Interpreting Monster Ability DCs

[Yolande d'Bar]

I still play PF1, but I enjoy lots of the new abilities given to classic monsters in PF2 and have been porting them back to my current game.

However, I don't think I understand where the DC numbers are coming from in PF2.

Example: the 2e owlbear's bloodcurdling scream has a DC20 Will save.

Is there a formula that determined that number? or is from a table? or was it simply chosen by the designer?

How am I to interpret that number? It seems like a hard save for 4th lvl characters to make (it would be in PF1), but I'm unsure what the PF2 standards for difficulty are.

I'm trying to get an idea of how to understand PF2 DC numbers and adjust them when I port them back to PF1.

thanks!

[Jared Walter 356]

In this case, it is likely based on their intimidation skill. Generally the DCs are exactly 10 above a relevant stat or skill.

DC20 is not extremely difficult at level 4. Every level 4 character will have at least a +6 (+4 for level +2 for trained) not counting wisdom or casters being expert (+4 instead of +2). Even the worst would succeed on 14 or higher, and a good cleric might need as low as an 8.

DCs don't have exact formulas as much as they did in pf1. Typically set it at 10 higher than the relevant skill or use this chart:
https://pf2srd.com/gamemastering/difficulty-classes/#level-based-dcs

[Aw3som3-117]

In pf2 the DCs for various abilities don't have to be tied to skills, ability scores, etc., but are rather picked more-so for balance reasons. If you want to get an idea of how difficult of a DC it is for a given level given pf2's proficiency system you can check out the Building Creatures section and ctrl f for a table with DCs for abilities (which oddly enough is only really in the spellcasting section) and see that a DC of 20 on a lvl 4 creature is between "high" [21] and "Moderate" [18] so if you're trying to port it over maybe have it be slightly on the higher end of those types of abilities (whatever that might be in pf1 at that level), but not by a lot

[Mathmuse]

The owlbear is a 4th-level creature, so for the DC of its Bloodcurdling Screech ability, I would open the Building Creatures section of the Gamemastery Guide and look at Table 2–11: Spell DC and Spell Attack Bonus and check the row for 4th-level creatures.

The high DC is 21. That one is for an ability that the creature relies upon regularly. The moderate DC is 18. That would be the appropriate value for a supplemental ability like Bloodcurdling Screech. However, since the owlbear's screech emphasizes its owl side, the Paizo developers decided on a higher DC 20 and added a one-minute cooldown to keep it from being overpowered.

The PF2 Core Rulebook also provides a quick table of level-based DCs, which has one value rather than low/moderate/high/extreme values. But for creatures, I usually use the low/moderate/high/extreme tables.

The values in the tables came from a lot of comparison and playtesting between different characters and creatures. The characters have a general formula for their Will saves, level + proficiency rank bonus + ability score bonus, with an occasional improvement in proficiency or ability score based on class and level, so they are mostly predictable.

Now to return to my task of converting the PF1 Rift Drake to PF2, using the PF2 Desert Drake as a model. I am converting Siege of Stone, 4th module in Ironfang Invasion, to PF2 rules.

[Yolande d'Bar]

Thanks, all three of you, that clears up a lot, and I appreciate the links.