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To be clear, OP is suggesting shutting the forums down entirely, they frame making that temporary as an 'at least' the minimum of what should be done. Its a Motte and Bailey argument with 'removing the forums temporarily to regroup' as the motte, and 'remove the forums permanently' as the bailey.
It's also got the usual dog whistles 'It may be the wider influences of our western culture - be it political, social, economic or a myriad of other things changing our landscape today, whatever it is, its infected these forums, and not in a positive way' indeed, I wonder what things that the OP sees as being specific to 'western culture today' that have 'infected' the forums.
You can't help but notice that OP avoids discussing which kinds of things disagreeing about has led to them or people they're sympathetic to being othered over, its kept entirely abstract, that's usually done to feign a centrist position. Which is typical of the civility argument used to preach tolerance for injustice.
While I seem to be with the majority opinion here, when it was said;
"Paizo has always been praised for its investments in its community above all else." How do we tell that to Sara and Diego?
Paizo, it seems, has been selective and hypocritical, in the investments in the community. Transphobia, late acknowledgement of Hispanic Heritage mohth, elevating white people to leadership positions while telling Hispanic workers that they don't need a promotion.
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Wow.
I return from work and in less than 50 posts, I got folks insinuating I’m a bigot or supporter of such, a dog-whistler, a purveyor of argumentative fallacies, having a false centrist position, having ulterior motives, suggesting I just leave the forums, etc.
By doing that, you automatically ascribed NEGATIVE aspects about ME without actually knowing who I am, where I come from, what’s my background or anything about me. You simply painted me as an OTHER when all I did was present my opinion as many other posters do.
I gave that personal anecdote in my original post and several of you folks here outright confirm it with veiled (or outright) inaccurate assumptions. I say it again the Community is fractured, combative and defensive all at the same time, we need time to heal.
Just take what I said in my OP as my position. You don’t have to like it or agree with it, but there is no need to attack the person. There is no hidden agenda.
Attack the position, Not the person.
Like Hillary says in her post “We can disagree without being disagreeable”.
And to the folks here who either disagreed and moved on or disagreed and gave their views why they disagreed with my position. I thank you for providing points and counter-points as these add a different perspective to things.
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Shivok, that's how things work here apparently. I'm not one of the consensus btw.
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Nah. Just need to not fire the person who was the resident expert in moderating and putting out fires allegedly for no reason other than Ambition if you believe what Diego says. And I do.
I don't know why Sara Marie was fired. I think we all agree that it was a terrible decision that impacted this site and Paizo's whole business heavily. I know that I miss both Sara Marie and Diego. Paizo's community would be better with both of them still here.
But it is also my belief that the last thing in the world Tonya would have wanted is Sara's job. Tonya already was a director. Why would a director want a manager's job? Especially one as thankless as the head of Customer Service? One thing I know about Tonya from years of interacting with her in the OPF is that she is not a stupid person. So this is the part of the story that makes no sense whatsoever to me. I admit, I'm baffled.
Like everyone else, I want a nice, neat story and I want to be able to point fingers and shout, 'J'accuse!' But I don't know if we'll ever know why this happened.
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Diego has said that management expected him to just take over for Sara, but he quit on the spot, forcing Tonya to take both jobs. He's also been very critical of Tonya's behavior toward Sara. His recent posts are kind of worth keeping an eye on if you want more context.
I have nothing but respect for you, Hmm, but I am much less sure of Tonya's good faith than I was when I started the "On the state of moderation" thread.
So if someone collaborated to steal the CS manager's job and then fire them for no reason, well then that someone is going to have to do that job. Forum moderation over the weekend is the bed that someone made for themselves
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I will look into Diego's posts and Twitter. I admit that the firestorm of the past few months made me practically abandon Twitter. I've been barely on Facebook, too. I just realized... I never announced my first AP volume, "Horizons of the Vast: Serpents in the Cradle" on Twitter because I was so demoralized when Sara Marie got fired, and then with the ensuing firestorm. I could not sleep properly for days, and I felt gut-punched.
Hmm
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Wow.
I return from work and in less than 50 posts, I got folks insinuating I’m a bigot or supporter of such, a dog-whistler, a purveyor of argumentative fallacies, having a false centrist position, having ulterior motives, suggesting I just leave the forums, etc.
By doing that, you automatically ascribed NEGATIVE aspects about ME without actually knowing who I am, where I come from, what’s my background or anything about me. You simply painted me as an OTHER when all I did was present my opinion as many other posters do.
I gave that personal anecdote in my original post and several of you folks here outright confirm it with veiled (or outright) inaccurate assumptions. I say it again the Community is fractured, combative and defensive all at the same time, we need time to heal.
Just take what I said in my OP as my position. You don’t have to like it or agree with it, but there is no need to attack the person. There is no hidden agenda.
Attack the position, Not the person.
Like Hillary says in her post “We can disagree without being disagreeable”.
And to the folks here who either disagreed and moved on or disagreed and gave their views why they disagreed with my position. I thank you for providing points and counter-points as these add a different perspective to things.
Still no substance about what you do mean, in spite of all the chest beating and gnashing of teeth about how dare we think you have anything but the very best of intentions.
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I actually misspoke--Sara Marie's been very active on Twitter lately, but Diego has more been on the forums.
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To clarify, Tonya lobbied for and was given the Director of Customer Service and Community position. This was in effect a demotion for Sara. A few weeks later Sara was fired by Tonya. I quit when she was fired.
To clarify, Tonya lobbied for and was given the Director of Customer Service and Community position. This was in effect a demotion for Sara. A few weeks later Sara was fired by Tonya. I quit when she was fired.
...well whoop me with a Lincoln Log...thank you for that informative bit Diego.
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To clarify, Tonya lobbied for and was given the Director of Customer Service and Community position. This was in effect a demotion for Sara. A few weeks later Sara was fired by Tonya. I quit when she was fired.
Interesting.
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To clarify, Tonya lobbied for and was given the Director of Customer Service and Community position. This was in effect a demotion for Sara. A few weeks later Sara was fired by Tonya. I quit when she was fired.
That's actually pretty damn crappy. Cheers for standing up despite the consequences of losing work. Hope you both land safely somewhere more employee friendly.
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To clarify, Tonya lobbied for and was given the Director of Customer Service and Community position. This was in effect a demotion for Sara. A few weeks later Sara was fired by Tonya. I quit when she was fired.
That's...pretty damning. It's one thing to be put into a situation where you have to do the firing, but entirely another to lobby to in that position and then do the firing. That's...wow.
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This is not, to my knowledge, new information. It was discussed in the initial thread months ago but I think got lost in the shuffle of...everything else that has come up.
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So in the spirit of this thread and keeping with the OP...
Maybe we should petition Paizo to NOT shut down the forums, but instead petition for a new moderation team and a new Director of Community without any past experiences with former employees/subordinates.
This might have prevented some of this to begin with, and also would be cool to have more impartiality as to what's considered a debate with difference of opinions, as opposed to the current state of moderation.
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I would like a mod team that actually bans transphobic bad actors.
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The current mod team is great, and I have nothing bad to say about them. They are doing their best, and I think they're doing amazing considering the resources management gives them. That said, they need to actually be paid fairly, offered training if they require it, and led by someone qualified to run a community. Sara was, as previously mentioned, irreplaceable, which I'm sure complicates management's determination to not grovel for her and Diego to come back like they should.
Of course, if the current mods would rather Paizo hire actual moderators so they could focus on Customer Service, that would be very fair. :P
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As someone who has dealt with self-harm in my own life, that of loved ones and friends. Can you PLEASE delete your message?
I mean its the truth. Its kind of amazing in a way but this community in a way has a profound impact for people in a way that I never in a million years would have thought of. Seriously, go read Linda Zayas Palmer's account of how much of a profound impact members of the community her friends had on her life. And she is not the only person to benefit from the community.
And you want to get rid of it because "moderation is hard". No kidding sherlock. I'm going to let you in on a little secret. This isn't new. None of this is new. You only are noticing it because transgender people and minorities are sick and tired of being treated like monsters and you can't deal with it.
EDIT
Also, Robert Moses?????? The New York Politician????
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There needs to be a new Director of Community.
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No, no, MadScientist, Moses was above politics!
;)
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By doing that, you automatically ascribed NEGATIVE aspects about ME without actually knowing who I am, where I come from, what’s my background or anything about me. You simply painted me as an OTHER when all I did was present my opinion as many other posters do.
I feel this Shivok. I’ve been there myself.
Keep in mind a lot of folks here are very hurt by the allegations against Paizo, and these forums have been their place to speak out. Suggesting the environment is toxic (even if it is), or that these forums should be shut down (even if only temporarily), will be viewed as asking them to be silenced. That just isn’t going to go well.
So don’t take it personally. People say things when they are hurt that they may not say otherwise. Let the moderators handle the personal attacks, and feel free to stay on topic and a part of the conversation.
No, no, MadScientist, Moses was above politics!
;)
Im so confused right now. Not in an actively malicious way but in a Dan Ryckert sort of way.
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I think this would be a really good time to step away from the keyboard and have a hot or cold beverage.
I would ask that everyone stop and chill for a minute before continuing.
EDIT: Speak your mind, just give it an extra minute before pressing post...
Robert Moses basically designed New York City, New York State, and modern infrastructure for several decades in the mid 1900's. Everyone answered to him. Tons of shady corruption, blackmail, media manipulation, etc. He pretended to be all capitalistic and thrifty, while really channeling government money into his own fiefdom.
I highly recommend:
The Power Broker it is a detailed account of one of the most influential people in modern times.
Also, check out Jane Jacobs, who did what presidents and governors could not- beat Robert Moses.
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Moses was infamous for demolishing communities to build parks and the sort, basically. It was an obscure history joke. :P
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The fact that you have managed to hurt me enough for me to be blunt in my criticisms is neither an indictment of my criticisms nor of the forums as a whole. It reflects on you and it reflects on me. That's all.
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With the exception of very small subs and Discord channels (I've had a lot of fun on the FFd20 Discord and the Hajime no Ippo subreddit, for example), they do not foster a sense of community whatsoever.
That's...kind of important when it comes to a social game.
As well, Paizo "taking lessons from the industry leader" would be a laughably bad move for them, for one simple fact: they are not the industry leader. They do not have those fat Hasbro stacks backing them that makes shameless corporate moves work.
Because they're not a major corporation, as much as their responses the past few months have made it apparent they wish they were.
Paizo is a couple of steps away from being White Wolf.
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"Anything else isn’t needed and such forums as this are a net-negative."
A community is a net-negative? Do you have any receipts to back up this all encompassing claim? And no, you allegedly working somewhere at Wizards at some time is irrelevant, especially here.
"People don’t use forums."
Well that was a lie proven immediately wrong the moment you typed it.
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It's easy to assume internet anonymity is the cause of toxicity, but generally, that's a misnomer. Facebook is one of the most toxic websites on the internet, and a lot of hateful people on social media use their real names. Anonymity can make it much safer for people to be themselves. There's a reason why trans people are so prevalent in these sorts of spaces.
I think it's the fleetingness of interactions that tends to encourage toxicity. It's a lot easier to shout "you're an a&@$#&*!" out of a speeding car, but it gets very awkward if you hit a traffic stop two seconds afterward. That's based on a true story, by the way. Except they were yelling something racist at a sign.
Messageboards may be technically anonymous, but that's an oversimplification. Because... are they? Most of us know who I am, who HMM is, and who Sunderstone is. We may not know real names (frankly, I don't think we'll find anyone named "Hmm" on a birth certificate, but nice try!), but we see each other frequently and we have formed expectations for each other's behavior based on repeated interactions. We aren't anonymous in a way that matters, since none of us are planning to abruptly quit the forums and never come back. Our reputations and relationships here matter to us. People feel real to us.
I honestly think messageboards and Discord servers and old IRC chatrooms have emerged as some of the least toxic areas on the internet, and what toxicity emerges is mostly due to the fast pace, people being bad at text-based communication, and anger that would have arisen in-person, too. The combination of steady moderation and recurring faces means that aside from the odd throwaway account, or bigot who has learned to see certain people as less than human, we all end up caring about managing our behavior. When we lose our tempers, we're capable of walking it back. When we act snide, we're capable of apologizing. When we start to realize we're wrong, we stick around long enough to have the chance to accept it.
I don't think this being a messageboard is an excuse for bad behavior or ugly arguments. If anything, it's kind of a sign that we should be working harder. This is our stretch of highway, and it's only going to stay clean if we actively work to keep it that way. We can't blame Jack Dorsey for this one.
EDIT: Also, let's just dispel with this "messageboards are dying because they're obsolete" myth. Messageboards aren't obsolete. They're just not as profitable as Twitter and Facebook and the like, not as popular with the big corporations. You know why?
Because Twitter, Facebook, and virtually all of social media deliberately encourage conflict and toxicity in their design. That drives a ton of engagement and gets a ton of clicks and interactions. Toxicity--being a bad community, the thing you hate--is the thing messageboards are bad at. And that's a huge part of why they're disappearing.
By the way, Discord isn't profitable either. It's on borrowed time, dears. They're scrambling to find a buyer. I love Discord, but that's the problem. They can't find a way to exploit the customers like Facebook can.
Moses was infamous for demolishing communities to build parks and the sort, basically. It was an obscure history joke. :P
It's not that obscure. I knew who you were talking about. I just only knew about the whole bridges aspect because it confused me as a kid.
I worked at Wizards when they got rid of the forums. There was the same hemming and hawing about what an awful, terrible, and xyz issue it was to even consider such a thing. Such interesting thoughts doomsaying that Wizards would never recover from such a trove of awesome resources and posters who were Very Important. You know what the feeling was when they finally did it? Relief. They no longer had to have the Sisyphean moderators having to be responsible for monitoring something that provided very little to any positive correlation to revenue or their bottom line. The trolls, bigots, and people who just love to argue had to take their arguments elsewhere. THIS WAS A VAST IMPROVEMENT TO THE COMPANY. The industry leader has shown you the way so take some lessons from those who have way more resources than you do when they saw it was a net-negative to continue such a thing.
You see Im pretty sure I can dig up Paizo freelancers saying that WoTC management of the community is atrocious. As I said before the forums are only one part of the job and its not like it will change anything as the bigots and trolls still exist and will go elsewhere.
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Not only will they go elsewhere, but they'll also adjourn to bars, parties, and other locations as they high-five each other for taking down a 'woke' organization's community.
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By the way, Discord isn't profitable either. It's on borrowed time, dears. They're scrambling to find a buyer. I love Discord, but that's the problem. They can't find a way to exploit the customers like Facebook can.
Discord made 120m USD revenue in 2020. Part of that was me paying them 10 bucks or so per month for my server. I pay Paizo nothing for *checks notes* watch them fail abysmally at managing their own community.
I get your sentiment for Paizo boards, but it's them that's running on borrowed time, not Discord.