Con vs Dex on casters

[Onkonk]

I saw this video posted on reddit and I thought it was really interesting. Often when building squishy casters (wizard, witch, cloistered cleric, etc...) you'll have to choose between getting a high Dex or a high Con when building defences as you can't get Dex capped (unless investing with feats later).

The conclusions made in the video are that AC has a less valuable effect if you don't have much of it and Con has a greater effect while you have not a lot of health. While this may seem obvious I often see people trying to get as much Dex as possible on these squishy casters which may not be as much effective health than starting with more Con instead.

[The Raven Black]

Given the importance of the die roll, I prefer not to be hit/crit. And unarmored casters can use Drakeheart Mutagen to great effect. Which is DEX 14 BTW, so pretty compatible with some CON.

[SuperBidi]

It's better to increase Con on squishier casters. You will have similar durability against AC targetting enemies, but you'll also benefit from higher hit points against non-AC targetting enemies.
Also, most of the time, you don't want your Wizard to "tank" enemies for multiple rounds. You just want them to survive until they can get away, which is more in line with high Constitution.

[Deriven Firelion]

I don't understand why you need to choose in PF2. With 4 ability boosts every five levels and the ability to start with a 12 minimum, everyone should reach an 18 Dex and Con unless you really want to to focus on another statistic.

Dexterity is a high value statistic for other than AC. Dexterity applies to reflex saves, which can be brutal on critical fails at higher level. It applies to Stealth and Acrobatics. Stealth increases the value of being invisible as perception checks to find you key off Stealth. Acrobatics provides a skill you can build up to use for escape actions.

Stealth can also replace Perception for initiative and be built up to Legendary. Perception can only be boosted to master at best.

Con main applications are fort saves and hit points. Valuable, but I don't think as valuable as dexterity.

Then again I shoot for Dex and Con starting at 12 at least, and try to get Dex to 14.

[Onkonk]

Deriven Firelion wrote:

I don't understand why you need to choose in PF2. With 4 ability boosts every five levels and the ability to start with a 12 minimum, everyone should reach an 18 Dex and Con unless you really want to to focus on another statistic.

I do agree both are valuable and one shouldn't be left in the dust. But if you start with both 12 dex and con it seems that you choose neither at level 1 at least. It's not very hard to get 14 in a stat and even 16 is possible for a secondary one.

A sorcerer might choose between starting with

16 con/ 12 dex
14 con/ 14 dex
12 con/ 16 dex

or perhaps on of these even lower to get more wisdom.

[SuperBidi]

Deriven Firelion wrote:

I don't understand why you need to choose in PF2. With 4 ability boosts every five levels and the ability to start with a 12 minimum, everyone should reach an 18 Dex and Con unless you really want to to focus on another statistic.

Dexterity is a high value statistic for other than AC. Dexterity applies to reflex saves, which can be brutal on critical fails at higher level. It applies to Stealth and Acrobatics. Stealth increases the value of being invisible as perception checks to find you key off Stealth. Acrobatics provides a skill you can build up to use for escape actions.

Stealth can also replace Perception for initiative and be built up to Legendary. Perception can only be boosted to master at best.

Con main applications are fort saves and hit points. Valuable, but I don't think as valuable as dexterity.

Then again I shoot for Dex and Con starting at 12 at least, and try to get Dex to 14.

It's more of a low level issue. At level 10, both attributes should be at 16-18 and the difference will be negligeable. But high level casters tend to have higher survivability than low level caster.

At low level, the choice between higher Con or higher Dex is a pretty big one. When most enemies can put you down in 2 hits, every increase in survivability is important.

[HumbleGamer]

I'd say it's on the caster, but I'd prefer dex

Fortitude stuff is more short/medium range, while reflex/will stuff is also medium/long range.

Being albe to suceed a reflex save ( as a will save ) is better than having more hp. A good amount of dex can also be used to stealth and acrobatics checks.

This doesn't mean a a caster ( assuming the caster is going to stay back ) wouldn't invest into const, but maybe not as a primary stat.

Being able to invest into int, char, wis and dex/con is imo pretty easy with 4 stats increments, and even if having 6 more hp by lvl 6 is not going to do all the job, if may give you enough hp to survive ( but so could do a high dex on a reflex save or transforming a critical hit into a hit ).

[YuriP]

I prefer Dex for low level games and Con for high level games.

Dex makes a big diference in low level games because it helps to diminish the critical rate and extra HP from Con still don't make a significant diference. But in high levels this changes. I may easily compensate the lack of dex in AC with an archetype and the extra HP from Con will be multiplied by your level turning in something interesting.

Also you can have the both high just choosing an ancestry based in one of these stats. Ex.:
- A dwarf cleric/druid can have 16 in both dex and con if it don't care about having 1 less divine font daily usage in case of clerics.
- A gnome/goblin/azarketi/catfolk/grippli sorcerer/oracle/summoner can have 16 in both dex and con without problems.
- A halfling/leshy/consaru cleric/druid can have 16 in both dex and con.
- A hobgoblin/ratfolk/android/sprite wizard/witch can have 16 in both dex and con.

[aobst128]

Getting access to armor through general feats early on can be a consideration, studded leather will go a long way to protect casters.

[egindar]

I wish he'd focused more on the cases for which this analysis matters. The vast majority of the legwork done here mainly applies to unarmored casters (and for your starting array in particular, rather than ability boosts later on), which he mentions briefly at the end, but the bulk of the video implies that this is a universal problem. Anyone with armor proficiencies just has to worry about their Dex cap and not dump Str. Even unarmored casters can grab proficiencies through general or archetype feats relatively easily, and chain armor lets you largely ignore the Str req.

Another thing that bothered me a bit was using HP as the metric; going from 20 HP to 24 HP isn't going to matter if the enemy does 9 damage, because you go down in 3 hits either way (although since enemies do variable damage, a better example might be 2d4+10 for 2 hits either way).

I don't think it's that you can't make claims about which is better to boost, but the video felt very myopic to me in how it handled the issue.

[pauljathome]

SuperBidi wrote:

At low level, the choice between higher Con or higher Dex is a pretty big one.

I pick both. Grab a race that dumps a stat you don't care about and lets you increase con and your casting stat. Gnomes rock in many cases.

Dex/con both being at least 14 (usually with 1 at 16) together with your casting stat of 18 and a wisdom of at least 12 is very achievable at level 1. Let your AC lag a little and a squishy is usually ok until they get it up (by level 3 if you're lucky, by level 5 in extreme cases)

[Dubious Scholar]

aobst128 wrote:

Getting access to armor through general feats early on can be a consideration, studded leather will go a long way to protect casters.

Chain shirt is probably better, as you don't take the -1 to athletics and acrobatics if you're at 10 strength (which is very likely on a caster)

[Ascalaphus]

I think ignoring strength is actually fairly viable as a caster. Getting an extra point of AC at the cost of a small penalty on Dex/Str skills is mostly a good trade. By level 5 when your Dex goes up and you can switch to lighter armor, the penalty might go away entirely.

[HumbleGamer]

I'd also consider a full plate and 10 str + ant haul and longstrider ( champion dedication, for example).