Friendly reminder that Ragathiel has nuance

[Gisher]

Berhagen wrote:

But that is chaotic good, which is an “good ends justify the means” alignment….

I don't understand your point. Chaotic Good is still Good.

[Berhagen]

Yeah somehow I feel the link of revenge killing to good more problematic than killing to prevent further evil in the game. Revenge is (to me) inherently selfish…..

But of course it is also based on personal biases, and where we suspend our principles. For me killing for revenge (as punishment) falls into an area where I cannot allow that as acceptable to a a good alignment.

But indeed also shows limitations of the alignment system.

[Gisher]

Berhagen wrote:

Yeah somehow I feel the link of revenge killing to good more problematic than killing to prevent further evil in the game. Revenge is (to me) inherently selfish…..

But of course it is also based on personal biases, and where we suspend our principles. For me killing for revenge (as punishment) falls into an area where I cannot allow that as acceptable to a a good alignment.

But indeed also shows limitations of the alignment system.

There are soooo many things about the game that would be horrifying to me if they happened in real life. The Enchantment class of spells alone are an ethical nightmare. :)

[The Raven Black]

Berhagen wrote:

But that is chaotic good, which is an “good ends justify the means” alignment….

No. It's not.

[The Raven Black]

Ragathiel's vengeance is Make sure the bad guys don't go unpunished. It is literally part of the description of Lawful Good in the PF1 CRB.

[Kasoh]

The Raven Black wrote:

Ragathiel's vengeance is Make sure the bad guys don't go unpunished. It is literally part of the description of Lawful Good in the PF1 CRB.

That's not vengeance, that's justice.

[Temperans]

Kasoh wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Ragathiel's vengeance is Make sure the bad guys don't go unpunished. It is literally part of the description of Lawful Good in the PF1 CRB.

That's not vengeance, that's justice.

Justice wrote:

* the process or result of using laws to fairly judge and punish crimes and criminals

Justice sits on the Lawful/Chaotic axle, not the Good/Evil one.

Vengeance is an aggressive but neutral term by itself. Whether it's good/evil depends on the context. Ragathiel's thing is 100% what The Raven Black said, "making sure the bad guy don't go unpunished". He would still carry it out fairly, but that wont stop it from being vengeance.

[Kasoh]

Temperans wrote:

Kasoh wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Ragathiel's vengeance is Make sure the bad guys don't go unpunished. It is literally part of the description of Lawful Good in the PF1 CRB.

That's not vengeance, that's justice.

Justice wrote:

* the process or result of using laws to fairly judge and punish crimes and criminals

Justice sits on the Lawful/Chaotic axle, not the Good/Evil one.

Vengeance is an aggressive but neutral term by itself. Whether it's good/evil depends on the context. Ragathiel's thing is 100% what The Raven Black said, "making sure the bad guy don't go unpunished". He would still carry it out fairly, but that wont stop it from being vengeance.

I don't agree that vengeance is neutral. Its selfish and entirely concerned with self-satisfaction.

[The Raven Black]

Kasoh wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Kasoh wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Ragathiel's vengeance is Make sure the bad guys don't go unpunished. It is literally part of the description of Lawful Good in the PF1 CRB.

That's not vengeance, that's justice.

Justice wrote:

* the process or result of using laws to fairly judge and punish crimes and criminals

Justice sits on the Lawful/Chaotic axle, not the Good/Evil one.

Vengeance is an aggressive but neutral term by itself. Whether it's good/evil depends on the context. Ragathiel's thing is 100% what The Raven Black said, "making sure the bad guy don't go unpunished". He would still carry it out fairly, but that wont stop it from being vengeance.

I don't agree that vengeance is neutral. Its selfish and entirely concerned with self-satisfaction.

How is that Evil ?

It seems pretty compatible with protecting the innocents.

[Yakman]

Gisher wrote:

Berhagen wrote:

I would say that revenge is part of legal systems (or has been) like many evil things have been part of historical systems. Condoning revenge killing (which Ragathiel appears to do) would be evil by most current standards.

Killing in absence of self-defense would indeed be dinged as evil in my games. (But I admit my bias is likely quite strong hailing from a country that abolished the death penalty 150+ years ago…)z

In the game, Good and Evil are absolutes and are clearly not in line with many modern ethical systems in the real world. Although I don't find the terms 'good' and 'evil' to be useful in ethical philosophy, I am also opposed to the use of violence except in self-defense. But my Good characters aren't. Because it's a game.

YUP.

[Yakman]

Gisher wrote:

Berhagen wrote:

Yeah somehow I feel the link of revenge killing to good more problematic than killing to prevent further evil in the game. Revenge is (to me) inherently selfish…..

But of course it is also based on personal biases, and where we suspend our principles. For me killing for revenge (as punishment) falls into an area where I cannot allow that as acceptable to a a good alignment.

But indeed also shows limitations of the alignment system.

There are soooo many things about the game that would be horrifying to me if they happened in real life. The Enchantment class of spells alone are an ethical nightmare. :)

GM: Roll 50 sanity checks.

Player: What?
GM: Giant spider showed up.

[Gamerskum]

The lore around Ragathiel has him extremely concerned over making sure, every punishment is balanced with the crime and not to give in to the dark spite-filled pretty vengeance Calistria upholds.

Vengence might be the wrong word, but what it boils down to is Ragathiel and his followers are the people that put themselves in front of those that are mistreated and victimized, those that make sure evil doesn't get away with things because it would be more convenient to look the other way or because they are rich and powerful.

In a medieval fantasy-style world that means mostly violence but they aren't murderhobos and nothing about Ragathiel if you don't let splitting hairs bout the meaning of vengeance get in the way says or even implies they or he is about that just killing people.

[TwilightKnight]

Ragathiel is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma. He is one of the powers that I have flagged for my home campaigns such that if a player wants to worship them, I want to have a thorough discussion about how they view his doctrines and dogma so we can reduce/eliminate any conflicts during the game. His very existence is a conundrum, as he encourages the destruction of fiends as "irreparable" evil, but he is himself born of a fiend and was redeemed. To simply ignore that nuance and paint him as a "murder hobo for justice" is wrong, IMHO.

[Berhagen]

Gamerskum wrote:

The lore around Ragathiel has him extremely concerned over making sure, every punishment is balanced with the crime and not to give in to the dark spite-filled pretty vengeance Calistria upholds.

Vengence might be the wrong word, but what it boils down to is Ragathiel and his followers are the people that put themselves in front of those that are mistreated and victimized, those that make sure evil doesn't get away with things because it would be more convenient to look the other way or because they are rich and powerful.

In a medieval fantasy-style world that means mostly violence but they aren't murderhobos and nothing about Ragathiel if you don't let splitting hairs bout the meaning of vengeance get in the way says or even implies they or he is about that just killing people.

Yeah and I can get behind that, but then revenge / vengeance is the wrong word. It is about justice….. and a measured sentence is not vengeance. Vengeance is based on passion/selfishness.

But I also can like more nuanced gods, but the alignment system is badly suited to that …..

[The Raven Black]

Berhagen wrote:

Gamerskum wrote:

The lore around Ragathiel has him extremely concerned over making sure, every punishment is balanced with the crime and not to give in to the dark spite-filled pretty vengeance Calistria upholds.

Vengence might be the wrong word, but what it boils down to is Ragathiel and his followers are the people that put themselves in front of those that are mistreated and victimized, those that make sure evil doesn't get away with things because it would be more convenient to look the other way or because they are rich and powerful.

In a medieval fantasy-style world that means mostly violence but they aren't murderhobos and nothing about Ragathiel if you don't let splitting hairs bout the meaning of vengeance get in the way says or even implies they or he is about that just killing people.

Yeah and I can get behind that, but then revenge / vengeance is the wrong word. It is about justice….. and a measured sentence is not vengeance. Vengeance is based on passion/selfishness.

But I also can like more nuanced gods, but the alignment system is badly suited to that …..

It is not about justice per se. Just as judge and executioner are not the same job and do not have the same goals.

[Kasoh]

The Raven Black wrote:

It is not about justice per se. Just as judge and executioner are not the same job and do not have the same goals.

I feel like there's a Judge Dredd joke to make here, but anyway...

[Gamerskum]

Vengence can be Just or it can be pretty. If punishment is inflicted or retribution exacted for an injury or wrong then that is vengeance. If it is measured it would be just if it isn't it would be petty.

[The Raven Black]

I feel vengeance here is kind of the justice (or rather the execution of justice) you can get when you're far from LG communities : wilderness, dungeons.

Basically, it's an adventurers' justice, where you have to be judge, jury and executioner while staying LG.

[CorvusMask]

Modern day looks pretty bad on concept of vengeance, yet we have Batman <_< Its that weird thing people can't agree on.

(either way I'm glad some people are getting what I mean rather than just going "Nah Ragathiel is just simple minded murder hobo paladin god", I'm annoyed whenever people put Ragathiel as most likely deity to fall because that kinda feels like "oh so every good guy that used to be fiend is just secretly bad? ;P" )

[UnArcaneElection]

^. . . And who says Batman doesn't have nuance?

[Kasoh]

CorvusMask wrote:

Modern day looks pretty bad on concept of vengeance, yet we have Batman <_< Its that weird thing people can't agree on.

(either way I'm glad some people are getting what I mean rather than just going "Nah Ragathiel is just simple minded murder hobo paladin god", I'm annoyed whenever people put Ragathiel as most likely deity to fall because that kinda feels like "oh so every good guy that used to be fiend is just secretly bad? ;P" )

No, he's the X-Treme 90's version of a Paladin god. His sword of Justice is all edge.