Since the stance doesn't have the Trip trait, does that mean I couldn't make Trip manuevers at all while in this stance?
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ahh, so if he has one free hand and a shield in the other he couldnt do the Trip? Because that one free hand is only allowed to make Gorilla Slam attacks (which don't come with the ability to trip).
“While in this stance, the only Strikes you can make are gorilla slam unarmed attacks.” APG pg 128
Strikes are different than attacks. Nothing in the stance stops one from making athletics checks. The fact the stance comes with grapple as a trait only means that when one applies potency runes on handwraps, that bonus can apply when making grapple checks. Otherwise, a monk using Gorilla Stance can use athletics maneuvers just fine.
It's also worth mentioning that "Gorilla Slam" isn't actually defined as a Strike made with your hands.
It's very rare for any kind of martial arts to use hands exclusively so you can probably assume most - if not all - monk stances can use their Unarmed Strikes with any part of your body, much like the basic "Fist" Unarmed Strike can also be used with your feet, knees, elbows and so on.
It's also worth mentioning that "Gorilla Slam" isn't actually defined as a Strike made with your hands.
It's very rare for any kind of martial arts to use hands exclusively so you can probably assume most - if not all - monk stances can use their Unarmed Strikes with any part of your body, much like the basic "Fist" Unarmed Strike can also be used with your feet, knees, elbows and so on.
I'm going to say that that one is going to be "talk with your GM." The rules basically don't address it at all, and there are multiple valid interpretations.
If someone wanted to tell me their gorilla stance attacks are made with their feet, I would ask them if they had ever seen gorillas fight. Some of the "you can only make certain attacks" stances are unclear (what exactly is a falling stone attack?) but the animal ones really aren't. The whole idea of martial arts animal styles is to express the qualities seen in the animal (snakes strike quickly, gorillas are overpowering, etc.)
Yeah, but it's also a flavor thing. If someone wants to use the mechanics of Gorilla stands to describe their kicks it seems weird for me as a GM to want to stand in the way of that.
I think it's entirely reasonable to say that you can't get punch effects with your feet... just like you can't wield swords in them. By my judgement, if you want to make kicking attacks, Dragon Stance suggests itself.
And now that we've seen two for and two against in quick succession... well, like I said, I think it's a "talk with your GM" thing.
In any case, you can still make maneuvers as long as you have a free hand no matter what stance you may be in
Also this.
If someone wanted to tell me their gorilla stance attacks are made with their feet, I would ask them if they had ever seen gorillas fight.
I mean, there's also a snake Style in Kung Fu that doesn't exactly focus on biting your enemy or strangling him by wrapping him into your whole body.
Gorilla Stance might as well just focus on a solid low stance (as the feat text implies) and the application of blunt force trauma by various means. Even if such a stance might not be great for kicks (I have nowhere near enough knowledge of martal arts to judge that), there's still techinques like shoulder tackles or headbutts that can be effective attacks without using your hands.
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Unarmed attacks do not "occupy" any hands, it's part of the Unarmed trait...
An unarmed attack uses your body rather than a manufactured weapon. An unarmed attack isn't a weapon, though it's categorized with weapons for weapon groups, and it might have weapon traits. Since it's part of your body, an unarmed attack can't be Disarmed. It also doesn't take up a hand, though a fist or other grasping appendage generally works like a free-hand weapon.
Even if the Gorilla Slam Strike required a hand, you would still always have a hand free for Athletics attacks.
Unarmed attacks do not "occupy" any hands, it's part of the Unarmed trait...
An unarmed attack uses your body rather than a manufactured weapon. An unarmed attack isn't a weapon, though it's categorized with weapons for weapon groups, and it might have weapon traits. Since it's part of your body, an unarmed attack can't be Disarmed. It also doesn't take up a hand, though a fist or other grasping appendage generally works like a free-hand weapon.Even if the Gorilla Slam Strike required a hand, you would still always have a hand free for Athletics attacks.
This is true... but if a hand is occupied with other things (like, say, grappling) then the punching is no longer available from that hand. That's potentially important for certain moves in the Wrestler archetype, for example.
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The only two actions that a Wrestler would need a free hand for are Combat Grab and Snagging Strike, both actions from the Fighter Class, and both actions you wouldn't be using if you already have a creature Grabbed. Everything else requires a you to have a creature Grabbed or Restrained.
And while using the Grapple action requires you to have a free hand, nothing makes that hand occupied after succeeding on the Grapple, so you would still technically have that hand free.
While that is a stupid thought, it's vital for ensuring Wrestlers work properly when you start Grabbing multiple creatures at a time. I still limit the Wrestler in my AV game to grabbing only two creatures at once, but they are perfectly able to use any Strike they want when they Suplex.
This is true... but if a hand is occupied with other things (like, say, grappling) then the punching is no longer available from that hand. That's potentially important for certain moves in the Wrestler archetype, for example.Unarmed attacks do not "occupy" any hands, it's part of the Unarmed trait...
An unarmed attack uses your body rather than a manufactured weapon. An unarmed attack isn't a weapon, though it's categorized with weapons for weapon groups, and it might have weapon traits. Since it's part of your body, an unarmed attack can't be Disarmed. It also doesn't take up a hand, though a fist or other grasping appendage generally works like a free-hand weapon.Even if the Gorilla Slam Strike required a hand, you would still always have a hand free for Athletics attacks.
Ok but Monk Gorilla Slam doesn't require or use a hand. From the description it could be an actual body slam or a kick. So the punching not being available from it is just not possible short of being restrained. You can Gorilla Slam with both hands full. It is other maneuvers that require a hand which are the problem.
Then there are of course all the animal forms available with the WildShaped Wrestler, which pretty obviously require GM intepretation to grapple and trip like the errata now says is possible - as many of them never had hands.
I think it's entirely reasonable to say that you can't get punch effects with your feet.
The GM saying no in this occasion is because he is extrapolating based on how he reads the power. This is fair enough. GMs should fill in the gaps, find ways through things that seem wrong, and interpret powers. However this is not a gap. The rules cover it clearly enough in the way they describe a Fist.
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Most monk unarmed strikes assume you use hands or arms, but not all of them. For example:
Wolf Stance: You enter the stance of a wolf, low to the ground with your hands held like fanged teeth.
Crane Stance: You enter the stance of a crane, holding your arms in an imitation of a crane’s wings and using flowing, defensive motions.
Rain of Embers Stance: You enter the stance of an enraged phoenix, holding your fingers as rigid as deadly talons while moving with quick, flickering gestures that dance with biting flames.
Cobra Stance: You enter a tight stance, coiled up like a lashing cobra with your hands poised as venomous fangs.
Tangled Forest Stance: You extend your arms like gnarled branches to interfere with your foes’ movements.
Furthermore, some stances specify other parts of your body, like Dragon Stance specifying you make "Leg strikes".
There's no real narrative difference between using a free hand while you're not in a stance to grapple and grappling with your gorilla slam attack but one gets the bonus from handwraps while the other doesn't.
You can spin an attack made with a gorilla slam while the hand is occupied as a grip so tight it hurts, slamming the held opponent on nearby hard surfaces or just shaking them vigorously enough to make them bite their tongue, it doesn't matter.
A stance should always give you the corresponding unarmed attack save for some extreme cases like trying to use dragon stance while you have no legs at all.