +4. Without a 10 min cooldown, I might add.
And again, "good" is not the same as "the best". Because while you will be good in many skills, a specialist with a class that has the correct key AS will, after a short bit, always be better than you at anything that isn't INT-based. I get what you want to say, but that statement is objectively wrong and I'd rather not give people the wrong impression and give them false expectations.
The swap of "can" and "must" really bothers me on a flavor level. It reads to me as "My plan to shoot the guy isn't going to work, so instead I will shoot the guy." That change also benefits the Investigator with a big two-handed club more than the Investigator with a bow or rapier, because the club guy doesn't care about losing out on the Strategic Strike damage. He's just as happy with the free action pseudo-True Strike and his Power Attack.
That because the flavour isn't "instead I shoot the guy", but would be "instead I try to hit the guy in a different point or try to compensate for how I saw him dodging my shot" (or something like that). That is exactly the same thing you can do now with switching targets, just not limited to a second person for no reason. There is more than one way to attack a person.
And while I wish the off-brand investigators good luck in their endeavours, what I care about is the regular Investigator, who would appreciate that very much.
What I would rather see is medium armor proficiency (because I actually do like the smart muscle archetype) and a couple of feats. Specifically, things like Dueling Parry, Hunter's Aim, and Tamper. Feats or class features that grant an action or reaction if "You used DaS on your last turn and did not replace a roll with your result" would also be nice. Maybe make them comparable to the Inventor's Unstable feats, with 10 minute cooldowns and powerful effects.
Just in regards to medium armour proficiency, I think they base their vision of the Investigator on the much, much more common "detective" trope in the widest sense. Those are at best lightly armoured, so that looks like an extremely unlikely change to the core proficiencies. That would make for a cool feat, though. Scaling medium armour plus a small goodie to equal the Sentinel Dedication and voila.
I will also say I think there should be less divorce between melee and ranged Investigator's in these discussions. Investigators can swap between melee and ranged easily because of DaS, and any Investigator who doesn't carry a melee and ranged weapon is leaving value on the table.
That's because there is little reason to not hard-commit either way.
For DEX, bows and swords basically do the same damage. Meanwhile the bow - usually a shortbow - has 60ft range (ergo fewer actions wasted on movement), can use special ammunition and doesn't put your extremely squishy behind in melee. You don't need to stay too far away, so with decent positioning you usually can still use skills just fine. DEX melee has the advantage of not triggering the occasional reaction on a reload/ranged attack and that's kinda it? So you'll probably have a melee weapon, you'll just almost never use it.
If you go hard into STR, you'll want to pick up a 2-handed weapon and likely have rather poor-ish DEX. Same deal, but you'll probably use your ranged weapon a bit more often, as flying enemies can be tricky otherwise.
How about a focus option? Have "That's how it could have happened" give you a focus point that powers it. You could then have follow up feats that give something else and another focus point as you level up. Focus is an unused space in the class, so why not use it?
The only minor quibble I have on that is that it makes Investigator want to pick up spellcasting archetypes that give focus points. But there are plenty of class builds that do that anyway.
As for needing 16 DEX, I recommend playing a STR Investigator as they are good fun (Takedown Expert and a Griffon Cane are great).
Why the griffon cane, though? Takedown Expert specifies that you have to use the weapon in one hand, so it is functionally just a d6 with backswing. I mean it looks kinda neat, but it is a downgrade to practically anything else you can use.
I think you mean 18, which is the issue ^^
I do not, because Investigator's don't need that. If you don't have 12 STR you grab a chain shirt, you will have -1 to Stealth and Thievery but that is acceptable. If you don't think it is, then you can have 1 lower AC which I found to also be acceptable.
That can differ heavily based on equipment...You might also want to invest anything in CON eventually
Alchemical Investigator gets mutagens, which provide larger bonuses than permanent items and they have enough to be covered for a day. You also have enough ability boosts to increase CON if you aren't also boosting CHA a bunch. I will also stand by the idea that an Investigator is fine leaving DEX at 18 even if planning on using DEX weapons, and thus can be boosting both CHA and CON after level 5.
as I pointed out, Aid exists and can be used by everyone...
What are you using to Aid in identifying the magic on the tree? Its probably Nature, which you probably don't have raised much because if you did, you wouldn't be the one Aiding unless your party has significant skill overlap. Aid isn't that good in a lot of investigation stuff, because unless there is skill overlap, the Aid just isn't that likely to be applicable nor be a larger bonus outside of physical activities.
And again, "good" is not the same as "the best".
If they aren't the best, who is better? It isn't the Rogue, because the Investigator is just better with Pursue a Lead. Tome Thaumaturge has an argument because of the daily retraining of the Tome, but they have similar MADness issues and don't have Pursue a Lead, Clue Them In, free mutagens, nor as many skill feats.
That because the flavour isn't "instead I shoot the guy", but would be "instead I try to hit the guy in a different point or try to compensate for how I saw him dodging my shot" (or something like that). That is exactly the same thing you can do now with switching targets, just not limited to a second person for no reason. There is more than one way to attack a person.
That is not exactly the same thing at all from my perspective. Saying that "shooting this guy won't work so I shoot at a different guy" is very different from saying "shooting this guy's knee won't work so I will just shoot at him generally". If that flavor works for you, alright, but it sure doesn't work for me.
... what I care about is the regular Investigator ... That would make for a cool feat, though. Scaling medium armour plus a small goodie to equal the Sentinel Dedication and voila.
That change doesn't benefit the "regular" Investigator as much as it does the "off-brand" ones.
I would love to see that feat or the base proficiency change, but I don't have much hope for either.
That's because there is little reason to not hard-commit either way.
I suppose I don't know a good reason to hard commit to one over the other, other than rune costs.
As for advantages for melee, it is easier to justify in-combat Aid while in melee. It also opens space for Athletics and other skill actions you need to be in the front line to easily use, like Battle Medicine. The DEX ones should probably grab a Gunner's Bandolier for easier target switching, though.
Why the griffon cane, though?
The two-hand trait. You can run around with it 2-handed until you need an open hand for Athletics actions on bad DaS or whatever 1-hand actions you have. Takedown Expert lets you not need to put your hand back on for damage and makes it so you can use feats that call for keeping the hand open like Dueling Parry or Combat Grab if you go for them, as well as letting you pull a gun or potion or whatever.
Hatchets are also nice with Sweep+Agile making second attacks on your DaS more frequent.
Ranged combat has a lot of advantages in PF2 over PF1 as far as not needing to invest nearly as much character space to be good at it, but it is also significantly less accurate than melee combat due to cover and no flanking. This is definitely not trivial on a class that doesn’t get a maximized Key attribute. In the specific kinds of fights we are talking about (fighting a powerful solo enemy) it is not uncommon to need a 12 -14 to hit at ranged with devise a stratagem. This is part of why I think it is kind of a waste to just let them attack again on a bad roll. You are losing a big chunk of damage and accuracy.
Melee at least has the advantage of rarely having to deal with cover and attacking a flat footed foe is much easier to set up. Not having to move doesn’t really help the investigator that much with their accuracy and damage issues.
[... things are getting a bit long, so I'll try for a shorter format...]
Very good point on the chain shirt and the griffon cane.
As far as any mutagen-based argument is concerned, I remain unconvinced. All of them have crippling downsides that make the upsides questionable in my eyes, especially on a class that already isn't particularly sturdy, like the Investigator. I also think using your tinctures for other things could be a better use for them, e.g. smokesticks or silversheen (early on). That said, I've not played Alchmeical Investigator yet, so the second part is mostly speculation.
The Dex part is true, though. I personally would go for that +1, but giving it up for some more mental boosts is a good choice as well.
On the topic of Aid, most checks are far more mundane and open to support than that. Thievery to open a lock? Your teammate listens for the movements inside the mechanism, using Perception. Searching a room? Those with poor Perception can still Aid the ones who are better. Need help convincing someone? Recall Knowledge to supply some of their likes, dislikes or vices. Things like that. Aid is incredibly underused exactly because players and GMs limit their thinking like that, but it certainly isn't what the devs intended.
If they aren't the best, who is better? It isn't the Rogue, because the Investigator is just better with Pursue a Lead. Tome Thaumaturge has an argument because of the daily retraining of the Tome, but they have similar MADness issues and don't have Pursue a Lead, Clue Them In, free mutagens, nor as many skill feats.
As I said, any specialist with with a matching key ability score meets and quickly beats the Investigator in anything not INT-related. Multiple skills even, if they want to. Ergo, the Investigator is demonstrably not the best at skills. Neither is the rogue or any other class, for that matter. We simply do not currently have a real "best at skills" candidate. It doesn't seem like that is a niche that Paizo want to establish, which makes sense when you consider that many classes heavily involve skills to some degree and what a massive field it covers. The "covers a wide range of skills well" specialisation that Rogue and Investigator have seems to be the extent they are willing to go to.
And yes, the Rogue also has a fair shot at beating the Investigator in several wide fields, again due to ability scores. Because the Rogue isn't MAD. Most Rogues will beat you in DEX (or STR) all day and DEX has a fair amount of useful skills. They also have the opportunity to start with a 16 in WIS or CHA, in which case they are automatically better than you from 1-10 and 15-19, so most of the game.
I was already forgetting that. For DaS we now also have the new must have Insight Coffee elixir to improve your precision damage to d8s.
This makes DaS more competitive.
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Insight Coffee isn't a mutagen so you can even stack it with Quicksilver/Fury Cocktail if you wanted. It really is just an outright buff to the class's numbers.
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my issue with the Insight Coffee as an obvious boost to the investigator is that it specifically adds more of an all or nothing element to the first roll to devise a stratagem. When that roll is low is really when playing the class hurts, not when you roll well enough to go for the attack.
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[I, too, shall shorten things a bit]
I like mutagens, lots of my characters have some alchemical abilities. I can understand not liking them, but I sure do.
I see Aid used by players in games I run fairly regularly, though I don't see it much in the games I play in (different groups). I find that Aid is not as strong/reliable as Clue Them In, but I admit that is certainly partially because I rarely run or play above level 10. If Aid is frequent and reliable at a table, Investigator is significantly worse because Aid can also cancel out the benefit of Pursue a Lead.
As I said, any specialist ...
We are just going to have to disagree here. I think being able to match (or almost match early on) dedicated specialist classes in their primary skills while also being better than everyone else in multiple other skills should nominate a class for "best at skills".
As for the Rogue, yes the Rogue will likely be better at DEX or STR (but not both) skills at half/most levels. Any other skill group is a wash, however, because while the Rogue could start with a 16 WIS, they can't start with 16 WIS and 16 INT without sacrificing their DEX/STR. While a low level Rogue has an easy time starting with a better bonus in WIS skills (which lasts until about level 9), they will be behind in any INT skill. This, and the Investigator is still getting Pursue bonuses on other skill groups, letting them easily make up for their required INT investment by just being +1 on most things (until they are +2).
Has anyone got much use out of Just one more thing I mean it is hard to a good Charisma score going, but it seems that it would be good as you action efficiency improves at higher level.
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I was already forgetting that. For DaS we now also have the new must have Insight Coffee elixir to improve your precision damage to d8s.
This makes DaS more competitive.
Holy s***t, I compleately missed that among the thousand of alchemical items in TV. Imma make it tea though, as I find those coffe types despicable (I'm Italian, espresso is the only true coffe, praise espresso)
It's very fun that the coffee blend changes your skill bonus! kkkkk
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It's very fun that the coffee blend changes your skill bonus! kkkkk
Yeah, the item is amazing, just gonna make it tea. Cannot bring myself to drink pumpkin spice even in a rpg. Burning orphanages is a thing but there are leghts that make me uncomfortable u.u
just try thaumaturge
that is how paizo fixed investigator
Nobody can convince me thaumaturge is balanced within the framework of the current classes.
They just do too much, too easily, without giving up enough for it.
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Eh, not really.
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just try thaumaturge
that is how paizo fixed investigator
Nobody can convince me thaumaturge is balanced within the framework of the current classes.
They just do too much, too easily, without giving up enough for it.
Well if you compare to Investigator, Inventor and Alchemist maybe yes. But if you compare to Rogue it's fine.
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Thaumaturge is one of the only post-CRB classes that actually compares well (not extremely favorable, just about the same) to CRB classes. It's not overpowered, it's some of the other expansion classes like Witch, Investigator and Inventor who didn't get as much love as what came before them.
Well if you compare to Investigator, Inventor and Alchemist maybe yes. But if you compare to Rogue it's fine.just try thaumaturge
that is how paizo fixed investigator
Nobody can convince me thaumaturge is balanced within the framework of the current classes.
They just do too much, too easily, without giving up enough for it.
Very much disagree!
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Thaumaturge lays bare some of the issues with the other classes; Diverse Lore is incredibly strong, but is it too strong or does it reveal what you actually need to do to get over the struggle that Investigators and Wizards have maintaining their "knowledge master" role? Simply having good Int isn't enough in an edition where half the knowledge skills are Wisdom, and the poor Wizard doesn't even get additional skill increases to compensate.
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I think they should give Wizards a shit ton of lores. Just a free Additional Lore feat every other level. He needs it
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I think the Investigator, if less than the Mastermind Rogue, also highlights the general issues Recall Knowledge has.
The massive penalties imposed by rarity (+2/+5/+10) that, while they make sense, can absolutely destroy a RK-focused character because the GM wanted to throw a cool monster at you. Against bosses, you basically can forget using your ability before like level 15. Add to that the same penalties for re-trying and the RAW inability to ever try again after you failed once on a subject - any reasonable GM will at least allow you to educate yourself further - and the skill action can be rather unreliable. It really makes you question the usefulness of Reason Rapidly if you don't face like three different enemy types. Not to mention any ability based on Recall Knowledge having wildly different results depending on your campaign (speaking from experience, unfortunately).
Add to that the struggle to keep your skills up-to-date that Arachnofiend mentioned. There are six creature identification skills alone, two of them not even based on INT. You probably won't need all of them all the time, but needing about four isn't uncommon. That's 4 of your 5 legendary skills as an Investigatorv just for creature identification, which is very steep. Additional Lore is a great way to supplement that, but again, extremely depends on how your campaign is structured. Especially APs like to feature a wide variety of completely different monsters between books.
And what do you get for that trouble? One piece of information that is a signature of that creature and therefore has a very good chance to become obvious rather quickly. A good GM will give you better info than that and most GMs I've seen ignore this part entirely. But that doesn't help you in PFS and the like.
The Thaumaturge simply doesn't have to deal with all of that. While I still think Diverse Lore is OP, especially for a level 1 feat, even just the base effects of Exploit Vulnerability are often incredibly valuable. Weaknesses, immunities and resistances and so on are key information in any case. The check always scales of your best stat, automatically gets upgraded and doesn't take any rarity/retry penalties except that it is only usable 1/round.