So from the new rare clockwork reanimator archetype (from alkenstar AP 3) we have this lovely level 12 feat called self destruct. Essentially, when your minion is reduced to 0 hp, you can detonate it for 2*level d6 fire damage in a 30ft radius as a reaction (basic ref, uses higher of class or spell dc). Since it is coming off a construct companion, it'll take a day of downtime to get a new one, but that's probably worth it for two feats (dedication+self destruct).
Now, this will probably get errata because base 24d6 of damage on a low investment ability like this is unlikely to last. But, until that hammer drops I want to know how far we can push it. The obvious starter is final sacrifice as it instantly slays our minion which lets us drop even more d6s of fire in a smaller AoE and, according to the death rules,
When you die, you are reduced to 0 Hit Points if you had a different amount
should be enough to let us also trigger self destruct.
How much more can we stack onto this?
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What do you think it should be errata'd to?
Right now it's twice as much damage as the Inventor's explosion or a Wizard's fireball, with a bigger area. That's quite a bit more damage.
But it's also an ability you can only use once every other day at most (compared to explosion which is every 10 minutes or less with good luck and/or a level 14 feat).
Obviously, the nova potential can't be understated, especially if your GM lets it work with final sacrifice, but I"m still curious what a good number might be in the end.
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I don't think I'd allow Slain to count as Zero hit points. I would think its reasonable to consider Slain to be Dead, not Dying.
Self-Destruct is a useful power, but its basically fireball damage and there is a real cost. So I'm fine with it.
Oh I see it doesn't have the half character level because its a spell. Yes thats big. Expect many GMs to nerf that.
Well, it is fire damage, so the normal things to increase fire damage.
Self Destruct isn't a spell though, so Elemental Zone doesn't work. The Witch Hex Elemental Betrayal does include 'effects' though so that one would add +2 to +6 damage depending on character level.
Flames Oracle's Incendiary Aura wouldn't add damage immediately, but would add persistent damage.
I think one of the new classes (Thaumaturge?) is going to be able to inflict weaknesses onto enemies. Such as Fire damage. I don't remember if there is anything currently that would add or increase a Fire weakness. Other than if you somehow manage to get them to cast Barkskin on themselves or to allow you to cast it on them.
About OP. It's not too different from Final Sacrifice. It's basically a little stronger fireball sacrificing a minion. Basically any caster can do.
The main difference is that a Clockwork Reanimator can do this with no-magic and using a reaction that works like a Final Sacrifice activated by a Contingency condition. But auto-heightened.
That said Self-Destruct isn't stronger it's just very action efficient. Yet it's not something you can activate freely (your construct still need to be destroyed) and you can do only once per day and when loosing your main companion. Not appear to be unbalanced.
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A level 10 Final Sacrifice does 24d6 damage if my math is correct.
Edit: I think it is actually 22d6. But still, not as high as Self Destruct.
Using Self Destruct on a level 20 clockwork companion does 40d6 damage. (Remember, Self Destruct isn't a spell. So when it references level it is meaning character level)
So the balance problem is in the scaling. To balance it better it should probably be doing 1d6 per level damage. That would at least keep it approximately in line with spells such as Fireball and Final Sacrifice.
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I wouldn't spend 2 class feats on something I can only do once a day, TBH.
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I wouldn't spend 2 class feats on something I can only do once a day, TBH.
Less than that, you need a day of downtime to rebuild it, which is why I'm not sure "in line with fireball or explosion" is necessarily an appropriate target number (even if the current damage is very high).
I wouldn't spend 2 class feats on something I can only do once a day, TBH.Less than that, you need a day of downtime to rebuild it, which is why I'm not sure "in line with fireball or explosion" is necessarily an appropriate target number (even if the current damage is very high).
Yeah. Once per adventure arc.
Unless you play PF2 like a Zelda game. At that point you can get it every other day - barring some GM ruling that you can do a little bit of adventuring after spending an entire day of downtime.
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If we consider the difference between:
Level 12 Self Destruct + level 6 Final Sacrifice with Dangerous Sorcery:
24d6 + 12d6 + 6 = 132 damage.
Level 6 Chain Lightning + level 4 Quicken Fireball with Dangerous Sorcery:
8d12 + 6 + 8d6 + 4 = 90 damage.
The Self Destruct combo does 46% extra damage but:
- It costs 3 actions (as you'll need to move your Companion for sure) and a reaction instead of 3 actions.
- It's a bit harder to position as you really don't want to have an ally inside the blast.
- You can't choose what spell you use, it's necessarily Final Sacrifice and Self Destruct.
- You'll need a day to rebuild your companion when you only need to make your Daily Preparations to get Quicken back.
- It costs a level 2 and a level 12 feat instead of a level 10 one.
- It is a Rare Dedication and as such comes with higher limitations (you need another feat to get out of it) and access costs.
- The only real advantage is that it costs one less spell (the level 4 Fireball).
- Also, you have a Companion. But it's really bad. And if you pay feats for it to be better the cost of losing it until rebuilt is higher.
So, it's very strong, and considering how tight the maths are in PF2 I agree that it's a bit out of bounds. But I don't think it's worth any errata as it's far from breaking the game. Mostly because the use is far too limited.
Using Self Destruct on a level 20 clockwork companion does 40d6 damage. (Remember, Self Destruct isn't a spell. So when it references level it is meaning character level)
I didn't notice that.
So the balance problem is in the scaling. To balance it better it should probably be doing 1d6 per level damage. That would at least keep it approximately in line with spells such as Fireball and Final Sacrifice.
Probably an AP misswrite. It doesn't balance with all other game similar effects. Probably the correct is half-lvl here.
Two things:
1) it's Rare, so you won't see it in PFS, and you'll have to get approval from your GM, who will likely be wise to what you're planning, and
2) Adventure Paths don't get Errata*
So your chances of ever getting this combo off are incredibly slim.
Yeah. APs usually don't get an errata so I'm also don't expect a fix here. But I'm agree too I don't expect this in PFS and as GM I would nerf the feat by half-lvl in my tables if someone ask for it.
I don't think I'd allow Slain to count as Zero hit points. I would think its reasonable to consider Slain to be Dead, not Dying.
I suppose that's a question for the rules forum but the quote I pulled is directly from the death section so it seems to me that an instant death effect like final sacrifice explicitly reduces the target's hp to 0 which is the only trigger the ability needs.
As for the rest, yeah it's not super busted or anything and it being rare, I already assume I'll never see it. But, I figure it'll get a dev note or nerfed reprint eventually so we may as well have a little fun with it while it lasts.
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If you (as an individual GM) choose to not let it work with Final Sacrifice or anything similar that would allow you to effectively have a mobile high damage bomb I think that's the only real concern.
If you can't set it off when it's most advantageous to you, and it's limited to once every other day, I think those are appropriate balances to what is otherwise a high damage ability.
Not to mention players usually get attached to their pets and are reluctant to kill them most of the time.
The one to two times in a campaign where they pull this off should be very dramatic.
I've added clockwork reanimator to my allowed archetype list for my iron gods conversion, we'll see if the poppet summoner wants to explode his twin brother.
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It makes sense to me that a GM might rule that once you blow it up with one effect, there really isn't anything worthwhile left with which to blow it up again with a different effect.
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I don't think I'd allow Slain to count as Zero hit points. I would think its reasonable to consider Slain to be Dead, not Dying.
I suppose that's a question for the rules forum but the quote I pulled is directly from the death section so it seems to me that an instant death effect like final sacrifice explicitly reduces the target's hp to 0 which is the only trigger the ability needs.
As for the rest, yeah it's not super busted or anything and it being rare, I already assume I'll never see it. But, I figure it'll get a dev note or nerfed reprint eventually so we may as well have a little fun with it while it lasts.
Too good to be true rule says that Final Sacrifice does not trigger Self-destruct.
Too good to be true rule says that Final Sacrifice does not trigger Self-destruct.
I'm not sure I buy that, but I'm also not prepared to argue it.
Also also... that isn't even the cheesiest thing about Clockwork Reanimator. Take a look at Improved Hijack Undead. Once per hour, you get to take a swipe at an undead who's three or more levels below you. If you hit, and they critfail a will save, you control them for 24 hours. Controlling them doesn't take any actions from you, and you get all the actions they have. All you need at that point is a set of appropriately levlled undead, a set of appropriately sturdy cages to hold them, and an ability to produce Bon Mots, and you get a bunch of super-minions to play with.
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Controlling them doesn't take any actions from you
Improved Hijack (the one with the potential 24 hour duration) specifically makes the target a minion, which does require action investment.
Weirdly makes it kind of a downgrade from the regular version of the ability in some respects.
Well it doesn't seem there's much more to augment the explosion itself. More investment can add more damage directly like upgrading the companion to have an independent action and a multitalented witch dedication for elemental betrayal. That'd take you up from 132 to 156 at level 12 vs the betrayal target.
If we're looking at pure AoE burst we can have both a familiar and an upgraded companion and quicken spell to send the familiar in via independent, final sac it and then send in the construct and sac it+self destruct for a total of: 24d6+12d6+8d6+6+4=164 damage in a 20ft AoE before ally support. Not bad, but by this point, level 10 mooks still won't die on a failed save. At 13, the damage goes up to 187 which still isn't enough to kill the beefier level 10 mooks let alone level 11 mooks.
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Also also... that isn't even the cheesiest thing about Clockwork Reanimator. Take a look at Improved Hijack Undead. Once per hour, you get to take a swipe at an undead who's three or more levels below you. If you hit, and they critfail a will save, you control them for 24 hours. Controlling them doesn't take any actions from you, and you get all the actions they have. All you need at that point is a set of appropriately levlled undead, a set of appropriately sturdy cages to hold them, and an ability to produce Bon Mots, and you get a bunch of super-minions to play with.
I have absolutely no problem with autokill or autocontrol powers for things that are 3 levels+ below your level - they just aren't that relevant outside the proficiency without level variant rule. If you have spent a round focusing on one it has done its job.
I have absolutely no problem with autokill or autocontrol powers for things that are 3 levels+ below your level - they just aren't that relevant outside the proficiency without level variant rule. If you have spent a round focusing on one it has done its job.
My point was more that you could set it up beforehand, and walk into battle with a bunch of controlled undead that (in action efficiency) went well beyond what could otherwise be expected.
I had not noticed that taking the Improved version quietly downgraded them to minions. That makes it significantly less abusable.