Caster level vs class level

[Flyingmojo]

Hi all
I'm pretty sure my GM has things wrong. I'm a new Pathfinder player, starting play as a 6th level wizard. He recommended that I take Magical Knack as a trait, which would give me a +2 bonus to my caster level (boosting range, duration, damage etc to various spells). In the rule book it says this bonus applies "as long as this bonus doesn’t raise your caster level above your current Hit Dice."

This confused me, as it would seem to indicate that I would get no benefit from this trait, as it would always raise my caster level above my hit dice. Looking up caster level in the book, it says "A spell’s power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to her class level in the class she’s using to cast the spell." All I can figure is that this trait only benefits multiclassing characters (e.g. wizard 1/fighter 3) and other classes like the Paladin (which doesn't get a caster level until the 3rd level).

When I brought this up, however, he told me that my caster level is the highest level of spell that I can cast, which is shown in the chart for wizards. So as a 6th level wizard, I normally can only cast up to 3rd level spells. But because of my high intelligence, I can cast up to 4th level spells. Which would I guess make my caster level 4, and with Magical Knack, it becomes 6.

I may be a new player, but I'm pretty sure he's wrong. I'm not going to push it though, since he's the GM, and I'm a new player. I figure just let it be a house rule, even though he doesn't know that it's actually a "house rule," lol

Edit: After asking about the bonus spell from my high intelligence, he's now saying that the bonus spell doesn't raise my caster level, and without Magical Knack I wouldn't be able to cast 4th level spells. But with magical knack, I can. And my caster level is raised to 5....
SO confused!

[Wonderstell]

Hm. Yeah your GM is aggressively wrong about how spellcasting works.

As a Wizard your caster level is equal to your wizard level. You've already found the correct rules quote for that. Any exceptions are spelled out in the class description.

As a 6th level Wizard you can cast up to 3rd level spells. You do not get any bonus spell slots from high intelligence in spell levels you have not unlocked yet. (FAQ)

[Flyingmojo]

Yeah, that's what I thought. Thank you. And thanks for the clarification about the bonus spell

[Senko]

Wonderstell wrote:

Hm. Yeah your GM is aggressively wrong about how spellcasting works.

As a Wizard your caster level is equal to your wizard level. You've already found the correct rules quote for that. Any exceptions are spelled out in the class description.

As a 6th level Wizard you can cast up to 3rd level spells. You do not get any bonus spell slots from high intelligence in spell levels you have not unlocked yet. (FAQ)

It would be nice if you did though.

Magical knack is not much use in pathfinder in my opinion since it only really comes into play if your multiclassing and pathfinder has a lot more support/encouragement for you to stay a single class compared to 3.5. You would use it if you were saying going wizard/rogue/arcan trickster or fighter/wizard/eldritch knight where it can help offset the non-caster levels. However as I said with the way pathfinder went prestige classes and multi-classing is generally less appealing and I'd especially advise against it for a new player.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Magical Knack can be useful for Paladins and Rangers. Their caster level is three behind their character level even if they are singled classed.

Dipping for a level or two is not that bad, but anything more than that really weakens the character. You can actually make a pretty decent arcane trickster type character without actually taking the prestige class. Take a level or two in unchained rogue and go Wizard after that. A single level of unchained rouge will give you the class skills of a rogue and weapon finesse and trap finding. Wizards get plenty of skill points due to their high INT so that allows you to get some decent skills. Your spell progression will be slightly behind that of other wizards, but about equal to a sorcerer. You won’t have the BAB of a rouge, but who cares because in combat you are a wizard, not a rouge. Out of combat is where you function as a rouge.

[Senko]

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Magical Knack can be useful for Paladins and Rangers. Their caster level is three behind their character level even if they are singled classed.

Dipping for a level or two is not that bad, but anything more than that really weakens the character. You can actually make a pretty decent arcane trickster type character without actually taking the prestige class. Take a level or two in unchained rogue and go Wizard after that. A single level of unchained rouge will give you the class skills of a rogue and weapon finesse and trap finding. Wizards get plenty of skill points due to their high INT so that allows you to get some decent skills. Your spell progression will be slightly behind that of other wizards, but about equal to a sorcerer. You won’t have the BAB of a rouge, but who cares because in combat you are a wizard, not a rouge. Out of combat is where you function as a rouge.

Really I knew they didn't get spells till higher levels but I don't normally play them so I thought their caster level was still equal to their paladin/ranger class level.

[Chell Raighn]

Senko wrote:

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Magical Knack can be useful for Paladins and Rangers. Their caster level is three behind their character level even if they are singled classed.

Dipping for a level or two is not that bad, but anything more than that really weakens the character. You can actually make a pretty decent arcane trickster type character without actually taking the prestige class. Take a level or two in unchained rogue and go Wizard after that. A single level of unchained rouge will give you the class skills of a rogue and weapon finesse and trap finding. Wizards get plenty of skill points due to their high INT so that allows you to get some decent skills. Your spell progression will be slightly behind that of other wizards, but about equal to a sorcerer. You won’t have the BAB of a rouge, but who cares because in combat you are a wizard, not a rouge. Out of combat is where you function as a rouge.

Really I knew they didn't get spells till higher levels but I don't normally play them so I thought their caster level was still equal to their paladin/ranger class level.

It is stated near the end of their spells ability.

Paladin wrote:

Through 3rd level, a paladin has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, her caster level is equal to her paladin level – 3.

Ranger wrote:

Through 3rd level, a ranger has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, his caster level is equal to his ranger level – 3.

They are the only ones who have a reduced CL… the other 4th level casters get full CL… Medium because they actually get Cantrips and Bloodrager because of their Bloodline… heck even the Child of Acavna and Amaznen Fighter gets full CL

[Snake01]

Idk if anyone else still reads this post but, I have the same problem in my group with the caster level, that my DM says my effective caster level as Magus is not my caster level.
They tell me that my caster level is only as high as the highest level of spells I can cast means at Lvl 4 I am caster Lvl 2 in their world. I tried to show them this thread and tell them they are probably not right, but they still rule it that way can anybody tell me what I could do or should i probably just take it as the dm tells me even if it means I am a pretty weak Magus.

[Tottemas]

You should start a thread in the Advice or General Discussion forum about a troublesome GM not reading the rules and winging it. Your GM isn't "probably not right". They are 100% wrong and spending 5 minutes reading the appropriate section of the magic chapter proves them wrong.

This reeks of "5e GM that thought the systems would be identical and never bothered to read the rules".

I'd just straight up tell them that they don't know enough about pathfinder to houserule such a crucial part of the spellcasting system. But you probably want advice from someone more diplomatic.

[Grand_Mage]

hello, i just got my account up and running, just like you. i didn't get a wizzard though, i got a druid. (though i made an kolbold orical as well not long ago).

[Dasrak]

Snake01 wrote:

Idk if anyone else still reads this post but, I have the same problem in my group with the caster level, that my DM says my effective caster level as Magus is not my caster level.

They tell me that my caster level is only as high as the highest level of spells I can cast means at Lvl 4 I am caster Lvl 2 in their world. I tried to show them this thread and tell them they are probably not right, but they still rule it that way can anybody tell me what I could do or should i probably just take it as the dm tells me even if it means I am a pretty weak Magus.

You're DM is wrong. Your caster level is equal to your character level in the given class (unless you have bonuses or penalties).

Possible counterpoints you can make:

1. Show them the relevant rules from the core rulebook:
https://www.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?Name=Caster%20Level&Category=Casting% 20Spells
"A spell’s power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to her class level in the class she’s using to cast the spell."

This is clear and uncontroversial. If you have the physical core rulebook, you can find this on page 208

2. Show them official statblocks of NPC's, such as this Wizard which clearly shows an 11th level Wizard with caster level 11

3. Show them the rules for scrolls
https://www.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?Name=Scrolls&Category=Magic%20Items
"The price of a scroll is equal to the level of the spell × the creator’s caster level × 25 gp.
...
Table 15–15 gives sample prices for scrolls created at the lowest possible caster level for each spellcasting class. "

If you're DM continues arguing with you, you've just been given a green light to craft extremely inexpensive scrolls.

And yeah, your GM ruling is especially crippling for a Magus. A Wizard could probably still make it work by selecting spells that are not overly dependent on caster level, but direct damage-dealing spells are pretty much useless given that they won't scale appropriately.

[Azothath]

Snake01 wrote:

Idk if anyone else still reads this post but, I have the same problem in my group with the caster level, that my DM says my effective caster level as Magus is not my caster level.

They tell me that my caster level is only as high as the highest level of spells I can cast means at Lvl 4 I am caster Lvl 2 in their world. I tried to show them this thread and tell them they are probably not right, but they still rule it that way can anybody tell me what I could do or should i probably just take it as the dm tells me even if it means I am a pretty weak Magus.

okay - that is just wrong. They are confusing 'Spell Level' with 'Caster Level'.

>>> Direct them to read up on basic terms <<<

a Magus 9 or 9th level Magus has a caster level of 9 and by the class table has Spells Per Day of spell levels Zeroth:5, First:5, Second:4, Third:3, Fourth:-, Fifth:-, Sixth:-.

If your GM & Group needs experience with PF1 then get and run the Organized Play (PFS) Introductory Scenarios and/or Quests. There several of both.

[DAOFS]

If that's not enough, tell them to look at some context clues. Let's look at fireball for an example.

A fireball spell generates a searing explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6)

With this misinterpretation, this means that the maximum damage on fireball would be literally impossible to attain, and considering it's one of (if not the) most iconic spells in the entire game, it's rather unlikely a misprint such as this would've survived past the cessation of content for the game.

[Snake01]

DAOFS wrote:

If that's not enough, tell them to look at some context clues. Let's look at fireball for an example.

A fireball spell generates a searing explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6)

With this misinterpretation, this means that the maximum damage on fireball would be literally impossible to attain, and considering it's one of (if not the) most iconic spells in the entire game, it's rather unlikely a misprint such as this would've survived past the cessation of content for the game.

Yeah I used scorching ray as an example because it says "(to a maximum of three rays at 11th level)" but the DM just told me, "yeah after lvl 20 the caster lvl still rises as if you would get higher spell slots then 9.

It just makes no logical sense to me.

[Melkiador]

I guess that's an easy way to nerf casters though.

[Tottemas]

@Snake01

"It just makes no logical sense to me."

It makes no logical sense because your GM isn't making any logical sense. You could show them the Ranger or Paladin class description of their Spell class feature where it explicitly says that the Caster Level is equal to their Character Level -3. Which means a level 10 Ranger has a Caster Level of 7. Not 3 as they would say.

===

@Melkiador

True that. But do you really think this is the only rule they're wrong on?

'No you don't get more attacks as you level. Oh the number behind your BAB at lv 6? Yeah that just means you can choose to make your attack at BAB +1 or BAB +6. Like if you want to deal less damage with power attack'

[Derklord]

Tottemas wrote:

True that. But do you really think this is the only rule they're wrong on?

'No you don't get more attacks as you level. Oh the number behind your BAB at lv 6? Yeah that just means you can choose to make your attack at BAB +1 or BAB +6. Like if you want to deal less damage with power attack'

This is actually closer to the truth than you may think. It is the case that nothing says the numbers after the slashes in the BAB entries are for iterative attacks. Which is actually problematic because because iterative attacks from BAB are in the rules... but the penalty isn't. At all!

Snake01 wrote:

It just makes no logical sense to me.

Your GM is either an idiot, or a cowardly jerk.

What does your GM say the line "which for most spellcasting characters is equal to her class level in the class she’s using to cast the spell" means, if not what it says?

[TxSam88]

honestly, your GM is a moron. You need to find a new group to play with.