Friendly reminder that Ragathiel has nuance

[CorvusMask]

So this is mostly because Ragathiel is most stereotypical murderhobo paladin in minds of many, but the dude actually has plenty of nuance

Like in 1e these two lines are part of his paladin code "Rage is a virtue and a strength only when focused against the deserving. I will never seek disproportionate retribution."

and

"Redemption finds hearts from even the cruelest origins. I will strive not to act upon prejudice against fellow mortals based on race or origin."

So while in 2e he does have edicts

"Avenge the wronged, destroy evildoers"

and anathema "forgive those who have irreparably sinned",

Ragathiel cares more about your actions than who you are since he isn't being hypocrite about him originally having been from hell.

"Followers of Ragathiel include crusaders, knights, soldiers, the falsely accused, the marginalized, and the wronged." meaning I would't be surprised if he had surprising high amount of "monster ancestry" followers.

...Err, so yeah that is pretty much it. Please do not assume Raggy is just deus vult god or some crap like that :p

[keftiu]

I'm holding out hope to see him and Arazni in a Pantheon together in the Knights of Lastwall book... they line up on so much, and might hopefully bring out the better side of one another.

[Rysky]

keftiu wrote:

I'm holding out hope to see him and Arazni in a Pantheon together in the Knights of Lastwall book... they line up on so much, and might hopefully bring out the better side of one another.

I never knew I wanted this combo till now.

[keftiu]

Rysky wrote:

keftiu wrote:

I'm holding out hope to see him and Arazni in a Pantheon together in the Knights of Lastwall book... they line up on so much, and might hopefully bring out the better side of one another.

I never knew I wanted this combo till now.

IIRC, one of the writeups of the Knights of Lastwall says that many believe the Crimson Oath is empowered by Ragathiel, but seems to imply that they may have a different patron... who is the same person hiding unwilling undead among the Knights' ranks. It sounds like Arazni to me, but I bet there's enough genuine Ragathiel devotees that the two could have some accord.

[Rysky]

Yessssss

[Leon Aquilla]

I dislike following empyreal lords over legit deities anyways.

[Kasoh]

I haven't seen a lot of condemnation of Ragathiel for executing folks who are othered, but I do see a lot of side eyes because killing people is his preferred solution to wrongdoing.

When you have an anathema that precludes forgiveness to those who "irreparably sinned" you end up asking a lot of questions like 'What is an irreparable sin?' (Ask your GMs, folks!) I got to tell you, while nothing on the internet is more exhilarating than a no stakes alignment discussion, it is actually not all that fun at the table when discussing the moral quandaries of your make believe elves.

[CorvusMask]

Kasoh wrote:

I haven't seen a lot of condemnation of Ragathiel for executing folks who are othered, but I do see a lot of side eyes because killing people is his preferred solution to wrongdoing.

When you have an anathema that precludes forgiveness to those who "irreparably sinned" you end up asking a lot of questions like 'What is an irreparable sin?' (Ask your GMs, folks!) I got to tell you, while nothing on the internet is more exhilarating than a no stakes alignment discussion, it is actually not all that fun at the table when discussing the moral quandaries of your make believe elves.

Well its really matters on who you ask. "Irreparably" literally means "impossible to repair or recover from". So if you are like Shelyn and believe anyone can be redeemed then you believe nobody is irreparably evil :p

Another thing is that viewing Ragathiel as just "evil killer god" is again missing the nuance.

"The General of Vengeance presides over chivalry, duty, and vengeance, acting as the quintessential knight. Born of the archdevil Dispater and Feronia, a neutral demigoddess of fire, Ragathiel struggles to overcome the reputation of his parentage, and he understands the struggle to be accepted, to be trusted, and to fight against his own nature for the sake of good. He represents strength in battle, wrath upon the wicked, absolution or vengeance for the wronged, leadership when needed, and virtue and duty to the innocent. He expects his followers to destroy fiends when they find them and to work toward truly earning the trust and acceptance of those around them. Those who follow him lead by shining example and can be found on the front lines of battle or any conflict against evil they can find."

Ragathiel is patron of those who feel wronged. Aka he is the one who hears voice of those suffering under evil, silenced and forgotten.

What I'm saying is that when you read what Ragathiel is about, you understand both in good and bad what it means: irreparably sin is act committed against the wronged which can't be made right, can't be fixed with reparation, can't be healed from. So only justice left for wronged is absolution by destruction of the one who wronged them.

(Ragathiel is fricking dark god for good aligned one but I think trying to create semantics for making Ragathiel fall as paladin is missing the story evoked by what he is)

[Kasoh]

CorvusMask wrote:

Well its really matters on who you ask. "Irreparably" literally means "impossible to repair or recover from". So if you are like Shelyn and believe anyone can be redeemed then you believe nobody is irreparably evil :p

While its nice that words have literal meanings, what is "impossible to repair or recover from" isn't much more clear. Who determines what is and is not possible to recover from? (The GM)

In the case of murder, you might argue that its an irreparable sin as the victim cannot recover. Or is there a chance the victim's family cannot recover from the loss and thus, the murderer should be executed? Is the irreparable damage material, or is it entirely emotional?

This was also the guy who's deific obedience back in PF1 was 'execute a (proven) criminal in Ragathiel's name.' And not even ones who have done irreparable harm, just ones who committed unlawful or evil deeds.

Every morning.

Yeah, he earned his murderhobo reputation in PF1

And yeah, it wasn't a good look. PF2 softened him quite a bit.

Ragathiel the character might be very nuanced. Shining example, horrific past, striving to be the very best like no one ever was in spite of his background.

His church and philosophy do not strike me as nuanced. Find bad people. Destroy them. Which is fine, by the way. I don't think deities should have particularly nuanced philosophies because trying to encapsulate a nuanced dogma into 3 edicts and 3 anathema isn't going to end well.

[CorvusMask]

That is the thing though, its entirely subjective concept <_< You can't answer it objectively because it is subjectively, so you have to go at it with nuanced approach rather than "okay what counts rule wise" which is both good and bad thing.

[Kasoh]

CorvusMask wrote:

That is the thing though, its entirely subjective concept <_< You can't answer it objectively because it is subjectively, so you have to go at it with nuanced approach rather than "okay what counts rule wise" which is both good and bad thing.

Vague is not nuance. It sounds cool, and it fits Ragathiel's More X-Treme Paladin character pretty well, but as a basis for justice and righting wrongs, vengeance is rarely the best place to start with which makes me suspect of the whole thing.

Vengeance, as a concept, does not seem to align quite properly with LG alignment, after all, vengeance is also Calistria's domain. Ragathiel manages to hold on with grit and determination. His nobility and duty towards chivalric ideals perhaps uplifts him.

Of course, as readers and players of the game we cannot embody the world to see a lot of the nuance or find the clarity of vaguely defined aspects. Perhaps there is a large corpus of doctrine that guides Ragathiel's church and the delicate nature of his edicts and anathema are debate topics. The Mendevian Orthodox Church of Ragathiel probably has different views on the matter than the Magnimar Presbyterian Chapter of Ragathiel Worship, and neither of them really want to talk about the Holy Order of Ragathiel Reformation. (Those nutjobs).

[james014Aura]

Is this thread because of my questions in the ask James Jacobs anything thread? Because those are because I was considering playing a Ragathielan and was trying to understand him a bit better, starting from a view similar to the first post.

Do you guys think harsh sentences spent mostly undoing stuff the sentenced villain has done (provided they've only done things that could be undone or repaired) would be in line with his 2e softer self?

[CorvusMask]

Nah, this thread is because of long running misunderstanding of what Ragathiel is about in the community in general xP

Anyway, now you are getting to core of why Ragathiel is fairly controversial: This is setting with objective morality while Ragathiel is god that makes more sense with subjective perspective.

Like, I don't think the issue is that Ragathiel's teachings should be less vague because they can be interpreted in so many ways. My view is that Ragathiel is god whose teachings can't be applied in every situation BECAUSE they are subjective hence why they are vague and less rule text like. So trying to apply them without nuance results in paladin falling.

Lot of players play paladins with assumption that "they are absolutely convinced they are in the right without question", but Ragathiel paladin would make much more sense to play with assumption that yes they don't always know what is right thing to do and they seek the answers while doing the good deeds. They are struggling with balance just like their patron is.

Now in general whether "Vengeance" as concept fits good alignment... Is subjective surprise surprise. Like let's face it, Ragathiel is about as weird god as Damerrich LG god of executions who from my perspective is bit absurd as execution is barbaric practice to give audience satisfaction at "justice being done" if you ask me :p But we are also talking about setting where "Holy Avenger" is name of a paladin blade.

So ye kinda have to accept that "Righteous Vengeance" is considered valid concept in setting(real life wise, vengeance is pretty much always referred to form of unlawful justice :P I'm very much in agreement that when thinking about it objectively, CN makes more sense than LG), same way nobody questions why Marvel Avengers are well avengers instead of something more heroic sounding. Ragathiel is based on concept of "avenging the wrongs" so that means just seeing Ragathiel as "anti evil god" is bit off because there isn't wrong being avenged if evil hasn't been performed yet. So Ragathiel's faith is by definition reactionary: Someone performed evil deed and now faithful are coming after them. There is no "preemptive" aspect to it.

(just for comparison, Vildeis is an empyreal lord all about destruction of evil even at cost to self and also LG <_< lot of archon empyreal lords seem extreme)

[The Raven Black]

Kasoh wrote:

This was also the guy who's deific obedience back in PF1 was 'execute a (proven) criminal in Ragathiel's name.' And not even ones who have done irreparable harm, just ones who committed unlawful or evil deeds.

Every morning.

Yeah, he earned his murderhobo reputation in PF1

This was a common misunderstanding.

The deific obedience is NOT something you had to do everyday. It was something you did to benefit from the powers it gave, which were pretty strong for Ragathiel.

So, yes, murderhobo players only there for the power and not caring a bit about the setting and roleplaying would flock to Ragathiel's banner and practice his obedience every day.

Whereas the obedience made more sense as Should you fight a really evil opponent and kill them, Ragathiel's blessing will help you against the other evildoers you fight this day.

Pretty popular IC in the Worldwound area IMO.

[Kasoh]

The Raven Black wrote:

Kasoh wrote:

This was also the guy who's deific obedience back in PF1 was 'execute a (proven) criminal in Ragathiel's name.' And not even ones who have done irreparable harm, just ones who committed unlawful or evil deeds.

Every morning.

Yeah, he earned his murderhobo reputation in PF1

This was a common misunderstanding.

The deific obedience is NOT something you had to do everyday. It was something you did to benefit from the powers it gave, which were pretty strong for Ragathiel.

So, yes, murderhobo players only there for the power and not caring a bit about the setting and roleplaying would flock to Ragathiel's banner and practice his obedience every day.

Whereas the obedience made more sense as Should you fight a really evil opponent and kill them, Ragathiel's blessing will help you against the other evildoers you fight this day.

Pretty popular IC in the Worldwound area IMO.

Certainly true. I'm having a bit of fun, but you certainly do not need to have your deific obedience up 24/7. If you're in a dungeon or whatever, I'm sure you won't have problems getting it going after the first encounter or whathaveyou. But the flavor of a lot of the obediences fit a daily prayer sort of feel. The mechanics of the game did not fit nicely into his flavor.

Because they don't print a lot of Ragathiel content, what you do print has to be on point, otherwise his characterization and church get Flanderized.

[Kasoh]

james014Aura wrote:

Is this thread because of my questions in the ask James Jacobs anything thread? Because those are because I was considering playing a Ragathielan and was trying to understand him a bit better, starting from a view similar to the first post.

Do you guys think harsh sentences spent mostly undoing stuff the sentenced villain has done (provided they've only done things that could be undone or repaired) would be in line with his 2e softer self?

Its an interesting question. Ragathiel wants the innocent and weak to have Vengeance from the wrongs committed to them. Now, his edict is "avenge the wronged" and his anathema is "Forgive those who have irreparably sinned".

I'm prone to reading Ragathiel as very old school. Wrath upon those who have done the innocent wrong. I expect death sentence is a common outcome of a Ragathiel judgement for a variety of crimes. One, because a PC is often not able to dedicate the time to an area to ensure a more restitutional sentence is carried out and two, the average person doesn't have lofty notions of criminal justice. Eye for an eye feels good, so if you're relying on the victim to say what is and is not sufficient restitution, you'll likely be disappointed.

Likely, this will be the main drama/role playing hook of a moderate Ragathiel worshipper. Can you fulfill your deity's rites while not falling victim to 'kill'em all?'

I think its an unsustainable position, given the edicts, but I would also be interested in seeing how it played at the table because, hey, could be wrong.

[james014Aura]

PCs can't dedicate the time, but what about the magistrates of, say, Magnimar or other cities? (And re: eye for eye, "provided they've only done things that could be undone or repaired"). EDIT: For clarity, I'm talking about, just turning the villains over to the magistrates.

[Kasoh]

james014Aura wrote:

PCs can't dedicate the time, but what about the magistrates of, say, Magnimar or other cities? (And re: eye for eye, "provided they've only done things that could be undone or repaired"). EDIT: For clarity, I'm talking about, just turning the villains over to the magistrates.

I suppose that depends on how strongly the character feels about it. Handing a prisoner over to authorities and letting them handle it is a solution, but Magnimar is under no compulsion to issue a sentence that is up to what Ragathiel's standards demand--at that point you are abdicating your responsibility as a Champion of Vengeance to another authority. Which, as a (likely) lawful good character might be satisfactory. Or perhaps it isn't.

The character has a standard of conduct and a code of justice to uphold. That will conflict with the realities of bureaucratic jurisprudence. Threading that needle is the thing.

As an adventurer, there probably won't be that many cases where the solution isn't clear cut. Adventurers tend to track down and kill monsters in the literal and figurative sense. But occasionally you'll have to tackle odd ball situations.

But, ultimately you or the character will have to square up with 'What is something that can't be undone or repaired?' If someone stole heirloom jewelry and melted it down, that work of art is destroyed forever. But its just jewelry. Is monetary compensation enough for that? Is a few years of hard labor in Magnimar's murder cult prison sufficient to satisfy the emotional harm caused by the act?

Of course, table etiquette is going to come into play as well. The other players may not be willing to indulge in repeated digressions into this kind of quandary and you'll probably end up dumping prisoners off at the local magistrate or dumping bodies in the river.

[The Raven Black]

Remember that a Champion has an obligation to honor their code. Not to impose it on anyone else.

Also Ragathiel's faithful should be extremely wary of prejudices and hasty judgements. However, when the case is clear, they strike mercilessly so that Evil does not survive to hurt people again.

[Kasoh]

The Raven Black wrote:

Remember that a Champion has an obligation to honor their code. Not to impose it on anyone else.

Also Ragathiel's faithful should be extremely wary of prejudices and hasty judgements. However, when the case is clear, they strike mercilessly so that Evil does not survive to hurt people again.

I don't know how one Avenges people without imposing their definition of justice and retribution on anyone else. Feels like a late night commercial.

"Have you suffered irreparable harm? Do you need justice? Call your local Champion of Ragathiel with the details of your case today!"

"We're ready to Avenge you!"*

*Vengeance not available in all cities, nation-states, or kingdoms. Subject to fees and taxes where applicable. Offer void where prohibited by law.

[the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh]

Kasoh wrote:

I got to tell you, while nothing on the internet is more exhilarating than a no stakes alignment discussion, it is actually not all that fun at the table when discussing the moral quandaries of your make believe elves.

Fwiw, for many of my groups that sort of discussion is a very welcome part of the fun.

[YourNewShoe]

james014Aura wrote:

PCs can't dedicate the time, but what about the magistrates of, say, Magnimar or other cities? (And re: eye for eye, "provided they've only done things that could be undone or repaired"). EDIT: For clarity, I'm talking about, just turning the villains over to the magistrates.

That has the problem of, well - firstly the worldbuilding question of "does this ~medieval/Renaissance-esque society even have institutions devoted to this?", but assuming that's the case, will they listen to random adventurers who march in and say "hi, this guy is an evil cultist, please lock him up for a while and maybe teach him to stop being evil, thanks!"?

Especially for adventures that happen outside of the obvious reach of the law of whatever place they're being brought.

[james014Aura]

YourNewShoe wrote:

That has the problem of, well - firstly the worldbuilding question of "does this ~medieval/Renaissance-esque society even have institutions devoted to this?", but assuming that's the case, will they listen to random adventurers who march in and say "hi, this guy is an evil cultist, please lock him up for a while and maybe teach him to stop being evil, thanks!"?

Especially for adventures that happen outside of the obvious reach of the law of whatever place they're being brought.

I was thinking more along the lines of, "Hey, we captured these two cultists outside town. We'll stay long enough to provide four sworn testimonies about the circumstances. And here's the group's journals for evidence. "

I mean, Rise of the Runelords established Magnimar's justice system has some intricacies to it, already.

Outside that reach, though... well, that is an issue, but I was concerned more about close to the cities.

[Onkonk]

They mentioned the Crimson Reclaimers at the Secrets of Golarion panel at PaizoCon, The-Magic-Sword did a write up on reddit where they wrote this:

TMS wrote:

"Is Arazni backing the Crimson Reclaimers?" There sure are hints that someone like Arazni is backing them, Luis likes the idea that Ragathiel is doing it, but expects to mislead people for the next five years. Its not Arazni OR Ragathiel, is the point.

[UnArcaneElection]

CorvusMask wrote:

{. . .}

Now in general whether "Vengeance" as concept fits good alignment... Is subjective surprise surprise. Like let's face it, Ragathiel is about as weird god as Damerrich LG god of executions who from my perspective is bit absurd as execution is barbaric practice to give audience satisfaction at "justice being done" if you ask me :p But we are also talking about setting where "Holy Avenger" is name of a paladin blade.

According to his Archives of Nethys page, Damerrich's Obedience is "Recite all the names you can recall of those who have died by your hand. Mediate upon their faces and the circumstances of their deaths, evaluating your actions in the light of cold law." Although that requires some record keeping or a very good memory on the character's part, this is easier to fulfill every day than Ragathiel's Obedience. Once you have killed even 1 creature that has a name (which is highly likely in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting if you do any adventuring at all, and it doesn't even have to be an execution), you don't even ever have to kill another creature. It could easily be the repentance of someone who has taken a life and now regrets it. After all, Damerrich also has the portfolios of judiciousness and responsibility as well as executions.

The Raven Black wrote:

Kasoh wrote:

This was also the guy who's deific obedience back in PF1 was 'execute a (proven) criminal in Ragathiel's name.' And not even ones who have done irreparable harm, just ones who committed unlawful or evil deeds.

Every morning.

Yeah, he earned his murderhobo reputation in PF1

This was a common misunderstanding.

The deific obedience is NOT something you had to do everyday. It was something you did to benefit from the powers it gave, which were pretty strong for Ragathiel.
{. . .}

Problem with that is that if you took a prestige class that depends upon Ragathiel's Obedience (Mystery Cultist), all of your spellcasting becomes dependent upon performing your Obedience every day: "In order to maintain the abilities granted by this prestige class (including all spellcasting abilities that have been augmented by this prestige class), a mystery cultist must indulge in a daily obedience to her chosen empyreal lord".

So this is a serious logistical problem for one who has Ragathiel's Obedience, and especially a Mystery Cultist of Ragathiel: While the world may have no shortage of wrongdoers, you may quickly exhaust the local supply of proven wrongdoers and then lose much of your power, upon which point the wrongdoers who were more competent at hiding their wrongdoing jump you (or preferably have their agents do it) while you're weak.

[Totally Not Gorbacz]

Ragathiel has some deep nuance - you can Kill Evil in His Name using a flaming chainsword or a regular one.

[The-Magic-Sword]

Onkonk wrote:

They mentioned the Crimson Reclaimers at the Secrets of Golarion panel at PaizoCon, The-Magic-Sword did a write up on reddit where they wrote this:

TMS wrote:

"Is Arazni backing the Crimson Reclaimers?" There sure are hints that someone like Arazni is backing them, Luis likes the idea that Ragathiel is doing it, but expects to mislead people for the next five years. Its not Arazni OR Ragathiel, is the point.

I still think about this one all the time, its like "but darn those would have been really cool" but it also suggests the real answer is even more interesting, potentially.

[The Raven Black]

One hypothesis is that it is not OR because it is AND.

[Berhagen]

I find it interesting that any empyreal lord of vengeance can be lawful good. To me he reads more as a demon lord. Or at best he is a Janus figure who is simultaneously chaotic evil and chaotic good.

Maybe something for a future update to make clear that all vengeance is evil……

[Rysky]

Vengeance isn't evil though.

[The Raven Black]

Hurting innocent people is Evil in PF. Guilty people are another matter entirely.

It is why PCs, including Good Champions, can kill in self-defense without becoming Evil.

[The Raven Black]

I read Vengeance as making sure the guilty do not escape punishment. It is very much a Lawful Good thing.

[Temperans]

Vengeance does not mean kill. But it does mean doing what you can to stop the target of your vengeance from continuing to do harm. Its why one of the big tropes regarding vengeance is that the target did you wrong, but afterwards they changed as a person to redeem themselves.

Which is exactly the things Ragathiel asks you to do in PF1. Do your best to carry out justice as best you can, but don't let it color your judgement. Which is hard to read from the PF2 text, but it is there in the subtext. It is very hard to find an "irreparably sin", which gives them an open letter to forgive anyone who they deemed have payed/repented enough.

* P.S. One example for "irreparably sinned" is making use of the Book of the Dammed to actually cast spells. Reading from it is one thing, but actually casting with it? Hard to see any good that would result from that.

[Kasoh]

Vengeance isn't aligned in a traditional sense. Calistria also demands vegeance for personal slights and is CN. Ragathiel wants vengeance for victims and is LG.

Personally, I find that vengeance easily veers into disproportionate. It is easy to misuse vengeance and it fits better amongst those of a chaotic dispostion. Justice is about reparation, fairness, and punishment. Vengeance is about satisfaction--feeling good.

[The Raven Black]

Kasoh wrote:

Vengeance isn't aligned in a traditional sense. Calistria also demands vegeance for personal slights and is CN. Ragathiel wants vengeance for victims and is LG.

Personally, I find that vengeance easily veers into disproportionate. It is easy to misuse vengeance and it fits better amongst those of a chaotic dispostion. Justice is about reparation, fairness, and punishment. Vengeance is about satisfaction--feeling good.

The Avengers ?

[Kasoh]

The Raven Black wrote:

Kasoh wrote:

Vengeance isn't aligned in a traditional sense. Calistria also demands vegeance for personal slights and is CN. Ragathiel wants vengeance for victims and is LG.

Personally, I find that vengeance easily veers into disproportionate. It is easy to misuse vengeance and it fits better amongst those of a chaotic dispostion. Justice is about reparation, fairness, and punishment. Vengeance is about satisfaction--feeling good.

The Avengers ?

The Avengers track record is not one of nuance or restraint. Granted, the things The Avengers are called upon to handle don't usually warrant either.

There's also slight difference in meaning of Avenge and Revenge, though vengeance is a root of both, I think. I'm sure someone will find a dictionary entry to say I'm wrong, but Avenge is a word broadly concerned with inflicting a punishment or penalty in the pursuit of justice. Revenge is a word broadly concerned with inflicting harm or punishment for personal retaliation.

There's also Batman, who actually proclaims that "He is vengeance, he is the night, and et al." And Batman inflicts severe bodily trauma extra-legally and beyond the scope of the justice system.

Batman would probably be a good Ragathiel worshipper, really.(Killing rule aside) And that's kind of the thing. Ragathiel is X-Treme. Paladin turned up to 11. Ticket buys the seat, but Ragathiel only needs the edge.

[Temperans]

I was curious after you pointed out where the words come from and wow it's just a loop with the origin of latin vindicare (vindicate). Vengeance come from old french vengier/venger. Revenge (noun/verb) comes from revencher or re- (expressing force) and vengier. Avenge (verb) comes from a- (to) and vengier.

So revenge is to avenge. While avenge is to do vengeance. But then avenge and revenge are synonyms that express the feeling of what is happening and for whom. All three words basically point to each other like the spider-man meme.

[CorvusMask]

I wonder where Revengeance fits in :p

[Kasoh]

CorvusMask wrote:

I wonder where Revengeance fits in :p

I think after Guns of the Patriots.

[Themetricsystem]

Temperans wrote:

While avenge is to do vengeance. But then avenge and revenge are synonyms that express the feeling of what is happening and for whom. All three words basically point to each other like the spider-man meme.

Justification for violence is generally always a circular loop. Always has been.

[Berhagen]

Revenge is never good at the very least. And it is also never lawful. I hope Paizo also take this one to heart and clarify ragathiel as a (deluded) demon for 3e.

[Rysky]

You’re showing your biases pretty hard here. Revenge is neither Chaotic nor Evil. What alignment it may be entirely depends on the type of revenge.

Also Ragathiel is a LG Ascended Devil so him turning into a Demon would be weird.

[Gisher]

Berhagen wrote:

Revenge is never good at the very least. And it is also never lawful.

Rights to revenge have been part of legal systems in many real-world cultures. So it can definitely be lawful.

As to whether it can be good... "My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die!"

[Temperans]

There are honestly a lot of ways to have lawful good revenge. Everything from suing in a court of law, to taking them down via totally legal dueling to the death.

Ragathiel would 100% do the latter, let some other person handle the legal work.

[Kasoh]

Gisher wrote:

Berhagen wrote:

Revenge is never good at the very least. And it is also never lawful.

As to whether it can be good... "My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die!"

Cathartic, yes. Good? Inigo was such a good swordsman that the Six Fingered Man had no chance of winning. It wasn't a duel, just a prolonged execution. And he toyed with him before he killed him too. Great television, but "Cool motive, still murder."

Can an execution be good? Pathfinder's alignment system does not usually ding people for killing evil people, but that depends on the table you're playing at.

[Berhagen]

I would say that revenge is part of legal systems (or has been) like many evil things have been part of historical systems. Condoning revenge killing (which Ragathiel appears to do) would be evil by most current standards.

Killing in absence of self-defense would indeed be dinged as evil in my games. (But I admit my bias is likely quite strong hailing from a country that abolished the death penalty 150+ years ago…)z

[MindFl*yer98]

Kasoh wrote:

Gisher wrote:

Berhagen wrote:

Revenge is never good at the very least. And it is also never lawful.

As to whether it can be good... "My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die!"

Cathartic, yes. Good? Inigo was such a good swordsman that the Six Fingered Man had no chance of winning. It wasn't a duel, just a prolonged execution. And he toyed with him before he killed him too. Great television, but "Cool motive, still murder."

Can an execution be good? Pathfinder's alignment system does not usually ding people for killing evil people, but that depends on the table you're playing at.

Dammerich says "yes", he is the Empyreal lord of executions. As for the "alignment of revenge" debate i would also agree that, as an action, it can never be good and probably never lawful. That does not mean that LG charachters can't pursue it. Revenge is always a deeply personal and self-concerned action. It can't be good becuse it is ultimately selfish, even when it has an overall good effect on the world. This is what separates it from extra-judicial justice. And the fact that it is so personal makes it not-lawful. Law is standardized, impersonal, emotionless. It can give you the right of revenge, but it unconcerned with your emotions. And revenge is all about emotion, about personal satisfaction. Law sets limits to preserve the commmunity, revenge does not care at all about the community.

[Gisher]

Kasoh wrote:

Gisher wrote:

Berhagen wrote:

Revenge is never good at the very least. And it is also never lawful.

As to whether it can be good... "My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die!"

Cathartic, yes. Good? Inigo was such a good swordsman that the Six Fingered Man had no chance of winning. It wasn't a duel, just a prolonged execution. And he toyed with him before he killed him too. Great television, but "Cool motive, still murder."

Murder is culturally defined. In a society in which a code duello is legal, which seems to be the case in the Princess Bride, killing someone in a duel because you are better than them isn't murder.

And in game terms, a Paladin who kills some evil henchmen hasn't committed an evil act just because they were lower level.

Kasoh wrote:

Can an execution be good? Pathfinder's alignment system does not usually ding people for killing evil people, but that depends on the table you're playing at.

Killing the second in command of a tyrannical regime - a person who had personally engaged in murder, torture, and kidnapping as part of that regime - sounds like something that would be very much in line with the Chaotic Good tenets of a Liberator.

[Berhagen]

But that is chaotic good, which is an “good ends justify the means” alignment….

[Gisher]

Berhagen wrote:

I would say that revenge is part of legal systems (or has been) like many evil things have been part of historical systems. Condoning revenge killing (which Ragathiel appears to do) would be evil by most current standards.

Killing in absence of self-defense would indeed be dinged as evil in my games. (But I admit my bias is likely quite strong hailing from a country that abolished the death penalty 150+ years ago…)z

In the game, Good and Evil are absolutes and are clearly not in line with many modern ethical systems in the real world. Although I don't find the terms 'good' and 'evil' to be useful in ethical philosophy, I am also opposed to the use of violence except in self-defense. But my Good characters aren't. Because it's a game.