Now that Secrets of Magic is out and we finally have Class Archetypes, we can see how they work in more detail. They fully replace existing features, come with the required dedication feat, may come with additional unique feats, and seem to be largely sidegrades rather than upgrades.
Seeing as how Class Archetypes are sidegrades, already use your second-level feat (most of which remove some sort of limiter on the Class Archetype features), and are inherently exclusive from one another, is it really necessary to give the dedication feats the typical "Dedication Clause"? By "Dedication Clause", I mean: "Special: You cannot select another dedication feat until you have gained two other feats from the X archetype."
It seems rather strange to restrict Class Archetype characters from additional archetypes for the following reasons:
1) Class Archetypes are ostensibly sidegrades. There is no additional power to them, so balance shouldn't be a concern. Only individually problematic Class Archetypes would be a concern, but restricting those this way also means restricting weaker Class Archetypes.
2) You cannot "dip" into a Class Archetype since it fundamentally changes how a class works. One of the reasons the dedication clause exists is to prevent dipping into an archetype for a single or two-feat power boost.
3) The differences between Class Archetypes and typical Archetypes are enough where further differentiation wouldn't be any more confusing (and possibly less confusing)
Between these three reasons, it seems unnecessarily restrictive to include the dedication clause, especially when one of the archetypes (Spellshot in GnG) has a special qualifier that lets it take other specific archetypes, which may or may not be expanded in the future. This can result in thematically sensible archetypes not actually qualifying because the designers forgot to include the asterisk.
On a related note, there is a Class Archetype without the dedication clause already, and that is because it introduces no unique feats.
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On a related but separate note, this can call into question the need for the "feat tax" to begin with, but that is outside the scope of this discussion.
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You just want to stack ancient elf with an class archetype don’t you?
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Malfinn Eurilios wrote: You just want to stack ancient elf with an class archetype don’t you? No, I just think the current system will create issues in the future when more content arises and goes against the more modular philosophy of 2e in general. This was an issue in 1e, where similar concepts just couldn't interact because Feat X was made specifically to work with Feat Y, but not with Class Feature Z which works almost identically to Feat X.
Cutting down on that sort of thing was one of the major benefits of the more modular system, particularly archetypes.
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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Sometimes maybe they should, sometimes not.
For instance, Flexible Caster is one feat, a dedication, and just gives back the cantrips it took away at lvl 1! That one should really just be a choice.
Spellshot for gunslinger should probably just be another way instead of being an Archetype. The dedication on that feat does nothing but save you a copper sometimes (literally) so it should just be a choice.
I see some balance between them.
1) Dedications allow a character to take stuff from the entire class, while archetype are specific alternatives which point toward a specific direction
For example, it's the difference between
- fighter dedication
and
- Archer
- Mauler
- Dual-Weapon Warrior
- etc...
archetype.
2) With an Archetype, you can get specific feats and at a lower level
For example, to take the quick shield block feat you'd need to:
- Fighter Dedication ( lvl 2 )
- Basic Maneuver ( lvl 4 )
- Advanced Maneuver [Quick Shield Block] ( lvl 16 )
or
- Bastion Dedication ( lvl 2 )
- Quick Shield Block ( lvl 10 )
3) Some archetypes allow the character to "also" take skill feats, which count towards the class feat needed in order to take a second dedication or archetype
This doesn't work with all archetype, that's true, but it's something meant to be mentioned since it's gamechanging when it comes to skill/feats and building a character
4) Archetypes first feat tend to be "better" than their dedication counterpart
This is on me, so it's subjective, but I find more appealing expending a class feat to get stuff like
Quote: You become trained in all simple and martial weapons in the bow weapon group. Whenever you gain a class feature that grants you expert or greater proficiency in certain weapons, you also gain that proficiency rank in all simple and martial weapons in the bow weapon group. If you are at least an expert in the bow you are using, you gain access to the critical specialization effect with that bow. From the archer archetype, rather than
Quote: You become trained in simple weapons and martial weapons. You become trained in your choice of Acrobatics or Athletics; if you are already trained in both of these skills, you instead become trained in a skill of your choice. You become trained in fighter class DC. This is not true 100% of the times, but I tend to prefer archetypes rather than the "dedication" first feat ( like "fighter" or "monk" dedication, to make an example ).
...
I feel that either dedications and archetypes have pros and cons on the short, medium and long go.
PS: I am talking about CRB with no variant rules, so no FA or similar stuff.
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HumbleGamer wrote: I see some balance between them.
1) Dedications allow a character to take stuff from the entire class, while archetype are specific alternatives which point toward a specific direction
For example, it's the difference between
- fighter dedication
and
- Archer
- Mauler
- Dual-Weapon Warrior
- etc...
archetype.
2) With an Archetype, you can get specific feats and at a lower level
For example, to take the quick shield block feat you'd need to:
- Fighter Dedication ( lvl 2 )
- Basic Maneuver ( lvl 4 )
- Advanced Maneuver [Quick Shield Block] ( lvl 16 )
or
- Bastion Dedication ( lvl 2 )
- Quick Shield Block ( lvl 10 )
3) Some archetypes allow the character to "also" take skill feats, which count towards the class feat needed in order to take a second dedication or archetype
This doesn't work with all archetype, that's true, but it's something meant to be mentioned since it's gamechanging when it comes to skill/feats and building a character
4) Archetypes first feat tend to be "better" than their dedication counterpart
This is on me, so it's subjective, but I find more appealing expending a class feat to get stuff like
Quote: You become trained in all simple and martial weapons in the bow weapon group. Whenever you gain a class feature that grants you expert or greater proficiency in certain weapons, you also gain that proficiency rank in all simple and martial weapons in the bow weapon group. If you are at least an expert in the bow you are using, you gain access to the critical specialization effect with that bow. From the archer archetype, rather than
Quote: You become trained in simple weapons and martial weapons. You become trained in your choice of Acrobatics or Athletics; if you are already trained in both of these skills, you instead become trained in a skill of your choice. You become trained in fighter class DC. This is not true 100% of the times, but I tend to prefer archetypes rather than the...
Flexible spell caster actual took the place of two higher level feets I had planned on my witch. So no feat tax it was a feat discount.
HumbleGamer wrote: I see some balance between them.
1) Dedications allow a character to take stuff from the entire class, while archetype are specific alternatives which point toward a specific direction
For example, it's the difference between
- fighter dedication
and
- Archer
- Mauler
- Dual-Weapon Warrior
- etc...
archetype.
2) With an Archetype, you can get specific feats and at a lower level
For example, to take the quick shield block feat you'd need to:
- Fighter Dedication ( lvl 2 )
- Basic Maneuver ( lvl 4 )
- Advanced Maneuver [Quick Shield Block] ( lvl 16 )
or
- Bastion Dedication ( lvl 2 )
- Quick Shield Block ( lvl 10 )
3) Some archetypes allow the character to "also" take skill feats, which count towards the class feat needed in order to take a second dedication or archetype
This doesn't work with all archetype, that's true, but it's something meant to be mentioned since it's gamechanging when it comes to skill/feats and building a character
4) Archetypes first feat tend to be "better" than their dedication counterpart
This is on me, so it's subjective, but I find more appealing expending a class feat to get stuff like
Quote: You become trained in all simple and martial weapons in the bow weapon group. Whenever you gain a class feature that grants you expert or greater proficiency in certain weapons, you also gain that proficiency rank in all simple and martial weapons in the bow weapon group. If you are at least an expert in the bow you are using, you gain access to the critical specialization effect with that bow. From the archer archetype, rather than
Quote: You become trained in simple weapons and martial weapons. You become trained in your choice of Acrobatics or Athletics; if you are already trained in both of these skills, you instead become trained in a skill of your choice. You become trained in fighter class DC. This is not true 100% of the times, but I tend to prefer archetypes rather than the...
The issue arises when the pros of the dedication clause aren't relevant for Class Archetypes because of the previously listed reasons.
No dipping, already being tied to a specific class(es), must be chosen during first character creation and can't be taken later on, etc.
Malfinn Eurilios wrote: Flexible spell caster actual took the place of two higher level feets I had planned on my witch. So no feat tax it was a feat discount. Isn't it just "the exception"?
Elementalist, Geomancer and Runelord have the standard requirements.
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HumbleGamer wrote: Malfinn Eurilios wrote: Flexible spell caster actual took the place of two higher level feets I had planned on my witch. So no feat tax it was a feat discount. Isn't it just "the exception"?
Elementalist, Geomancer and Runelord have the standard requirements. Flexible Caster does have the initial feat tax but it notably does not have the dedication clause (and couldn't anyways since it has no additional feats)
Golurkcanfly wrote: HumbleGamer wrote: Malfinn Eurilios wrote: Flexible spell caster actual took the place of two higher level feets I had planned on my witch. So no feat tax it was a feat discount. Isn't it just "the exception"?
Elementalist, Geomancer and Runelord have the standard requirements. Flexible Caster does have the initial feat tax but it notably does not have the dedication clause (and couldn't anyways since it has no additional feats) Yeah, that's what I meant.
It's the exception ( since it has no additional feats, you are not tied to the normal "take 2 feats before getting a new dedication/archetype" rules ).
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It seems unnecessary and weirdly prohibitive.
General impression I got is that Paizo is worried about class archetypes so they made them kind of conservatively.
HumbleGamer wrote: Malfinn Eurilios wrote: Flexible spell caster actual took the place of two higher level feets I had planned on my witch. So no feat tax it was a feat discount. Isn't it just "the exception"?
Elementalist, Geomancer and Runelord have the standard requirements. Maybe but, both of those class archetypes are more extensive, and have a bigger effect on your class as well.
Squiggit wrote: It seems unnecessary and weirdly prohibitive.
General impression I got is that Paizo is worried about class archetypes so they made them kind of conservatively.
Part of it just might be that they shoehorned themselves into it with how they described Class Archetypes in the CRB.
Wouldn't doubt if they considered making them not Archetypes at all since they're like weird hybrids of classic Replacement Class Features, 1e Archetypes, and 2e Archetypes.
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My first impression is that Paizo wishes to lighten the future workload of designers by avoiding builds that just add variants and variants and variants. Because the complexity of interactions increases exponentially and not linearly.
I might amend my assessment after reading more about class archetypes.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
So, as I understand it, the class archetype dedication takes up the level 2 feat slot. I wonder if under free archetype rules, do you get an extra archetype slot, or does the class archetype take up that slot and you get your class feat slot back for a class feat? This also brings up the issue of ancient elf. I would assume the previous, as most dedications have the 2 feat stipulation (with the flexible caster as a noted exception).
Parry wrote: So, as I understand it, the class archetype dedication takes up the level 2 feat slot. I wonder if under free archetype rules, do you get an extra archetype slot, or does the class archetype take up that slot and you get your class feat slot back for a class feat? This also brings up the issue of ancient elf. I would assume the previous, as most dedications have the 2 feat stipulation (with the flexible caster as a noted exception). It would always be the same.
Before unlocking a second one, you'd have to end your first one.
There already have been attempts to exploit the ancient elf + eldritch trickster, so I won't worry about this specific one more than I did with the other.
I actually ran into a weird case where the dedicationnclause caused issues. I was working on an enchantment runelord who was a socialite and courtesan, and used their magic and charm to manipulate the courts. Dandy was an excellent fit for theme, but the dedication clause on runelord made it really weird to take
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Parry wrote: So, as I understand it, the class archetype dedication takes up the level 2 feat slot. I wonder if under free archetype rules, do you get an extra archetype slot, or does the class archetype take up that slot and you get your class feat slot back for a class feat? This also brings up the issue of ancient elf. I would assume the previous, as most dedications have the 2 feat stipulation (with the flexible caster as a noted exception). I see no problem to a class archetype dedication feat able to be used in free archetype rules.
About ancient elf and human multitalented feat there's no issue with them. It's just the people that just usually don't notice that they work only with multiclass dedication, they cannot be used to others archetype dedications.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
YuriP wrote:
About ancient elf and human multitalented feat there's no issue with them. It's just the people that just usually don't notice that they work only with multiclass dedication, they cannot be used to others archetype dedications. Great point. I often forget myself.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Parry wrote: YuriP wrote:
About ancient elf and human multitalented feat there's no issue with them. It's just the people that just usually don't notice that they work only with multiclass dedication, they cannot be used to others archetype dedications. Great point. I often forget myself. Replying to myself because edit broke.
FA and class archetype further interaction: do we assume that you basically get 2 class feats at 4 and 6? Cab you take 2 class archetypes feats at 4 (if they are available) to qualify to pay for the dedication investment?
Parry wrote: Parry wrote: YuriP wrote:
About ancient elf and human multitalented feat there's no issue with them. It's just the people that just usually don't notice that they work only with multiclass dedication, they cannot be used to others archetype dedications. Great point. I often forget myself. Replying to myself because edit broke.
FA and class archetype further interaction: do we assume that you basically get 2 class feats at 4 and 6? Cab you take 2 class archetypes feats at 4 (if they are available) to qualify to pay for the dedication investment? If FA means free archetype, then you you could use your free archetype feat and your class feat at 4th to take two. In fact, you can do so without the free archetype if one feats is a skill feat and you get a skill feat that level.
I believe there is nothing in the RAW that prevents you from taking a feat from your free archetype for your 4th level Class feat.
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The Raven Black wrote: I believe there is nothing in the RAW that prevents you from taking a feat from your free archetype for your 4th level Class feat. There's nothing that prevents this, yes.
There's nothing that prevents you from using an archetype skill feat as well and grabbing a second dedication at 4 either.
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I don't think it was a copy/paste error that put the limitation on the dedication feat for class archetypes. Flexible Spellcaster doesn't have it, so there is precedent. Other class feats in the future may not have it either. Even ones that do actually have other archetype feats available.
Alchemic_Genius wrote: I actually ran into a weird case where the dedicationnclause caused issues. I was working on an enchantment runelord who was a socialite and courtesan, and used their magic and charm to manipulate the courts. Dandy was an excellent fit for theme, but the dedication clause on runelord made it really weird to take How so? From what I'm looking at you should still be able to get into Dandy by level 4, which is slightly later but not to a ridiculous degree.
Perpdepog wrote: Alchemic_Genius wrote: I actually ran into a weird case where the dedicationnclause caused issues. I was working on an enchantment runelord who was a socialite and courtesan, and used their magic and charm to manipulate the courts. Dandy was an excellent fit for theme, but the dedication clause on runelord made it really weird to take How so? From what I'm looking at you should still be able to get into Dandy by level 4, which is slightly later but not to a ridiculous degree. If it was just the feat tax, that would be the case.
However, the dedication clause which states that you cannot take another dedication until you've spent two more feats means you can't get the Dandy Archetype until Level 8.
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Golurkcanfly wrote: Perpdepog wrote: Alchemic_Genius wrote: I actually ran into a weird case where the dedicationnclause caused issues. I was working on an enchantment runelord who was a socialite and courtesan, and used their magic and charm to manipulate the courts. Dandy was an excellent fit for theme, but the dedication clause on runelord made it really weird to take How so? From what I'm looking at you should still be able to get into Dandy by level 4, which is slightly later but not to a ridiculous degree. If it was just the feat tax, that would be the case.
However, the dedication clause which states that you cannot take another dedication until you've spent two more feats means you can't get the Dandy Archetype until Level 8. You can take Embed Aeon Stone as an archetype skill feat at 2 or 4, thus allowing you to take another dedication at 6.
Interesting that the Runelord version of Tattoo Artist doesn't have the archetype tag, but it does say it's from the archetype. If it counts you can take it at 2 or 4, and take another dedication at 4.
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From what I'm seeing Tattoo Artist and Embed Aeon Stone are both skill feats, so you choose one at the same time you enter into the archetype, and then pick the second at level 4, freeing your class feat up to enter into Dandy.
Perpdepog wrote: Alchemic_Genius wrote: I actually ran into a weird case where the dedicationnclause caused issues. I was working on an enchantment runelord who was a socialite and courtesan, and used their magic and charm to manipulate the courts. Dandy was an excellent fit for theme, but the dedication clause on runelord made it really weird to take How so? From what I'm looking at you should still be able to get into Dandy by level 4, which is slightly later but not to a ridiculous degree. It's largely the feat tax. Embed aeon stone is okay (actually pretty handy for an infiltrator, just a dead pick at it's level), and tattoo artist is so limited in scope (at the moment) that it's only purpose is to meet the prerequisites. Skill feats are actually something I want of the character for flavor and function; Streetwise, Courtly Graces, and Contacts are all things that really assist playing a base wizard as a face and match up well on theme.
Runelord is a weird spot since it really has no early level picks that actually help at early level, as there are no low level tattoos, and very few low level aeon stones. I honestly wouldn't mind as much of it basically meant that I spent my first four levels essentially not benefitting from any feat I picked up
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