For a while, I've had the idea in my head to make a character that focuses on natural attacks and polymorphing, two of my favorite mechanics in the game. After some discussion, I've stumbled upon a meta build that does just that and excels, Alchemist with the vivisectionist and beastmorph archetypes.
I know that this is generally considered a VERY op setup if done right, and while I do love making effective characters, I'm more interested in making a monstery fella than I am breaking the game over my knee. I like it because it gets rid of bombs and poison, the two parts of alchemist I don't plan on using, and turns it all into stuff that encourages being a big cool monster.
So far I've got these Ability Scores: 25 PB- Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 7.
For my race, I've got two main options I'm thinking of. The first is human, since it's plain and simple and an extra feat on a class that doesn't get any bonus feats is nice. The second is Skinwalker with the Wereraptor subrace so I can get 2 talon attacks. If I take the wereraptor race (I know the wereboar is better, but I just don't like pigs), the admins of the westmarch I'm in told me that I can't take Feral Mutagen until level 6, that way I don't have 5 attacks before everyone else has 2, which is understandable.
For feats, I know Power Attack is a must for any strength oriented attacker and I plan on taking that at level 1. Beyond that, though, I'm a little stumped. I know that, due to vivisectionist and my potentially absurd amount of attacks, I want to maximize the time spent full attacking while flaking or denying enemies their dexterity so I can pile on sneak attacks. Apparently, going down the Spring Attack chain of feats is a good way to get into position for that, and the Cornugion Smash and Shatter Defenses feat paths are other good ways to be able to consistently achieve your sneak attack damage.
What do you all think? Which race should I choose? What feats are good for this build? I'm still very new, so assume I don't know most feats. I've also not played a proper melee character before, so I'm not terribly familiar with a lot of the nuances of being on the front-line.
For a while, I've had the idea in my head to make a character that focuses on natural attacks and polymorphing, two of my favorite mechanics in the game. After some discussion, I've stumbled upon a meta build that does just that and excels, Alchemist with the vivisectionist and beastmorph archetypes.
I hope you're aware that this build isn't actually using polymorphing.
For my race, I've got two main options I'm thinking of. The first is human, since it's plain and simple and an extra feat on a class that doesn't get any bonus feats is nice.
Non-polymorphed natural attack build is very un-feat-hungry, so human is fairly weak. I'd rate a bunch of races, including half-elf and half-orc, higher (for a more rounded out character).
The second is Skinwalker with the Wereraptor subrace so I can get 2 talon attacks. If I take the wereraptor race (I know the wereboar is better, but I just don't like pigs)
I'm honestly not even sure Wereraptor is weaker than Wereboar - the ability score modifiers are worse, but the foot attacks are primary rather than secondary, and it's not that hard to get a gore attack. Overall, Wereraptor is very strong here, and most importantly, it adds bit more of a quasi-polymorph component. You should check with your GM whether discoveries like Wings, Mummification, Vestigial Arm (nice for holding a shield!) work in feral form, though.
I know that, due to vivisectionist and my potentially absurd amount of attacks, I want to maximize the time spent full attacking while flaking or denying enemies their dexterity so I can pile on sneak attacks.
I'd actually advice against that. When you can full attack, your character should already be very strong, and thus investing into Sneak Attacking in such situations can easily be a "win more". I'd prioritize shoring up weaknesses, especially the will save.
Toughness and Cunning can grant HP and skill ranks, respectively, and Extra Discovery is always an option.
For more damage, there are options, too - there's a feat to get an extra gore attack (Spirit Oni Master, has alignment restriction though), Demonic Style becomes rather powerful once you get pounce at 10th level, and the Spell Knowledge discovery should qualify you for Arcane Strike. Before picking those I would recommend looking at how your character compares to the others, to prevent overshadowing, though.
Apparently, going down the Spring Attack chain of feats is a good way to get into position for that
Huh? Spring Attack is terrible for your character. The followup Circling Mongoose would be a way to trigger Sneak Attack, but four feats are a very high cost.
Oh, and because I would be remiss if I didn't mention it: The Metamorph archetype would let you be fully polymorph focussed (into monstrous humanoids, which is rather unique and very cool). If you pick a good for (and with that I mean the awesome looking and outstandingly good despite beign medium Deathsnatcher) it's very strong for combat, but completely looses alchemy (plus bombs).
I hope you're aware that this build isn't actually using polymorphing.
My bad. I meant to specify that I would be using Beast Shape at later levels, especially when it gives me access to magical beasts.
So, wereraptor skinwalker sounds like a good call, and I've heard good things about pairing Spell Discovery with Arcane Strike!
Overall, you think I shouldn't be worrying to much about sneak attack? If that's the case, should I drop vivisectionist and just keep my bombs? They're not useless by any stretch of the imagination, but I didn't plan on making ranged attacks.
So far I've got these Ability Scores: 25 PB- Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 7.
I'm just gonna put it out there, 12 INT on an Alchemist seems bad, especially if you're going to be focusing on STR Mutagens. I know you get less out of INT without Bombs, and won't lose Extracts-per-day with temporary penalties, but you still get more Extracts, and INT is never a bad stat to invest in. Just my 2 cents.
As a Human you could go 16+2=18 STR, and now you've got 7 points to put into other stats, you could do something like 15 INT and 12 WIS with that. Honestly you don't need 18 STR at level 1, especially if you're "more interested in making a monstery fella than I am breaking the game over my knee". You can start with 18 STR if you want, but you don't have to. I wouldn't sacrifice that much INT to do it, especially on a 25 point build.
For feats, I know Power Attack is a must for any strength oriented attacker and I plan on taking that at level 1.
You can't take POWER ATTACK at level 1 as an Alchemist, you need +1 BAB.
Personally I don't think much of Power Attack before +4 BAB; +2 damage is alright, but not likely to make up enough difference to be a killing blow, while the -1 to hit really can make that difference. When you get to +4 BAB the damage difference seems to matter more.
Obviously if you have other feats that you want to take at level 5/7/etc then taking Power Attack early is probably a good idea.
Last thing I can think of for now is that I quite like 1 level of MASTER CHYMIST on a Beastmorph alchemist. A lot of your abilities come from your Mutagen, and while you can use as many Mutagens in a day as you like, you can only have 1 prepared at a time and that 1-hour brew time really stifles the versatility. Having 2 extra Mutagens per day not only lets you use it more often on days without hours-long downtime, but the spontaneous Mutagen also lets you occasionally use DEX or CON Mutagens when the need arises.
More than 1 level of Master Chymist may not be worth much to you, and I certainly wouldn't take more than 1 level before you get Greater Beastform Mutagen, it's way too good.
Personally I don't think much of Power Attack before +4 BAB
Good point! I'll take your advice on that. Same with the ability scores. I was told that 18 Str and 12 int was the best way to do it, since I can afford a +2 and +4 headband of intellect at the exact levels I need them to cast my higher level extractions, but in reality I'm going to be buffing my strength so much that I won't need it.
My gripe now is that Derklord has a point when it comes to the "you're not polymorphing" part. If I invest everything into natural attacks:
- 2 Talons from Skinwalker
- 2 claws and a bite from feral mutagen
- 2 secondary wing attacks from Powerful Wings and the Wings discovery
- A tentacle slap from the Tentacle discovery
- A sting from the Fleshwarped Scorpion Tail Whip
- A gore from a Helm of the Mammoth Lord
All of this will disappear if I cast Beast Shape, and I'll be left with a bear with two claws and a bite. Granted, I'm probably not going to go this far. That's a ridiculous 10 attacks with sneak attack if I'm flanking. There's a point where the amount of dice being rolled will become boring for everyone else. I'll probably stop with just Talons, Claws, a Bite, a Sting, and Wings, since that completes the Manticore look I'm going for. That doesn't change the fact, though, that I'll lose all of it if I decide to cast Beast Shape on myself to ACTUALLY turn into one, which feels omega-bad. I still want to get the fun size bonuses to strength that come from polymorph spells, but I don't know what to do if Enlarge Person is the only one I can use.
I've decided I'll put way less of a focus on natural attacks while not-polymorphed. Just Feral Mutagen up until level 7, in which case I'll retrain it and cast Beast Shape on myself from then on. That way I'm not spoiling anyone else's fun with way too many dice, and I can turn into animals and monsters!
I've decided I'll put way less of a focus on natural attacks while not-polymorphed. Just Feral Mutagen up until level 7, in which case I'll retrain it and cast Beast Shape on myself from then on. That way I'm not spoiling anyone else's fun with way too many dice, and I can turn into animals and monsters!
Why retrain it? As a Beastmorph you're still getting a bunch of goodies, and they also won't stack while Polymorphed. Just because you have other options doesn't make that one a bad option.
That doesn't change the fact, though, that I'll lose all of it if I decide to cast Beast Shape on myself to ACTUALLY turn into one, which feels omega-bad.
Yeah, that was why I presume you wouldn't do that. You really don't need that many natural attacks, but even just race + mutagen make you better in natural form than polymorphed, and the by far biggest benefit of polymorphing (getting Pounce) is completely redundant due to the Beastmorph archetype.
If you want to play a polymorph-centric character, I would take a class or archetype that focusses on that: Druid, Shifter, Metamorph Alchemist, Beastkin Berserker or Mooncursed Barbarian, Feral Hunter.
On a different note, the Beast Shape line completely pales in comparison to the Monstrous Physique line. The latter lets you speak, use extracts, keep your armor, and gives you more attacks, while the former, er... doesn't. I don't actually see anthing that BS grants you that MP doesn't.
2 secondary wing attacks from Powerful Wings and the Wings discovery
A tentacle slap from the Tentacle discovery
Powerful Wings is only for Strix and (with GM allowance) "creatures with natural wings" - your wings aren't natural. The tentacle discovery says it "does not give the alchemist any extra attacks", so you couldn't add it to a full attack.
Overall, you think I shouldn't be worrying to much about sneak attack? If that's the case, should I drop vivisectionist and just keep my bombs? They're not useless by any stretch of the imagination, but I didn't plan on making ranged attacks.
It kinda depends on your vision of the character. A ranged option is never bad to have, although you have in-class flight at 7th level, so unreachable enemies aren't usually a thing at that point. As to Sneak Attack, it's not useless or anything, especially against boss fights. I just wouldn't invest into it, as the situations where it's most useful you can probably trigger it via flanking, because the targets you handle solo usually don't survive getting pounced with 5+ primary attacks, anyway. You can also use Greater Invisibility to trigger it, if the opponent doesn't have magical vision.
Why retrain it? As a Beastmorph you're still getting a bunch of goodies, and they also won't stack while Polymorphed. Just because you have other options doesn't make that one a bad option.
Because how would you justify casting a spell that makes you worse? The issue also exists with retraining (why would you retrain stuff away to later use a weaker imitation?), but I would have a really hard time playing a character that sees a party member deliberately weaken themself in a (for my character) life-or-death situation. "Oh, you're fighting a undead abomination that whats to kill you, eat your guts, and animate your lifeless husk? Let me waste a whole turn to shut down my five attacks, lose my armor, my ability to speak, and my ability to use extracts, to turn into some creature with three attacks - because I want to be monstrous!"
While I do think betraying ones party members makes one a monster, I don't think that was the character concept...
The point of retraining Feral Mutafen is that Feral Mutagen gives 3 attacks, pretty much every beast also has 3 attacks. Once I get Beast Shape and the other polymorph spells, there’s no need for Feral Mutagen, so I can swap it out. In case you haven’t noticed, I said I’m not going to go all in on natural attacks in my base form anymore, because that’s not fun for everyone else , and I want to focus on polymorphing. The beastmorph isn’t terrible in this case because I can apply pounce to monsters that would otherwise not have it. At this point, of course, none of this is OPTIMAL, but I went into this knowing that Viv+Beast is already OP and that I’m not taking any skin off anyone’s back by doing it in a less-meta way. Calling that “betraying my party” is toxic as all hell.
Sorry the point of that question wasn't clear .
Why go Beastmorph if you're not going to use your Mutagen?
If you ARE using your Mutagen then the Natural Attacks seem like a good option to have, so why retrain them?
But if you have a good answer to that then yeah that's fine.
As to Vivisectionist: You can retrain it if you like.
Bombs are a decent ranged option that requires no investment whatsoever, so if that sounds good then go for it. With a very small amount of investment Bombs can be a VERY good backup ranged weapon.
Sneak Attack is bonus damage that you will sometimes get - and the Vivisectionist might be the best at utilizing it since you get Greater Invisibility at level 10 .
Whatever suits your concept better, they're both good.
Bombs are a decent ranged option that requires no investment whatsoever, so if that sounds good then go for it. With a very small amount of investment Bombs can be a VERY good backup ranged weapon.
Sneak Attack is bonus damage that you will sometimes get - and the Vivisectionist might be the best at utilizing it since you get Greater Invisibility at level 10 .
Whatever suits your concept better, they're both good.
The plan is to stack mutagen and polymorph at the same time for mega strength, which is loads of fun. The abilities that beastmorph mutagen gives you still function while poly’d, which can lead to fun combinations. That gets the whole “chimera” aspect I was hoping for. Well, that and the fact that I can turn into a literal chimera!
You bring up a good point about the bombs. I do need a backup, and the sneak attack isn’t a constant guarantee, so it might be better to skip on vivisectionist. Though, I think I might not have a problem with running out of polymorphs and therefore losing my natural weapons. The simple solution is to spend money crafting potions, and then using Alchemical Allocation to make those potions last forever!
Thanks for the helpful tips.
At this point, of course, none of this is OPTIMAL, but I went into this knowing that Viv+Beast is already OP and that I’m not taking any skin off anyone’s back by doing it in a less-meta way. Calling that “betraying my party” is toxic as all hell.
- Whoa, whoa, no need to get defensive here. The betraying the party bit was strictly in-universe, about what your character does and not how it's build. I wasn't calling you out or anything!
My post was meant as a warning not to build a character that is impossible to justify in-universe. If the other PCs have already seen your PC be good in natural form, polymorphing into something weaker either produces inner-party conflict, or forces the other players to not act in-character, as your character cares more about some quirk than about best helping the party members.
Do you have an ingame justification why your character wouldn't keep Feral Mutagen, and use other extracts for combat, e.g. Greater Invisibility instead of Beast Shape II?
In case you haven’t noticed, I said I’m not going to go all in on natural attacks in my base form anymore
There's a difference between "not going all in" and "not investing anything". I assumed you'd keep your race.
I issue is that Beast Shape is just not good on your character, which makes it hard to justify using it. Say you're 10th level and have an active Feral Mutagen. When pouncing an average CR10 enemy, your damage would be virtually the same if you'd use an elixier of Enlarge Person compared to using an Elixier of Beast Shape II to turn into a Dire Bear. That's without natural weapons from your race, and presuming the polymorph doesn't shut down any of the Beastform Mutagen abilities, which is somewhat questionable for when you use the mutagen first.