I'm thinking about a few spare characters for our main campaign and got a bit stuck when designing a Champion. We play with free archetype and can have 2 archetypes at the same time, only needing to pay one off before getting a third one.
My current character is the party crafter and I'd like to keep it that way. My spare characters should be good at crafting if at all possble. So I'm going for medium-high Int and low Charisma on this one. Current idea is a dwarf oread paladin of Soralyon, wielding a pick and a shield; going all in on the stone/craft/bodyguard theme. But that's not set in stone (see what I did there...?). Stats would look something like 18, 10, 14, 14, 14, 8.
Anyway, I want some arcane magic so I'll go Wizard Multiclass. Maybe Witch if I'm feeling fancy, but more likely Wizard. Wizard class feats mostly suck for what I want to do so I'm limited to the dedication and the 4 spellcasting feats. Champion feats are also a bit meh at some levels, especially early on, so I got like 8 or 9 open feat slots for another archetype or two (or three).
My charisma is low, so no sorcerer, marshal or bard (which would usually be my go-to options). I thought about going Inventor but I somehow don't want a weird weapon and the armor innovation is useless to me since I can't get the heavy armor upgrade. I'd also mostly pick up Reverse Engineer and maybe Searing Restoration. Not sure that's worth going into the archetype for. Doubling up on Wizard and Witch would most likely give me more spell slots than I ever want/need in a single day, so that's out as well.
I thought maybe cleric? Not for spells but for the Emblazon feats for some extra damage. Replenishment of War seems like a great capstone for a defensive character.
Soulforger would also be an option but I'm not convinced that a half-decent once per day buff is worth the feat investment.
I even considered Sentinel for Mighty Bulwark and Steel skin. But the Dedication is completely wasted. Bastion is another favorite of mine but I doubt I can fit in yet another reaction between Retributive Strike, Shield Block and AoO.
Anyone got any good ideas that fit the build or theme?
Intelligence based Champion?
Investigator is fine. Devise a Strategy is a good approach if you have a second target to hit.
Alchemy also works as you can use most of its as small buffs and not spend too many actions on it in combat unless there is something especially important.
Witch multiclass and Wizard multiclass are fairly equivalent if you are set on Arcane tradition. Witch has a bit better focus spells and is slightly more flexible with one of the cantrips being traded for a 1-ability familiar - which can be used to get the second cantrip back, or used for something else. Wizard does have a bit better metamagic feats and you don't have to worry about a familiar if you don't want one.
I also second Gortle's suggestion of Alchemist archetype. I like that one a lot.
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I think you don't get deity spells with a cleric dedication.
Actually, you do. I was missing this for the longest time until someone on reddit pointed it out to me.
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It's interesting how all suggestions are multiclass archetypes. I did go through all the other archetypes myself and was wondering if I'm missing any that would be great for this. Guess not.
Anyway, thanks for the suggestions so far! Here's my thoughts on them:
Alchemist: That's what my current character (inventor) does. But she has Bastion and will get Nimble Shield hand at level 6, making the use of alchemical items much more feasible. Without it, I don't feel like I'd ever have the actions to actually use an Elixir in combat. Which leaves long-term buffs, which can be nice but relying only on those doesn't seem that exciting.
Cleric: The build is mostly meant as a direct replacement for my Inventor in case she dies. We have a support-y cleric and a flame oracle in the party already and they are our only spellcasters (unless you count the Captivator Monk). I really don't think we need more Divine Magic. I chose Arcane magic specifically to provide the kind of magic the divine casters can't cover.
Invstigator: Stratagem seems a bit too costly when it comes to actions. My Inventor is already struggling with action economy so I'd like the Champion to be a bit more simple. I also don't really have a useful action if the Stratagem roll is bad and having another enemy in reach without a reach weapon can be challanging.
Magus: I though about that. Not sure how a cantrip Spellstrike compares to just doing two regular Strikes, though. It feels like it should be more damage since the Champion doesn't have any noteworthy damage bonuses. Hurtling Stone doesn't seem like a great idea, dealing only about 2 more damage than Gouging Claws while not having it's bleed on a crit. Not worth a feat and a focus point. Getting Shielding Strike for action economy is pretty attractive, however. I would need to squeeze Devoted Focus and maybe even Desperate Prayer into the build to make good use of it, though. But that seems doable.
Witch: The free familiar is nice but I'd usually go witch over wizard for the focus spell. The problem is, I don't have the actions to sustain Elemental Betrayal (but man would our flame oracle love me for this). And Life Boost isn't that much better than LoH. It heals 33% more (not sure where Raze Le'Roof got 66% from?) but does so slower, having a less immediate impact in combat.
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I think I like the idea of going Magus early on. Grab Spellstrike, Shielding Strike and maybe a familiar to regain that second focus point once per day. And I should probably get Desperate Prayer early. Later switch to Wizard for some actual spellpower. The spellcasting feats aren't amazing early on anyway so I don't mind delaying them to level 8+.
A quick first draft leaves me with empty free archetype feat slots at level 16 and 20. Probably not enough to get something out of a third archetype. Magus class feats are a bit meh and the good ones are all locked behind stuff I don't have (I would LOVE Dazzling Block as a capstone). I guess Rapid Recharge would be ok?
But yeah, a Spellstrike Crit with a Pick and Gouging Claws definitely has some appeal. :D
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On an Int-based melee martial, I think Magus beats everything else. The main drawback of Magus Dedication is the need for 14 Intelligence. If you have it, there's so much value in Spellstrike that it'll be hard to find any competition.
Does anyone have a comparison between 2 Champion Strikes and a Spellstrike with Gouging Claws at hand, by any chance?
Going Wizard and spending an extra feat on a familiar is pretty stupid, all things considered. Witch + Enhanced Familar does nearly the same and gets me double the amount of abilities. Only downside I can think of is no sharing spells between Magus and the caster dedication, but that's minor considering I don't get the magus spellcasting feats.
Basic Lesson and Enhanced Familiar are both acquired from Basic Witchcraft. So either would restore the lost familiar ability.
Does anyone have a comparison between 2 Champion Strikes and a Spellstrike with Gouging Claws at hand, by any chance?
What is your attack bonus in both cases, What is the enemy's AC, what weapon damage are you dealing, and what level is Gouging Claws heightened to?
Expected value of an attack is fairly easy to calculate: (probability of hit * average damage from hit) + (probability of crit * average damage from crit)
Does anyone have a comparison between 2 Champion Strikes and a Spellstrike with Gouging Claws at hand, by any chance?
Citricking's tool is super easy to use, you should give it a try.
Witch + Enhanced FamilarWitch (dedication) + Basic Lesson + Enhanced familiar gives you double the benefits.
Well, I don't want to spent actions to sustain a hex and the only one without the need to sustain is largely redundant with Lay on Hand. So this once I'm considering going Witch without picking up basic lesson.
But a familiar is quite easy to get ( adopeted ancetry gnome ).
I already have a solid ancestry and a versatile heritages. I really don't need even more n entry feats to choose from.
Why not taking magus spellcasting though?
Because it sucks, honestly. 3 feats for 4 spells is terrible, especially since you're limited to 3 spells per day all the way to level 17.
@breithauptclan: I can do the math myself in a spreadsheet if need be. I just thought maybe someone might have already done it and save me the effort. I'm lazy that way. :D
Does anyone have a comparison between 2 Champion Strikes and a Spellstrike with Gouging Claws at hand, by any chance?Citricking's tool is super easy to use, you should give it a try.
Thanks! So Spellstrike is indeed stronger than 2 regular Strikes. Well, I guess it should be otherwise the whole magus class would be pointless.
I looked at the tool multiple times but never had the patience to really get into it.
Does anyone have a comparison between 2 Champion Strikes and a Spellstrike with Gouging Claws at hand, by any chance?Citricking's tool is super easy to use, you should give it a try.
Thanks! So Spellstrike is indeed stronger than 2 regular Strikes. Well, I guess it should be otherwise the whole magus class would be pointless.
I looked at the tool multiple times but never had the patience to really get into it.
Way stronger. First, I have used Gouging Claw, when a Champion can grab good Focus Spells (Fire Ray for example).
Second, I've used a Greatsword with Max Strength and full Elemental Runes as early as possible for the comparison. I don't know what weapon you intend to use, but lower die weapons will show a bigger difference.Third, if you fail your Spellstrike, using a Hero Point (or any way to Reroll) is way more interesting than if you fail a normal attack.
I consider Magus Dedication to be extremely strong on any melee martial if you have the Intelligence (which is quite a high cost).
And the last version of the tool is super easy to use (on top of being extremely thorough). 10 minutes using it is enough to grab the basic concepts.
Going Wizard and spending an extra feat on a familiar is pretty stupid, all things considered. Witch + Enhanced Familar does nearly the same and gets me double the amount of abilities. Only downside I can think of is no sharing spells between Magus and the caster dedication, but that's minor considering I don't get the magus spellcasting feats.
Wizard + one feat on familiar: 2 cantrips, 2 familiar traits
Witch + one feat on familiar: 1 cantrip, 4 familiar traitsWitch + cantrip expansion: 3 cantrips, 2 familiar traits
losing a cantrip counts as a downside... but there is another way.
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Witch + cantrip expansion: 3 cantrips, 2 familiar traits
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The problem I see here is that Cantrip Expansion only lets you prepare two additional cantrips. It doesn't add any cantrips to your familiar. The Witch Dedication only grants 2 known cantrips, and you don't get the Learn a Spell activity unless you take the Basic Spellcasting feat. So while those two feats grant you 3 cantrip "slots" (4 if you give your familiar the Cantrip Connection ability), without Basic Spellcasting you only have two known cantrips that you can fill them with.
I really like cantrips so I usually prefer Wizard MC or Magus MC. The dedications give you 4 known cantrips so taking Cantrip Expansion let's you use all 4 "slots" by 4th level. (Or 3 "slots" if you use Familiar -> Cantrip Connection instead of Cantrip Expansion).
My comment was in reference for his desire for wizard archetype. Witch archetype>wizard archetype as you get access to better focus spells and the ability to pick your magic type. I much prefer occult over arcane on an archetype.
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I'm looking forward to Psychic Multiclass hopefully allowing Int-based, spontaneous Occult casting.
Finally have the time to write an actual response to a few posts here.
@SuperBidi: I'll most likely use a Pick so the damage difference should be even more substantial than in your example. Those Fatal Crits with the additional bleed damage from Gouging Claws should be brutal. And yeah, I totally plan to burn my hero points fishing for them.
@cavernshark: I looked at the Archeologist and the flavor is indeed quite fitting. However, we already have a party memeber with a strong focus on Society, and Thievery won't be great for me because of my low Dexterity. So I'm not super convinced the mechanical side of the Archetype will be all that useful.
@HumbleGamer: Your spell comparison falls apart as soon as the full caster archetype takes his Breadth feat, and I'm not exactly starving for feats on this build so I'll definitely pick it up.
Using scrolls to supplement spellcasting is a hassle for a character who wields a weapon and a shield. I can also think of plenty of uses for lower level spells. First level has True Strike. Second Level has good defensive options like Blur and Mirror Image - and at high levels my familiar can cast one of those on my once per day, giving me a kinda-sorty quicken spell. Third level has the amazing Warding Agression, not to mention Haste. And that's still only combat related spells. I can still use items for Utility Stuff.
@Sanityfaerie: My plan is deifintely to go Witch Dedication for the Familiar and picking up Enhanced Familiar via Basic Witchcraft. Gives me one Cantrip and 4 abilities. Or 2 cantrips and 3 abilities if I spend one on Cantrip Connection. Not sure I actually need that second Cantrip since I already got 2 from Magus Dedication but either way it's not hard to come up with 3-4 good familiar abilities.
@nicholas storm: All good suggestions but not quite fitting what I want to do. Acrobat on a dwarf in Full Plate is just too weird. Bastion adds yet another reaction to my already-too-long list of reactions. Medic is largely useless since I don't have a free hand and I really don't like having a large mount or companion so Champion and Beastmaster are out.
Dragon Disciple seems a bit hard to justify given the flavor. And I would usually consider it cheesy to go into it for high physical resistance. But on the other hand, I was considering a more crystal than stone flavor so Crystal Dragon could fit in there somewhere. I still gon two "empty" archetype feat slots at levels 16 and 20 so this could be a late game addition to get some extra resistance. I'll think about that, thanks!
@Gisher: I'm like 99.99% positive my GM will allow me to learn new cantrips for my witch archetype at any time. He's just reasonable that way. But I'm also not sure why you wouldn't get Learn a Spell from the Witch Dedication. Yes, by some reading of RAW you need to have the basic spellcasting before you count as having a spellcasting feature to use learn a spell. But since Logan recently clarified that you can use items like scrolls - which have the same requirement - with the dedication alone, I would apply the same rule to Learn a Spell.
@The Raven Black: I don't think I like the flavor of Angradd and I think I'll use my focus points on defensive stuff like Lay on Hands and Shielding Strike. But thanks for the suggestion.
Bredth feat is an extra lvl 8 feat, giving you almost nothing.
By lvl 14 you you find yourself with 1x lvl 1 and 1x lvl 2 spells.
I'd say useless, but this goes far beyond.
And the progression doesn't get any better up to 20.
It's actually an extra 1st, 2nd and 3rd level slot at level 14. ;)
And it goes up to giving you an additional slot up to level 6. Plenty of great spells there. The bounded caster ends up with two 6th and two 7th level slots. The full caster has two 6th and one 7th and 8th level slot. And another 10 sltos of lower levels. I'll gladly pay another feat for that, especially on a free archetype character.
I agree that the breadth feat doesn't do enough early on, but in the long run it grants 6 spell slots, which is more than any other single feat. And yes, those slots are of a lower level, but that hardly makes them worthless.
Thanks! Looks like a more optimized version of my build. Doesn't quite hit the flavor I want, though. And I can't wrap my head around a dwarven sylph.
Oh, and Dwarven Reinforcement doesn't work on shields. Mark recently even said on reddit it's worded specifically to exclude shields.
(I know he's no longer at paizo but he was a designer back when the feat was written.)
Real fast bastion costs you reactions but also gives you a means to have free hands while wearing a shield and an extra reaction to shield block so it makes you efficient.