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Not finding a clear answer on first pass through the rulebook, so I'm hoping to confirm my instinct on how to handle a certain fiend's special ability. Everybody's best friend the Barbazu/Bearded Devil has the following ability:
Infernal Wound (divine, necromancy) A bearded devil’s glaive Strike also deals 1d6 persistent bleed damage that resists attempts to heal it. The flat check to stop the bleeding starts at DC 20. The DC is reduced to 15 only if the bleeding creature or an ally successfully assists with the recovery. The DC to Administer First Aid to a creature with an infernal wound is increased by 5. A spellcaster or item attempting to use healing magic on a creature suffering from an infernal wound must succeed at a DC 21 counteract check or the magic fails to heal the creature.
Nasty, but fairly straight forward. The question(s) I'm looking for clarity on: how do healing potions and/or elixirs of life interact with said ability? Spellcasters attempting to use healing magic on someone suffering from an Infernal Wound have to make a DC 21 counteract check.
1) Since a healing potion is magical healing, does it also have to make a DC 21 counteract check?
2) If yes (my assumption is yes), is the potion's counteract check modifier derived by looking at the item level, taking the standard DC for that level (DC 15 for a Level 1 Minor Healing Potion, DC 18 for a Level 3 Lesser Healing Potion, etc.) and subtracting 10 to get a modifier (+5 for a Minor Healing Potion, +8 for a Lesser Healing Potion, etc.)?
3) Elixirs of Life don't have the magical trait like a Healing Potion does, so should they be treated the same way vis-a-vis an Infernal Wound? I'd inclined to think yes, as there's no neat/consistent way to treat it like mundane First Aid.
4) Finally, just to nail it down, the requirement for counteract checks and increased DC healing stops after the persistent bleed does, right? The alternative being that the PCs need to heal all the damage caused by the infernal wound(s) before they can heal freely again. That'd not only be potentially brutal for the players, but would also be a PITA for the GM to have to try and track what damage was the result of an Infernal Wound and which wasn't, and then argue whether the Infernal Wound damage has to be healed first before non-Infernal Wound damage can be healed (like an old Laurel & Hardy bit regarding the bottom half of a milkshake), or if they've just a got a pool of damage from a nasty wound that sticks around after their other wounds heal if they can't make a successful counteract check.
Thoughts?
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1. Items are listed, so yes, the healing potion qualifies and must Counteract.
2. That was my first thought, though I haven't a citation.
3. Elixirs seem to fall into a sweet spot where they avoid blocks on healing, i.e. Clay Golem's too. IMO that seem more an oversight than intentional, but that's opinion conflicting with fact: for now alchemy does really get around some of these curses/inflictions/etc. by being non-magical because their wording only addresses magic & Medicine. The alternative is they don't work at all, as they also have no wording for how they would, yet are healing.
4. Yes, the "it" references the Persistent Bleed damage. One doesn't need to do any Counteracting, etc. to heal the person if the Bleed is stopped first, which can be done w/ rolling/assisting first. That is if they're well enough to take the damage. It's severe going unconscious with Persistent damage, going down with an Infernal Wound would be a major threat. (Which might be why elixirs have that loophole! Though I think Paizo tries to avoid requiring such system mastery to flourish in PF2.)
is the potion's counteract check modifier derived by looking at the item level, taking the standard DC for that level (DC 15 for a Level 1 Minor Healing Potion, DC 18 for a Level 3 Lesser Healing Potion, etc.) and subtracting 10 to get a modifier (+5 for a Minor Healing Potion, +8 for a Lesser Healing Potion, etc.)?
I'm not seeing a good explicit rule for this either. Counteract checks are really kind of clunky.
For spells, the counteract check modifier is your spellcasting ability modifier plus your spellcasting proficiency bonus, plus any bonuses and penalties that specifically apply to counteract checks.
That's all that we get. Spells.
For calculating the DC if it isn't given, there is a bit more information.
If you’re counteracting an affliction, the DC is in the affliction’s stat block. If it’s a spell, use the caster’s DC. The GM can also calculate a DC based on the target effect’s level.
So what you have suggested for a counteract modifier coming from an item seems quite reasonable. And is as good as anything else that I can think of.
Some other things I can think of:
* Use the medicine skill modifier of the character giving the potion/elixir.
* Use the class DC/spell DC of the character giving the potion/elixir - also converted back to a bonus by subtracting 10.
* If they crafted the potion/elixir, use their crafting skill modifier or magical tradition skill modifier that they used to craft the potion/elixir with.