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Hello All!
So, my weekly AoA game is winding down. We are discussing our next AP, which will be SoT.
With the Free Archetype Dedication (wizard of course!), I have been researching the Alchemist. Seems like a good time to take it out for a run! I played 5 different Alchy's in PF1e, so I am (was) excited to finally try PF2e Alchemist!
Now, it would be a true disservice to say that I am not overly blown away by the class at first glance. So, I recall that PF2e is way different than PF1e so I endeavor to really open the Alchemist class up and really dig deep!
And dig. And dig. And dig.
Now, after reading (and even rereading) all the Threads on Alchemist, mentally building different routes, and even adding Witch Dedication (which hurt and helps); I am coming to the conclusion that it will be a bit subpar when comparing what it can do with other classes at the same levels.
I realize that DPS is not truly a measuring stick for any class really. But can we agree that this game is basically based on hp damage and how to get it to zero?
I get the rp, character relationships, and all the esoteric entices involved, but getting down to the base line of the game (and most every game) it comes down to combat.
We all relish the sound of our DMs calling for Initiative! The blood pounds with excitement as we begin scouring our sheets for the perfect opener! Just me? Ha!
Now don't get me wrong, Alchemist has some solid abilities that are certain to make friends at the table. Also, has a few not so friendly to friends. I can deal with that. What I am having a difficult time grasping is why is it so meekly weighed against other classes that may have similar capabilities?
It feels as if the Alchemist is weighed down by previously conceived notions from the former edition? It feels like the Alchemist of PF2e has been saddled with a tether, because of what its predecessor was capable of?
Why are Alchemical Items only at those levels? Because they correspond to Runes?
Why grant a +1/4 of Item's level to damage, if Item levels are 1, 3, 11, 17? That is just hurtful (looking at you Burn It!).
Do I actually have a question for you? Not too certain; most likely needed to just have your ear. Thank you!
I plan to still go with Alchemist for Sot. I just absolutely love a challenge!
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But can we agree that this game is basically based on hp damage and how to get it to zero?
I get the rp, character relationships, and all the esoteric entices involved, but getting down to the base line of the game (and most every game) it comes down to combat.
That. That right there is when Alchemist looks weak as a class.
If combat is the central point of the game for you and your table, Alchemist is always going to feel weaker than other options.
The strength of an Alchemist is being able to find solutions for any problem and challenge that they come across. If the only problem is enemies with HP that needs to be reduced to 0, then the only tool needed is a big enough hammer. Play a Fighter to swing that bigger hammer better.
When your game evolves to include other types of challenges - that is when you will actually want to play an Alchemist.
Now, there are ways to do a decent job at killing things. Especially things that have weaknesses to various damage types that you can target with appropriate bombs. Mutagens that can increase your attack and defense options. And you can be a dispensary to give those bonuses to other players. So the class isn't without merit in a combat-centric game either. But it isn't going to feel as powerful as a fully martial class or a fully spellcasting class.
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Cooperating with your party and making sure they have what they need before initiative is when alchemists shine. If someone has a free hand, make sure they're holding something. Takes some carful planning and a well thought out formula list but the class can perform it's job well enough in and out of combat.
Yes. Item dispensary Alchemist. It works well enough. A lot of people find it to be a completely unsatisfying way of playing though since they personally are not the ones dealing the damage.
Level 1 really looks like they're saying, "I sure hope you picked bomber".
Any subclass can use bombs and would benefit from those two feats. Yes two. Out of five available. There is also one targeted for Toxicologist. Though again, any Alchemist would benefit from them.
Bomber and Toxicologist are just the two that are most heavily geared for combat-centric game play.
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Cooperating with your party and making sure they have what they need before initiative is when alchemists shine. If someone has a free hand, make sure they're holding something. Takes some carful planning and a well thought out formula list but the class can perform it's job well enough in and out of combat.Yes. Item dispensary Alchemist. It works well enough. A lot of people find it to be a completely unsatisfying way of playing though since they personally are not the ones dealing the damage.
Many people are satisfied playing support characters.
However I feel those who will go to the Alchemist are those who played them in PF1 where the class was just the opposite : a self-buffer who needed to invest in a feat to support their teammates.
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IDK Chirurgueon isn't that bad if you aren't really interested in bombing.
At least insofar as anything alchemist adjacent can be not that bad. But if you're already that deep in the copium it's not a big leap to messing around with chirurgeons.
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I quite like the Alchemist, I play a Chirurgeon in PFS, but I'd not play one in an AP unless I'm sure there are not many dungeons in there. Alchemist's main drawback is the lack of resources to last long adventuring days. As long as there are 2-3 fights a day, there's no issue, but above that you stop using alchemical items which is neither efficient nor funny (I play an Alchemist to play with alchemical items).
As a side note, there's no issue to be a powerful bomber whatever Research Field you choose. We made comparisons with Exocist's bomber and my Chirurgeon was delivering the same amount of damage with just less flexibility. Research Fields are mild specializations, not big ones, the feats are what makes you a bomber, toxicologist, mutagenist or chirurgeon, and you can take far enough of them to have multiple specializations.
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You can have a non combat KAS or you can have lower proficiency. Having both hurts a bit too much for me. Inventor was a good example of the kind of direction I wanted for alchemist.
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You can have a non combat KAS or you can have lower proficiency. Having both hurts a bit too much for me. Inventor was a good example of the kind of direction I wanted for alchemist.
Lower proficiency is not much of a problem before level 13, there are only 2 levels out of 12 where your proficiency is lower than the one of martials. But it's true that by the time you reach level 13 you have to completely rethink your character if you were basing your contribution mainly on bombs. At that level, Bombs damage drop to the level of a secondary attack and as such you need to find what to do with your 2 other actions.
The other issue with bombs is the lack of property runes, which starts to be important at level 10 (when you can have 2 of them). It also greatly reduces your damage, and it gives martials an easy way to exploit weaknesses.The Alchemist is a difficult class to play. Depending on your level, you have to change the way you play your character. At level 3, every Alchemist is a Bomber, at level 16 every Alchemist is a Toxicologist, etc... Even if I have a rough idea of what are the good and what are the bad levels, it's really when playing my Alchemist that I realize it precisely.
Research Fields are mild specializations, not big ones, the feats are what makes you a bomber, toxicologist, mutagenist or chirurgeon, and you can take far enough of them to have multiple specializations.
I mostly agree. But I do think that Toxicologist has more impactful upgrades than the others do. If you aren't a Toxicologist, then you are limited to 1) only using the few on-level poisons available and hoping that their effects are useful, 2) using Quick Alchemy to get Powerful Alchemy - which is really hard on the action economy to poison a weapon and then attack with it in the same turn especially without the upgrade to make applying a poison only take one action, 3) using poisons that enemies will almost certainly save against because the item DC is too low.
I mostly agree. But I do think that Toxicologist has more impactful upgrades than the others do. If you aren't a Toxicologist, then you are limited to 1) only using the few on-level poisons available and hoping that their effects are useful, 2) using Quick Alchemy to get Powerful Alchemy - which is really hard on the action economy to poison a weapon and then attack with it in the same turn especially without the upgrade to make applying a poison only take one action, 3) using poisons that enemies will almost certainly save against because the item DC is too low.
The 1) is actually quite satisfying. 90% of the time, the best poison is the latest one or at least the latest one is among the best ones. I've found only one level where the latest poison is significantly worse than another one (level 6).
Also, you need to grab Potent Poisoner at level 10 (in my opinion another tax feat as you really need to poison your allies' weapons at high level). With the feat, you get the same DCs than a Toxicologist at every level but 9.
I mostly agree. But I do think that Toxicologist has more impactful upgrades than the others do. If you aren't a Toxicologist, then you are limited to 1) only using the few on-level poisons available and hoping that their effects are useful, 2) using Quick Alchemy to get Powerful Alchemy - which is really hard on the action economy to poison a weapon and then attack with it in the same turn especially without the upgrade to make applying a poison only take one action, 3) using poisons that enemies will almost certainly save against because the item DC is too low.The 1) is actually quite satisfying. 90% of the time, the best poison is the latest one or at least the latest one is among the best ones. I've found only one level where the latest poison is significantly worse than another one (level 6).
Also, you need to grab Potent Poisoner at level 10 (in my opinion another tax feat as you really need to poison your allies' weapons at high level). With the feat, you get the same DCs than a Toxicologist at every level but 9.
For doing damage? Or applying conditions?
For example, clumsy. Maybe I haven't looked hard enough, but I am not seeing any combat poisons that apply clumsy after Giant Wasp Venom at item level 7. So even adding 4 to the DC won't keep it relevant past level 12 or so.
For doing damage? Or applying conditions?
For example, clumsy. Maybe I haven't looked hard enough, but I am not seeing any combat poisons that apply clumsy after Giant Wasp Venom at item level 7. So even adding 4 to the DC won't keep it relevant past level 12 or so.
One level after Giant Wasp Venom, you have Wyvern Poison which is absolutely awesome.
Obviously, you don't have the Toxicologist's benefits without being a Toxicologist, but you can use poison in an impactful and satisfying way without being a Toxicologist the same way you can satisfyingly use Bombs without being a Bomber, Elixirs of Life without being a Chirurgeon and so on.
A toxicologist raises the DC of any poison they make with reagents up to their class DC. Potent poisoner only helps with regularly crafted poisons.
"When you craft an alchemical item with the poison trait by any means". The "by any means" indicate that we don't speak of regularly crafted poisons but of every poison you create. Look at the way Advanced Alchemy and Quick Alchemy are written, they are following the crafting rules.
Right, that's how potent poisoner works. I'm saying it's redundant with toxicologist unless you plan to do a lot of downtime crafting, since toxicologists can already replace the DC with infused poisons with their class DC.A toxicologist raises the DC of any poison they make with reagents up to their class DC. Potent poisoner only helps with regularly crafted poisons."When you craft an alchemical item with the poison trait by any means". The "by any means" indicate that we don't speak of regularly crafted poisons but of every poison you create. Look at the way Advanced Alchemy and Quick Alchemy are written, they are following the crafting rules.
Yes, of course. I was speaking of Potent Poisoner if you are not a Toxicologist. If you are one, you don't need to take it.
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You people are making me want to play an Alchemist in PFS.
Superbidi, you really should write a quick guide to the Alchemist ;-)
I may, one day. But my vision of the Alchemist is not common, so I want to back it up with enough experience to be sure of what I say. So I wait for my PFS Alchemist to reach level 8-9 at least.
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One level after Giant Wasp Venom, you have Wyvern Poison which is absolutely awesome.For doing damage? Or applying conditions?
For example, clumsy. Maybe I haven't looked hard enough, but I am not seeing any combat poisons that apply clumsy after Giant Wasp Venom at item level 7. So even adding 4 to the DC won't keep it relevant past level 12 or so.
Wyvern Poison doesn't cause the Clumsy condition. All it does is better damage.
So if the point is to do damage, yeah using the higher level poisons works fine. But sometimes there is a particular condition that you want to be able to use from a poison. And for that you need to have the scaling DC on the items.
Obviously, you don't have the Toxicologist's benefits without being a Toxicologist, but you can use poison in an impactful and satisfying way without being a Toxicologist the same way you can satisfyingly use Bombs without being a Bomber, Elixirs of Life without being a Chirurgeon and so on.
Like I said earlier, I mostly agree with this. But I do think that Toxicologist gets a bit of an edge for poisons over the other Research Fields get for their item types that can't be picked up any other way.
Bomber gets the ability to avoid dealing any splash damage. The point being to avoid hitting your allies I guess. Directional Bombs can be used similarly.
Chirurgeon just gets the ability to ignore getting training in Medicine. That's actually pretty lackluster.
Mutagenic Flashback saves on use of mutagens, which is not terrible. But only once per day. So the value ends up being one extra reagent. And maybe some action cost. This is probably my second place choice for power level ranking.
Obviously, you don't have the Toxicologist's benefits without being a Toxicologist, but you can use poison in an impactful and satisfying way without being a Toxicologist the same way you can satisfyingly use Bombs without being a Bomber, Elixirs of Life without being a Chirurgeon and so on.Like I said earlier, I mostly agree with this. But I do think that Toxicologist gets a bit of an edge for poisons over the other Research Fields get for their item types that can't be picked up any other way.
Sorry, I thought you were disagreeing more.
Bomber gets the ability to avoid dealing any splash damage. The point being to avoid hitting your allies I guess. Directional Bombs can be used similarly.
You also have Backfire Mantles that protect your allies against splash.
Chirurgeon just gets the ability to ignore getting training in Medicine. That's actually pretty lackluster.
You need to be Trained in Medicine to get the bonus. But you get a very high bonus if, like I do with my Alchemist, you increase Crafting as soon as you can.
Also, in my opinion, the good bonuses are the level 13 ones. Before that, the differences are not that important.
I'm pretty sure you can't combine the effects of mutagens. They have the polymorph trait.
So activating drakeheart mutagen would remove the temp hp of juggernaut mutagen - or would fail to counteract and so would have no effect itself.
Same with flashback of one juggernaut mutagen while still having the temp hp of a different one. Though mutagenic flashback itself doesn't have the polymorph trait and only says that you get the effects of the mutagen. I still think it is not intended to be under the effects of two mutagens at once. That is the entire purpose of the polymorph trait rules.
Obviously, you don't have the Toxicologist's benefits without being a Toxicologist, but you can use poison in an impactful and satisfying way without being a Toxicologist the same way you can satisfyingly use Bombs without being a Bomber, Elixirs of Life without being a Chirurgeon and so on.Like I said earlier, I mostly agree with this. But I do think that Toxicologist gets a bit of an edge for poisons over the other Research Fields get for their item types that can't be picked up any other way.Sorry, I thought you were disagreeing more.
Also, in my opinion, the good bonuses are the level 13 ones. Before that, the differences are not that important.
Yeah, sorry if I wasn't clear enough on that.
And yes, the level 13 Research Field bonuses are a bit more distinct and non-reproducible.
I like the Mutagenist one the best - but it does seem to be a two-edged sword. I don't know of any other way that you can end up with just the drawbacks of a mutagen still affecting you. This looks like an editing miss from a change made during the playtest - where mutagens had drawbacks that lasted longer than their positive effects did.
I like the Mutagenist one the best - but it does seem to be a two-edged sword. I don't know of any other way that you can end up with just the drawbacks of a mutagen still affecting you. This looks like an editing miss from a change made during the playtest - where mutagens had drawbacks that lasted longer than their positive effects did.
The drawback is pretty annoying if you don't have Revivifying Mutagen.
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Just popping in to echo what others have said.
Alchemist is not the most powerful class. It's fun anyway.
I love my alchemist in PFS, where there's a higher noncombat-to-combat encounter ratio and the party changes every session. I have qualms about bringing an alchemist to a combat-heavy AP with a fixed group.
I've had a lot of trouble getting people to accept having their weapons poisoned.
I've had a lot of trouble getting people to accept having their weapons poisoned.
Curious on why? Moral qualms? Or do people just not want free bonuses to their weapon attack results?
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I quite like the Alchemist, I play a Chirurgeon in PFS, but I'd not play one in an AP unless I'm sure there are not many dungeons in there. Alchemist's main drawback is the lack of resources to last long adventuring days. As long as there are 2-3 fights a day, there's no issue, but above that you stop using alchemical items which is neither efficient nor funny (I play an Alchemist to play with alchemical items).
For me this is enough to make the class a fail. Where is my cantrip equivalent?
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For me this is enough to make the class a fail. Where is my cantrip equivalent?I quite like the Alchemist, I play a Chirurgeon in PFS, but I'd not play one in an AP unless I'm sure there are not many dungeons in there. Alchemist's main drawback is the lack of resources to last long adventuring days. As long as there are 2-3 fights a day, there's no issue, but above that you stop using alchemical items which is neither efficient nor funny (I play an Alchemist to play with alchemical items).
The class has many issues, anyway. I don't know if "a fail" is the proper word, but "clunky" is at least a good way to describe it.
I play a Chirurgeon in PFS
So why did you like the Chirurgen? Yes their abilites are nice, but healing is cheap so why make the focus of your character something that can be covered adequately with a few skills? I'm just not seeing the value proposition.
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Where is my cantrip equivalent?
Yeah, the closest is the Perpetual Infusions at level 7. But that is quite a while to wait. And before that Alchemist is probably the only class that can actually completely run out of their ability to power their class's main tactic. Fighters can always swing something. Barbarians can Rage again after 1 minute. Spellcasters have cantrips and sometimes focus spells.
It is something to be aware of - and it does make the class a bit trickier to play. I don't think it is a complete deal breaker though.
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I play a Chirurgeon in PFSSo why did you like the Chirurgen? Yes their abilites are nice, but healing is cheap so why make the focus of your character something that can be covered adequately with a few skills? I'm just not seeing the value proposition.
I haven't chosen the Chirurgeon for healing. As I said above, Research Fields are mild specializations for me. So I'm a bomber/poisoner/healer/beastmaster.
My choice of Chirurgeon comes from the first level ability (in PFS, you have a lot of skill challenges, so it's impactful to have an extra maxed out skill) and the Perpetuals (I find them the best, I hardly see a use for the other ones). But I have hesitated a lot with the Toxicologist.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I am finding this conversation fascinating. I appreciate the responses!
Everyone keep on chiming in, please. This has really been helpful.
I am planning to go Bomber as of now; although Toxicologist is really speaking to me too.
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A general tip for Alchemists:
Your power comes from the sheer instant and on-demand flexibility that you have by the mere fact that Alchemical Items functions are so incredibly varied, and generally speaking, they have SOMETHING that can benefit almost every situation you can throw at them, they simply need to have the formula and ... that's super DUPER easy to actually make sure is possible. Unlike other classes that CAN expand their repertoire/spellbook/toolkit the Alchemist can spend what really amounts to a paltry sum that doesn't even come CLOSE to the gold cost of keeping a martial character main weapon up to snuff with +X and Striking Runes on simple Formulas for ... well, literally all Alchemical Items of their Character Level or lower.
Seriously, an on the spot function to deal just about EVERY form of damage is incredibly useful when you're facing an opponent or situation that demands Fire/Cold/Electricity/Mental/Poison/Positive/Negative/Sonic/Slashing/Acid damage, esp when the rest of the party isn't already equipped/prepared to do so. You can create ground hazards, a cloud of smoke, poison, conjure up a quick alcoholic drink, antidotes, buff elixirs to suit nearly any skill check or situation, grant darkvision, make healing items, make yourself undetectable via scent, grant imprecise scent, get all manner of elemental resistances, a swim speed, make a weapon or ammo count as silver, create matches and torches, have ultra-superglue or solvent, or grant a higher base movement speed... any of these things all for the mere cost of 1 Reagent and an Action to whip it up.
All this as you level up costing LESS than what your Fighter would spend just to have their Gnomish Flickmace keep pace with the expected AC and math of at/above level enemies. Your power comes from the fact that you are an affordably expandable multitool that can be used for literally dozens to hundreds of different scenarios versus the single-use Sledgehammer that the Fighter has. The best part about it, the cherry on top, is that, unlike a spellcaster you do not need to spend ANY downtime to add this functionality to your Alchemist, you just slip the new Formula that you bought on the open market into your book and you're done, no need to fuss with checks, investing hours to weeks at a time into rewriting it into a spellbook, none of that, just slip it between the many other coffee stained Formulas you have in the giant folio you travel with and you're done.
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I play a Chirurgeon in PFSSo why did you like the Chirurgen? Yes their abilites are nice, but healing is cheap so why make the focus of your character something that can be covered adequately with a few skills? I'm just not seeing the value proposition.I haven't chosen the Chirurgeon for healing. As I said above, Research Fields are mild specializations for me. So I'm a bomber/poisoner/healer/beastmaster.
My choice of Chirurgeon comes from the first level ability (in PFS, you have a lot of skill challenges, so it's impactful to have an extra maxed out skill) and the Perpetuals (I find them the best, I hardly see a use for the other ones). But I have hesitated a lot with the Toxicologist.
You still need the feats Battle Medicine (in combat) and Continual Recovery (out of combat) to be an effective healer. Continual Recovery requires Expert in Medicine. So I'm not sure you have saved much. Yes your INT is going to be higher and you don't have to progress further in Medicine.