Delay before decrementing duration?

[Baarogue]

The Contrarian wrote:

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

If you cast the spell at Round 1 at the initiative you started with, and it only lasts for 3 rounds, the spell would end at that given initiative in Round 4, no matter how much you try to delay it (or how often your initiative is moved around from other factors).

Source? Seems to me it would end at the start of the caster's (modified) turn.

Don't get distracted arguing that with Darksol. He made up that rule and is now trying to use his own quote as proof. It does work how YOU say

The point of contention we're arguing with the new too-clever guy is that consecutive Delays can't be used to allow you to extend a beneficial spell's duration indefinitely just because you didn't do the bit of Step 1 that counts them down before losing your last turn because you wrapped all the way around to your own initiative order w/o taking it. Many of us believe that, "you can’t Delay to avoid negative consequences that would happen on your turn or to extend beneficial effects that would end on your turn," means beneficial effects should count down when you Delay. If you come back out of Delay in a different spot in initiative order, by RAW that IS the new point when your beneficial effects should count down after that turn. YES, you may ever so slightly extend the duration of your effects, but they should still end on or at most 1 round later than they would have if you never Delayed. But no indefinite Delay shenanigans

[BloodandDust]

SuperParkourio wrote:

Ok, now I'm going to alter the example to see if it's still correct.

<snip>

Adjusted Initiative list:
Goblin
Ally
Me

Up to here it works

SuperParkourio wrote:

Round 3:
Goblin takes turn.
Ally takes turn.
I Delay again. My fire resistance spell has one Round left. I take bleed damage and fail to remove it.

Adjusted Initiative list:
Goblin
Ally
(Bye again)

This part does NOT work. You are already last in initiative order. There is no more delay, unless you want to just skip your turn. If you skip your turn that is fine, but you do not get to change the initiative order again.

"If you Delay an entire round without returning to the initiative order, the actions from the Delayed turn are lost, your initiative doesn’t change, and your next turn occurs at your original position in the initiative order."

SuperParkourio wrote:

Round 4:
Goblin takes turn.
I use a free action to return to the initiative. I take 3 actions and end my turn.

Adjusted Initiative list:
Goblin
Me
Ally

Nope. You delayed for the whole Round, it ended, your initiative does not change (see above) and you only get to act at your original position (last). Your original position is "last" because initiative changes from Delay are permanent.

[BloodandDust]

As a corollary to that, you essentially cannot "delay back to first" in the initiative order. Once you back yourself down the list, that's it, there you are (unless others then delay behind you).

Rounds are not "floating" - they start, everyone has a turn (or skips) and they end. So "delaying the entire Round" is not a big circle, it's just until that Round is over.

[breithauptclan]

BloodandDust wrote:

As a corollary to that, you essentially cannot "delay back to first" in the initiative order. Once you back yourself down the list, that's it, there you are (unless others then delay behind you).

Rounds are not "floating" - they start, everyone has a turn (or skips) and they end. So "delaying the entire Round" is not a big circle, it's just until that Round is over.

That also sounds like a Too Bad to be True ruling. And one that really isn't supported by the Delay rules text.

Delay wrote:

you’re removed from the initiative order. You can return to the initiative order as a free action triggered by the end of any other creature’s turn. This permanently changes your initiative to the new position.

There is no mention in there of not being able to cross round wraparound.

And this:

Delay wrote:

If you Delay an entire round without returning to the initiative order, the actions from the Delayed turn are lost, your initiative doesn’t change, and your next turn occurs at your original position in the initiative order.

wouldn't have much meaning if you couldn't Delay at the end of one round and return to initiative towards the beginning of the next round. An effect that is measured in rounds ticks down at the initiative count of the character that created the effect. You have to wait until your initial initiative count comes up in order to lose your actions for the round.

[SuperParkourio]

Delay wrote:

If you Delay an entire round without returning to the initiative order, the actions from the Delayed turn are lost, your initiative doesn’t change, and your next turn occurs at your original position in the initiative order.

BloodandDust got me thinking. Maybe additional delays in a combat are meant to be counted towards "Delaying an entire round," and "original position in the initiative order" actually refers to the initiative I had at the start of combat rather than when I most recently Delayed. Here's a redo of my example with this in mind.

Initiative list:
Goblin
Me
Ally

Round 1:
Goblin takes his turn dealing 1d4 persistent bleed damage to me.
I cast a spell to gain 5 fire resistance for 3 rounds (no sustaining required). Spend last action to cast Shield. I end my turn, taking the bleed damage and failing the check to remove it.
Ally takes turn.

Round 2:
Goblin takes turn.
I Delay. My fire resist spell has 2 rounds left. Shield ends. I take the bleed damage and fail to remove it.

Adjusted Initiative list:
Goblin
(I used to be here)
Ally

Ally takes turn.
I use free action to return to initiative. I already reduced the fire resistance duration and took the bleed, so I don't do that again. I take 3 actions and end my turn.

Adjusted Initiative list:
Goblin
Ally
Me

Round 3:
Goblin takes turn.
Ally takes turn.
I Delay again. My fire resistance spell has 1 round left. I take bleed damage and fail to remove it.

Adjusted Initiative list:
Goblin
Ally
(Bye again)

Round 4:
Goblin takes turn.
It's too late for me to use a free action to return to the initiative because I have Delayed a total of 1 round. My Delayed turn is wasted and my original initiative restored.

Adjusted Initiative list:
Goblin
Me
Ally

My new turn begins. My fire resistance spell runs out at the start of my turn, and I take bleed damage again at the end, failing to remove it.
Ally takes turn.

[BloodandDust]

breithauptclan wrote:

BloodandDust wrote:

Rounds are not "floating" - they start, everyone has a turn (or skips) and they end. So "delaying the entire Round" is not a big circle, it's just until that Round is over.

That also sounds like a Too Bad to be True ruling. And one that really isn't supported by the Delay rules text.

Delay wrote:

you’re removed from the initiative order. You can return to the initiative order as a free action triggered by the end of any other creature’s turn. This permanently changes your initiative to the new position.

There is no mention in there of not being able to cross round wraparound.

I do not see how the rules are bad, let alone too bad to be true. I mean, delaying is entirely voluntary. The next rules quote you shared spells it out clearly:

breithauptclan wrote:

Delay wrote:

If you Delay an entire round without returning to the initiative order, the actions from the Delayed turn are lost, your initiative doesn’t change, and your next turn occurs at your original position in the initiative order.

That rule shows that Rounds are discrete:

1) If you delay the entire round, the actions are lost,
2) your initiative doesn’t change,
3) your next turn occurs at your original position in the initiative order.
I.e. no wrap around