Scales of the dragon and drakeheart mutagen


Rules Discussion


Maybe this one has already been discussed, but couldn't find it... so:

I was tweaking an alchemist on the 2e builder, and looked that the scales of the dragon ( dragon disciple lvl 4 feat ) gives a cap of 2 dex and +2 status AC.

The drakeheart mutagen gives an item bonus to your ac which applies if you are unarmored.

Assuming a lvl 13 alchemist ( but this could be available since lvl 4 ) we are going to have

AC= 10(Flat)+ 13(level)+ 4(Proficiency)+ 2(Status from Scales of the Dragon)+ 2(DEX)+ 6(Item bonus from lvl 11 drakeheart elixir )+ 2(Raise shield action ) = 39 AC.

It's basically the same AC a shield champion is going to get.

I know that being unarmored would result into no Fortification rune ( that the more the game proceeds, the better for a frontline character ), as well as the possibility of an ambush ( being without the drakeheart elixir for the first round might be tragic ) but is all of this intended? Or did I read the misread a feat?

Liberty's Edge

Sounds legit to me. Choose the Crystal or Forest dragon when taking the Dragon Disciple dedication, so that at level 13, you have Resistance 9 to Piercing damage (ie the most common type) for whatever goes through your 39 AC.


Yep, that'll stack. I wonder if they'll errata it like they did with the mountain stance that stacked with drakeheart. That was a lot more egregious than this though.


The Raven Black wrote:
Sounds legit to me. Choose the Crystal or Forest dragon when taking the Dragon Disciple dedication, so that at level 13, you have Resistance 9 to Piercing damage (ie the most common type) for whatever goes through your 39 AC.

I looked into that too, but seems that either pathbuilder 2e and nethys don't allow kobolds to take the new dragons ( what I mean is that in the kobold description there are just the basic dragons, while for sorcerer and barbarian there's the possibility to choose between different ones ).

ps: obviously the cosmos oracle is not an ancestry, it's a mystery which enfeebles the character, and has weapon and armor proficiency as a spellcaster, so I won't consider it.


aobst128 wrote:
HumbleGamer wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
Sounds legit to me. Choose the Crystal or Forest dragon when taking the Dragon Disciple dedication, so that at level 13, you have Resistance 9 to Piercing damage (ie the most common type) for whatever goes through your 39 AC.
I looked into that too, but seems that either pathbuilder 2e and nethys don't allow kobolds to take the new dragons ( what I mean is that in the kobold description there are just the basic dragons, while for sorcerer and barbarian there's the possibility to choose between different ones ).
I suspect that something like a crystal kobold suggests they could get resistance to piercing damage at level 1 and that would be too good.

I totally agree.

Giving physical resistance = half lvl by lvl 1 would be total nonsense.


Better yet, a 13th level kobold mutagenist can have that 39 AC with 4-5 resistance to all physical damage with 30 temp hp to work with.


aobst128 wrote:
Better yet, a 13th level kobold mutagenist can have that 39 AC with 4-5 resistance to all physical damage with 30 temp hp to work with.

Yeah that's pretty nice too.


Talking about the dragon disciple archetype, couldn't find the DC for the given Breath of the dragon.

Is the spell supposed to be an innate spell and because so Charisma based with proficiency equal to your class dc?

Liberty's Edge

HumbleGamer wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
Sounds legit to me. Choose the Crystal or Forest dragon when taking the Dragon Disciple dedication, so that at level 13, you have Resistance 9 to Piercing damage (ie the most common type) for whatever goes through your 39 AC.

I looked into that too, but seems that either pathbuilder 2e and nethys don't allow kobolds to take the new dragons ( what I mean is that in the kobold description there are just the basic dragons, while for sorcerer and barbarian there's the possibility to choose between different ones ).

ps: obviously the cosmos oracle is not an ancestry, it's a mystery which enfeebles the character, and has weapon and armor proficiency as a spellcaster, so I won't consider it.

You get the resistance through Dragon Disciple, not through being a Dragonscaled kobold.


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HumbleGamer wrote:

Talking about the dragon disciple archetype, couldn't find the DC for the given Breath of the dragon.

Is the spell supposed to be an innate spell and because so Charisma based with proficiency equal to your class dc?

I recognize this question.

I don't think it ever got a completely resolved answer.


Without any sort of described DC, doesn't it default to an innate spell?


The Raven Black wrote:
HumbleGamer wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
Sounds legit to me. Choose the Crystal or Forest dragon when taking the Dragon Disciple dedication, so that at level 13, you have Resistance 9 to Piercing damage (ie the most common type) for whatever goes through your 39 AC.

I looked into that too, but seems that either pathbuilder 2e and nethys don't allow kobolds to take the new dragons ( what I mean is that in the kobold description there are just the basic dragons, while for sorcerer and barbarian there's the possibility to choose between different ones ).

ps: obviously the cosmos oracle is not an ancestry, it's a mystery which enfeebles the character, and has weapon and armor proficiency as a spellcaster, so I won't consider it.

You get the resistance through Dragon Disciple, not through being a Dragonscaled kobold.

Oh, I see now. By RAW the only one tied to the Heritage (bloodline) is the sorcerer, while a "Red Dragon" kobold or a "Black Dragon" Dragon Barbarian could take the Crystal Dragon, being some sort of a hybrid.

I wonder whether it's intended or not.
Have to say it's kinda weird.


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aobst128 wrote:
Without any sort of described DC, doesn't it default to an innate spell?

Did you read the other thread I linked to?

There are several people there who make very good points - with rules citations - indicating that a focus spell is never an innate spell. Omitting the DC is an error in the rule for the feat since you can get the archetype and feat without having an existing spellcasting tradition.


breithauptclan wrote:
indicating that a focus spell is never an innate spell.

But we have the Dragon Prince which is an innate focus spell.

Or did you mean "you won't have to tap into your focus pool with innate spells?"


HumbleGamer wrote:
breithauptclan wrote:
indicating that a focus spell is never an innate spell.

But we have the Dragon Prince which is an innate focus spell.

Or did you mean "you won't have to tap your focus pool with innate spells?"

That one is weird in that it turns an existing focus spell into an innate spell since it doesn't give you a focus point pool.


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What it's missing is making you trained in arcane, and your stat is charisma. Makes the most sense.


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aobst128 wrote:
HumbleGamer wrote:
breithauptclan wrote:
indicating that a focus spell is never an innate spell.

But we have the Dragon Prince which is an innate focus spell.

Or did you mean "you won't have to tap your focus pool with innate spells?"

That one is weird in that it turns an existing focus spell into an innate spell since it doesn't give you a focus point pool.

It doesn't even turn the spell into an innate spell really. It is just using the existing rules for the focus spell and making an innate spell that uses that rule text rather than reprinting it.


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Scales of the Dragon has been marked for Errata a very long time ago, if I'm not mistaken. Prepare for it to be reigned in significantly. I assume they'll just turn it into an item bonus that stacks with those armor Potency runes, just like they did with Mountain Stance.

I just hope they change the numbers to something like +3 item bonus with dex cap of +2. Would make the feat actually useful.


Blave wrote:

Scales of the Dragon has been marked for Errata a very long time ago, if I'm not mistaken. Prepare for it to be reigned in significantly. I assume they'll just turn it into an item bonus that stacks with those armor Potency runes, just like they did with Mountain Stance.

I just hope they change the numbers to something like +3 item bonus with dex cap of +2. Would make the feat actually useful.

Yeah, that would at least put it on par with medium armor.


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HumbleGamer wrote:
but is all of this intended? Or did I read the misread a feat?

I don't think you have. I think its fine. The Alchemist has just a few things it is good at. This is one.

The alchemical items like DrakeHeart Mutagen and Bestial Mutagen do break out of the normal boundaries of the game.

The point to note is that those Mutagens both have the Polymorph trait so they don't stack with each other or say a BattleForm Spell. However Scales of the Dragon does not have the Polymorph trait so it can stack.


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breithauptclan wrote:
HumbleGamer wrote:

Talking about the dragon disciple archetype, couldn't find the DC for the given Breath of the dragon.

Is the spell supposed to be an innate spell and because so Charisma based with proficiency equal to your class dc?

I recognize this question.

I don't think it ever got a completely resolved answer.

True. The best answers though were its just undefined by the game. Let's not make it useless. The GM should choose either class DC or a spell casting DC appropriate to how the character qualified for Dragon Disciple.


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I really hope that however it gets erratad, somehow we still get a status bonus to ac while while shaped. To me that's basically the point, to keep dragon form ac up in the late game.


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Blave wrote:

Scales of the Dragon has been marked for Errata a very long time ago, if I'm not mistaken. Prepare for it to be reigned in significantly. I assume they'll just turn it into an item bonus that stacks with those armor Potency runes, just like they did with Mountain Stance.

I just hope they change the numbers to something like +3 item bonus with dex cap of +2. Would make the feat actually useful.

Maybe but +2 status Bonus to AC is not that broken. It doesn't have to be errated. It is costly to qualify for. I mean the bard has a cantrip that gives every ally in an 60ft area +1 AC. So on the scale of powers its not far out of whack.


Gortle wrote:
Blave wrote:

Scales of the Dragon has been marked for Errata a very long time ago, if I'm not mistaken. Prepare for it to be reigned in significantly. I assume they'll just turn it into an item bonus that stacks with those armor Potency runes, just like they did with Mountain Stance.

I just hope they change the numbers to something like +3 item bonus with dex cap of +2. Would make the feat actually useful.

Maybe but +2 status Bonus to AC is not that broken. It doesn't have to be errated. It is costly to qualify for. I mean the bard has a cantrip that gives every ally in an 60ft area +1 AC. So on the scale of powers its not far out of whack.

One benefit of changing it to an item bonus (á la Mountain Stance) is that it would allow Dragon Disciples to benefit from things like Inspire Defense or Protective Ward.

Liberty's Edge

Gisher wrote:
Gortle wrote:
Blave wrote:

Scales of the Dragon has been marked for Errata a very long time ago, if I'm not mistaken. Prepare for it to be reigned in significantly. I assume they'll just turn it into an item bonus that stacks with those armor Potency runes, just like they did with Mountain Stance.

I just hope they change the numbers to something like +3 item bonus with dex cap of +2. Would make the feat actually useful.

Maybe but +2 status Bonus to AC is not that broken. It doesn't have to be errated. It is costly to qualify for. I mean the bard has a cantrip that gives every ally in an 60ft area +1 AC. So on the scale of powers its not far out of whack.

One benefit of changing it to an item bonus (á la Mountain Stance) is that it would allow Dragon Disciples to benefit from things like Inspire Defense or Protective Ward.

Not all Dragon Disciples take Scales of the dragon.


Gortle wrote:
Maybe but +2 status Bonus to AC is not that broken. It doesn't have to be errated. It is costly to qualify for. I mean the bard has a cantrip that gives every ally in an 60ft area +1 AC. So on the scale of powers its not far out of whack.

That cantrip costs an action every turn. And a feat. Or two feats if you happen to pick another muse. Or three feats if you happen to not be a bard at all. And it competes with the other excellent Compositions of the bard.

A 4th level feat providing a passive +2 status to all attack rolls available to all classes would still be ridiculously powerful, even though Inspire Courage exists.

That passive bonus stacking with everything else is a pretty huge issue. Combine it with a mountain stance monk and you have the highest AC in the game, 2 more than even full plate provides. And it still stacks with a shield.

As for the "costly to qualify for" part, it's easy enough to play a Kobold and I think many GMs just allow most Uncommon archetypes if you can provide a story-reason - which is easy enough to do.


Cost is the two feats to get.
Yes I'll concede its too strong on a Monk if that is a wierd Monk build with 14 Dex.


14 Dex seems pretty standard on a Mountain Stance Monk, no?


It's handy for kobold dragon stance monks that want to make use of dragon roar. Keep dex at 14 to bump charisma.


Blave wrote:
14 Dex seems pretty standard on a Mountain Stance Monk, no?

I guess. But even so that is a Monk that is a point of AC behind the other monks isn't it - I have to confess my local groups don't play monks much at all. I'll have to invesitigate....


Montain Stance is actually better AC on some levels then the Dex Stances (except Crane) and becomes the best stance for AC at level 14 with Mountain Quake. It eventually grants a +4 item bonus and a Dex Cap of up to +2, so it basically ends up as heavy armor. Only way for a Monk to match a Champion's AC. Well, besides Crane Style, but that doesn't stack with a shield, so Mountain still comes out on top.


Blave wrote:
Montain Stance is actually better AC on some levels then the Dex Stances (except Crane) and becomes the best stance for AC at level 14 with Mountain Quake. It eventually grants a +4 item bonus and a Dex Cap of up to +2, so it basically ends up as heavy armor. Only way for a Monk to match a Champion's AC. Well, besides Crane Style, but that doesn't stack with a shield, so Mountain still comes out on top.

For 3 levels 14-16 till Monks start having +6 dex bonuses?

Monks and Animal Barbarians using shields is not something that sits well with me. Seems flavourwise like one of the worst parts of PF2.


Gortle wrote:
Blave wrote:
Montain Stance is actually better AC on some levels then the Dex Stances (except Crane) and becomes the best stance for AC at level 14 with Mountain Quake. It eventually grants a +4 item bonus and a Dex Cap of up to +2, so it basically ends up as heavy armor. Only way for a Monk to match a Champion's AC. Well, besides Crane Style, but that doesn't stack with a shield, so Mountain still comes out on top.

For 3 levels 14-16 till Monks start having +6 dex bonuses?

Monks and Animal Barbarians using shields is not something that sits well with me. Seems flavourwise like one of the worst parts of PF2.

Works with peafowl stance. Sword and shield master sort of deal. Everyone else, it's weird but good.


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Gortle wrote:
For 3 levels 14-16 till Monks start having +6 dex bonuses?

Explorer's Clothing and Bracers of Armor have a dex cap of +5. You can go without them, but then you're losing armor potency runes (not to mention Resilient runes), which will lower your overall AC (and saves). So Mountain is ahead levels 14-20.

And also 6-9, thanks to Mountain Stronghold. Which also serves a a flavorful alternative to your shield problem, by the way. :)

Liberty's Edge

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Gortle wrote:

Cost is the two feats to get.

Yes I'll concede its too strong on a Monk if that is a wierd Monk build with 14 Dex.

Also it's a dedication. So a third feat to exit before taking another archetype.


Blave wrote:

I just hope they change the numbers to something like +3 item bonus with dex cap of +2. Would make the feat actually useful.

That would be perfect.

I'd also be cool with a new high level ( lvl 12+ ) feat meant to strengthen the scales, giving the full plate AC and the bulwark perk...

Liberty's Edge

Wouldn't it be redundant with Sentinel ?


The Raven Black wrote:
Wouldn't it be redundant with Sentinel ?

Alternatives.

Sentinel would give the armor specialization and would require the user to just get +1 dex rather than +2.

It would also give the possibility to get a fortification rune.

Also, one would be a draconic accolite/zealot while the other just a character wearing a better armor.

The more, the merrier.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Blave wrote:
Gortle wrote:
Maybe but +2 status Bonus to AC is not that broken. It doesn't have to be errated. It is costly to qualify for. I mean the bard has a cantrip that gives every ally in an 60ft area +1 AC. So on the scale of powers its not far out of whack.

That cantrip costs an action every turn. And a feat. Or two feats if you happen to pick another muse. Or three feats if you happen to not be a bard at all. And it competes with the other excellent Compositions of the bard.

A 4th level feat providing a passive +2 status to all attack rolls available to all classes would still be ridiculously powerful, even though Inspire Courage exists.

That passive bonus stacking with everything else is a pretty huge issue. Combine it with a mountain stance monk and you have the highest AC in the game, 2 more than even full plate provides. And it still stacks with a shield.

As for the "costly to qualify for" part, it's easy enough to play a Kobold and I think many GMs just allow most Uncommon archetypes if you can provide a story-reason - which is easy enough to do.

It would be insanely broken. It would literally be a must take archetype for anything resembling a martial.

Look at how good sentinel is now, and that is just +1 vs medium and comes with a speed penalty. This would be sentinel to the nth power.


Does this spell still provide a Dex cap of +2, according to the archives of Nethys it shows +3?


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If you are talking about scales of the dragon, it is +3 DEX, +2 Item bonus; so doesn't stack with drakeheart mutagen anymore.

Grand Archive

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Scales of the Dragon has an item bonus of +2 and dex cap of +3.

Drakeheart Mutagen is a variable item bonus with a max dex of +2.

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