But as you said this you depend in how the GM will interpret the exploration mode/minion quandary.
As greystone said above "I think that there might be a worry for them: they (Paizo) don't want that level 1 feat to do the job of another character that might be built to steal and gather info." so it's easy to a GM to interpret that creative exploration usages are too OP to a familiar do and don't allow. Others GM will simply don't care about. Myself put this in middle term, if the familiar as independent and speech/Touch Telepathy what would me them useless for others things unless they have at last 4 abilities. So as I give independent freely to all animal companions and familiars in my games this isn't so big problem.
I've generally found that letting independent give a straight up extra tactic is a little bad for gameplay, not really from a balance standpoint, but from an adding extra time one. (Although a psuedo permanent +1 to party initiative is actually pretty powerful for a level 1 feat).
I ended up settling with a more limited version, where a familiar owner can use their tactic to make their familiar excute a tactic while the rested (to refocus, get first aided, etc), or the familiar aids the PCs tactic with their abilities (so like a familiar with scent would allow the PC to track someone by scent because the familiar is scent tracking while the PC looks for visual cues, a stong familiar master could have the familiar slip in to some rubble and give aid to a trapped person in their while the master dug out the rubble with althletics, etc)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
IMO, the paradigm of a familiar scouting vs a PC scouting are fundamentally different. A PC does it by not being noticeable. A familiar does it by not being notable. PCs can also survive if something attacks them, pick a lock, and so on.Yes, this was the point I was going for: a PC has a better chance to survive an attack while a familiar is less likely to get attacked, a PC can pick a lock while a familiar might be able to squeeze through bars/fly through a chimney/dig under a door/ect. They can accomplishing the same thing, just getting there in a different way.
Also, is it just me, or does it seem like people scout less these days?I think it has to do with PC's being less able survive an encounter alone if things go south. You can scout, go around a corner and find something 3 levels higher than you that moves twice your speed, crits on a 16, hits on a 6, has reach and a AoO... I'd be paranoid to head out scouting alone too: you're betting a lot on your Sneak not rolling a 1 and/or the baddies not rolling a 20. It's not like the old days where you can build to pre-win most skill rolls you focus on. ;)
And that alone makes giving familiars the ability to scout without needing commands pretty powerful: if you send out a familiar and it doesn't come back you just lose a week of downtime while a PC that doesn't come back is more of a problem.
The risks are real, but the rewards can be pretty high. Spotting a creature and reporting back let's players roll awhile bunch of knowledge checks to identify it, strategize, pre-buff, and maybe even set some snares. Snares can be horrifically powerful in the rare circumstances you get to use them-- a good choke point and a big enemy can lead to things just being deleted from play.
I've seen 3 fights with purple worms. The first the party was taken by surprise and fled in terror, nearly losing the monk in the process. The other two they found a sleeping worm with a scout and managed to win both encounters without getting hit once.
I also think this edition has a few things going for it that really help scouting, but they are commonly overlooked.
1)Terrain Stalker is an amazing feat if you can figure out which one to take.
2) Rolling against a DC instead an opposed roll stabilizes the math and make it way easier to not get spotted by groups. Even with an amazing bonus, you couldn't control for rolling a Nat 1 and/or one of the six mooks rolling a 20.
3) Avoiding Notice necessitates using cover. If you're peeking around corners before you move around them, you're pretty much always going to have a +2-4 circumstance bonus.
4) Dark vision no longer having a range means you can potentially spot enemies before you're on top of them. The reverse is true as well, but if initiative is rolled from far away it improves your odds of escape.
I've yet to see a PC die to scouting. I've seen them have some close calls and harrowing escapes, but those themselves are exciting and the rewards on a success are super high.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Do people not use chase rules? If your spotted, that's a GREAT time to pull out a chase. Not every hostile situation has to directly be combat
As Graystone says: I've never seen anyone scouting when there was a decent chance for the PC to be discovered and killed. Never split the party.
Scouting has always been a lousy ability, in my opinion. Unless you were scouting through proxies (Familiars, magic), it was far too dangerous to be worth it.
I agree with you but this also show how the familiars are subpar. Even using them as proxie scouts this still too risk and too out of the rules making their usage as scouts at last questionable.
Imagine a situation where a GM allows a player to use it's familiar to scout far from the party. The familiar have only 5 HP/LvL and is unable to fight. The game don't says nothing about exploration usage of familiars and alone encounters, so if while scouting your familiar is detected by a monster how this encounter would work? How many actions this familiar is able to use? 1-action like independent? 2-actions like minion? 3-actions like a normal PC? We don't know. Probably if it was detected by monsters, alone with less than 3-action it will surfer a certain death! Even if the GM allows the usage of 3-actions too run it's still hard to this familiar to survive and run alone with so low HP.
So is it acceptable for players and for flavor sent a familiar alone to a certain death? This is what increase for me the impression of how familiar are so subpar. It's no only the limitation of not fight and not activate things but also the fact the in encounters they are no more useful than a battery module. It's a complety destruction of a familiar concept. Also for similar costs the Animal Companion are for more useful. Even saying this is because the player need to use more feats to improve it while the game progress and that the familiar abilities haven't level requirements, in practice this don't make any diference. In the end the familiars still no more useful than mobile killable batteries you may try to add some more utilitie for it but you probably will critical fail doing this.
Now it's the summoner's eidolon's role.
Sneak, sneak, sneak... oh my, i got caught between 10 enemies and a mortal trap.
Unmanifest.
Yeap. In the end only eidolon is really qualified to do the scout job safely. You still have to invest in Unfetter Eidolon feat to improve the distance but still worth.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Chase rules are neat, but work better as a set piece you come up with ahead of time instead of something you come up with on the fly. Especially because scouting ahead doesn't usually mean THAT far ahead. The ideal distance is "far enough away to where the rest of the party doesn't have to roll stealth checks, but within shouting distance so we can rush in if the scout gets in trouble." Which isn't really enough room for multiple chase challenges, even if you could improvise them.
At least, that's my impression. I haven't messed around with them that much, maybe it is easy to adlib.
so if while scouting your familiar is detected by a monster how this encounter would work? How many actions this familiar is able to use? 1-action like independent? 2-actions like minion? 3-actions like a normal PC? We don't know. Probably if it was detected by monsters, alone with less than 3-action it will surfer a certain death! Even if the GM allows the usage of 3-actions too run it's
The assumption you're making is that a familiar will be attacked as soon as someone sees it. Which will be true for some creatures, like certain kinds of predators. Though with flight, you're familiar can often just stay out of reach of those creatures, and others might not bother with such a small meal.
Meanwhile, a human sentry on guard tower probably isn't shooting every bird he sees. A lizard, a rat, or an insect scuttling around a cave is not cause for alarm. That is what I meant when I said there's a difference between being noticed and notable. Even the familiar fails the stealth check, there are much lower odds them being attacked.
Also, for the witch, losing the familiar is no big deal. It just pops back into existence the next morning.
Yes but you still don't know if in the next door there aren't a predator, an undead, an aberration or any other kind of creature that simply try to eat or destroy any creature it sees and sometimes this creature could be also inteligent humanoids.
The risk keeps the same. And even for witch losing a familiar could be strange in flavor. This reminds me the jokes about sent it to a trap or using it as ration! 🤣
1)Terrain Stalker is an amazing feat if you can figure out which one to take.
2) Rolling against a DC instead an opposed roll stabilizes the math and make it way easier to not get spotted by groups. Even with an amazing bonus, you couldn't control for rolling a Nat 1 and/or one of the six mooks rolling a 20.
3) Avoiding Notice necessitates using cover. If you're peeking around corners before you move around them, you're pretty much always going to have a +2-4 circumstance bonus.
4) Dark vision no longer having a range means you can potentially spot enemies before you're on top of them. The reverse is true as well, but if initiative is rolled from far away it improves your odds of escape.
#1 Terrain Stalker is nice IF you can find a LOT of one specific type of difficult terrain that just so happens to go in the direction you need it to: otherwise you wasted a feat. I find it too niche to be of much use outside a very narrow set of adventures that are limited to area where such terrain's are common and even then it might not work [say you're in the frozen tundra so you pick snow but it's useless when you scout an ice cave].
#2 Sure as long as your foe doesn't actively search. You trip over a foe and it's not uncommon to enter encounter mode: again, if you scout anywhere that isn't a wide open space and you might end up on top of something without much warning.
#3 Sure bonuses are nice but then you factor in some monsters numbers are way better than yours to start off and the inevitability of eventually rolling bad and... It still sounds like a recipe for a beatdown. Maybe not this time, and maybe not the next but it'll be coming if you keep scouting.
#4 This assumes WIDE open areas, the kind that in all honesty you don't need to scout most times as the whole party can see it: if you're going down short hallways [40'] and peeking in rooms [20'x20'], being able to see 400' away does you no good.
So if you're scouting out an empty football stadium that has the ground covered in deep snow, sure you MIGHT be able to scout easily but the average dungeon crawl? So I don't think they are being overlook but being discounted. The few times I've seen people try scouting hasn't ended very well.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
The chase rules , the infiltration rules. There are definitely ways to do this without outright murdering anyone that gets caught.
There might be but they aren't things I've seen DM's actually use outside a set encounter they have already pre-planned. I've never seen a random scouting turn into a chase or infiltration on the fly. They are far too complicated for most DM's to use off hand.
Secondly, I think most groups aren't fond of one player taking all the DM's time while the rest aren't actively involved.
"Dr. Doctor: We must split up into two teams: Team A and Team B. Team A will consist of myself, Stan, Kyle, Eric, Chef, and Nurse Goodly. Team B will consist of Kenny. Now, listen closely, Team B. Your goal will be to turn on the backup generator. To do this you must brave the storm outside and get into this sewage duct. Meanwhile, Team A will go to the holding area, here where there is a television, and some cocoa. We will drink the cocoa and watch family programming until Team B makes it through the sewage duct. By that time, Team B, remember that's you Kenny, should reach the outer core of the generator. It will be a cold and dangerous climb to the top, and there could be velociraptors here. Once you reach the top, you should be able to get a clear view from this window of us drinking cocoa and watching television. Then, you could proceed down into the generator, and power it on. Are there any questions?
Cartman: No, that sounds pretty sweet to me.
Dr. Doctor: Great, then, let's do it. Go, Team!"
Some people get bored drinking cocoa and watching TV while someone else if actively playing the game. That and Team B might not be thrilled with the possibility of fighting the velociraptors alone.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Chase rules are neat, but work better as a set piece you come up with ahead of time instead of something you come up with on the fly. Especially because scouting ahead doesn't usually mean THAT far ahead. The ideal distance is "far enough away to where the rest of the party doesn't have to roll stealth checks, but within shouting distance so we can rush in if the scout gets in trouble." Which isn't really enough room for multiple chase challenges, even if you could improvise them.At least, that's my impression. I haven't messed around with them that much, maybe it is easy to adlib.
By default, chase obstacles have one skill that uses a level based standard DC and another that uses a hard one. I personally play a little more loose with them (I set one of each, but if a player has a clever way to use a third skill or a skill feat that could justify an easier DC, I typically allow it), but overall they are really easy to improv since it's essentially a simple skill challenge. For a short distance, I'd make it so the scout only has to pass, say, two obstacles in order to meet back up with the party, and set the spotting creature two steps back.
This method makes so that, yeah, scouting CAN be dangerous, but you're unlikely to be totally SoL if you do get caught. If the scout is in a position to be caught, I make them roll stealth (to not be seen) or deception (to pretend to not be a threat), on a regular fail, the party will have completed their own tactics by the time the scout is caught and everyone gets the benefits of their tactics, as appropriate (including the scout); on a crit fail, they are caught early on and the party will not have completed their tactic.amd will not get the benefit. Because of this, I make the scout roll first; if the crit fail, I got right to the chase, otherwise, I resolve everything else first.
Since familiars are typically bad at skills, but usually innocuous, I typcially have the enemy ignore them even on a failure (unless the familiar is like an imp or some other obviously threatening creature), unless the party being scouted on has specific reason to suspect they are being scouted on by a familiar, or the familiar's species is wildly out of character for the environment; in which case they automatically fail the first roll to chase, due to taking some time to realize something is wrong.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Secondly, I think most groups aren't fond of one player taking all the DM's time while the rest aren't actively involved.
I think the rogue scouting by themselves only really becomes a solo show if they are going full blown infiltration: picking locks, stealing things, or mapping whole dungeons. Usually, the rogue isn't really doing anything until they find the next encounter, at which point whatever the GM tells them is information for the whole party so everyone should be dialed in. At least, if you avoid silly stuff like having the rogue roll stealth when there's no one to detect them.
Yes but you still don't know if in the next door there aren't a predator, an undead, an aberration or any other kind of creature that simply try to eat or destroy any creature it sees and sometimes this creature could be also inteligent humanoids.
Actually, while you might not know, you often have a pretty good guess. Sending your familiar into the deep dark cave vs the barracks of enemy soldier is a very different vibe.
I think the group
I think the rogue scouting by themselves only really
I'm not sure what this means.
Sending your familiar into the deep dark cave vs the barracks of enemy soldier is a very different vibe.
Yes, a bat flying or a spider crawling into a deep dark cave is likely to be ignored while a PC isn't.
I think the group
I think the rogue scouting by themselves only really
I'm not sure what this means.
Sending your familiar into the deep dark cave vs the barracks of enemy soldier is a very different vibe.Yes, a bat flying or a spider crawling into a deep dark cave is likely to be ignored while a PC isn't.
It means I accidentally hit submit before I finished typing the message, haha. Edited in what I meant to say.
It means I accidentally hit submit before I finished typing the message, haha. Edited in what I meant to say.
LOL I figured something went wrong. ;)
On the fixed message: In my experience, once a party member of out of sight of the rest of a the party it becomes a solo show where either you just play out the single player or switch between the the PC and the rest of the party and either way people are left twiddling their thumbs because of it.
Now this isn't as big a deal for me, as I play PbP so I'm fine doing something else since I'm not carving out a specific time to play: for a group with specific times they play, it can be a burden.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Chase rules are neat, but work better as a set piece you come up with ahead of time instead of something you come up with on the fly. Especially because scouting ahead doesn't usually mean THAT far ahead. The ideal distance is "far enough away to where the rest of the party doesn't have to roll stealth checks, but within shouting distance so we can rush in if the scout gets in trouble." Which isn't really enough room for multiple chase challenges, even if you could improvise them.
At least, that's my impression. I haven't messed around with them that much, maybe it is easy to adlib.
It is easy to set the DCs for the chase. It is not easy to determine what skill challenges and obstacles to use to progress the chase with.
Also, for the witch, losing the familiar is no big deal. It just pops back into existence the next morning.
Being unable to refocus for the rest of the day kinda stings. A Witch with no familiar and therefore no Hexes really is just a nerf'ed Wizard.
Yeah, you can still use the focus points that you have. Also if you have an archetype that allows some other way of refocusing that will be a lot better.
Chase rules are neat, but work better as a set piece you come up with ahead of time instead of something you come up with on the fly. Especially because scouting ahead doesn't usually mean THAT far ahead. The ideal distance is "far enough away to where the rest of the party doesn't have to roll stealth checks, but within shouting distance so we can rush in if the scout gets in trouble." Which isn't really enough room for multiple chase challenges, even if you could improvise them.
At least, that's my impression. I haven't messed around with them that much, maybe it is easy to adlib.
It is easy to set the DCs for the chase. It is not easy to determine what skill challenges and obstacles to use to progress the chase with.
Also, for the witch, losing the familiar is no big deal. It just pops back into existence the next morning.Being unable to refocus for the rest of the day kinda stings. A Witch with no familiar and therefore no Hexes really is just a nerf'ed Wizard.
Yeah, you can still use the focus points that you have. Also if you have an archetype that allows some other way of refocusing that will be a lot better.
Counter point: a witch who doesn't milk their familiar for all it is worth is already a worse wizard. I'm kidding, kind of. But that's certainly how it feels at level 1.
I think I may feel differently once I level up and get some lessons under my belt. With feats generally feel stronger than wizard feats. Currently my only focus spell is Phase Familiar, so I'm not really risking anything. Actually, that is a persuasive argument for taking familiar feats instead of lessons.
Also, for the witch, losing the familiar is no big deal. It just pops back into existence the next morning.Being unable to refocus for the rest of the day kinda stings. A Witch with no familiar and therefore no Hexes really is just a nerf'ed Wizard.
Yeah, you can still use the focus points that you have. Also if you have an archetype that allows some other way of refocusing that will be a lot better.
Counter point: a witch who doesn't milk their familiar for all it is worth is already a worse wizard. I'm kidding, kind of. But that's certainly how it feels at level 1.
I think I may feel differently once I level up and get some lessons under my belt. With feats generally feel stronger than wizard feats. Currently my only focus spell is Phase Familiar, so I'm not really risking anything. Actually, that is a persuasive argument for taking familiar feats instead of lessons.
The only counter counter point that I would bring out to disagree with, is that a Wizard at level 1 is fairly low-power too. Typically, thesis doesn't do much of anything at level 1.
But yeah, there is a lot of room for improvement in the Witch Hexes and familiar power that would make the Witch feel better and not overshadow other casters.
And when playing a character in a game with familiars being useful, taking feats that boost the familiar can be really good.
Hmm... Somehow the formatting on that got messed up. Tried fixing it, but couldn't figure out where the problem is in time.
No matter, I guess.
I'm not saying wizards are amazing, but at level 1 they get twice as many spell slots. They also have a potentially useful focus spell.
Aside from the familiar the witch just gets the hex cantrip. Which is great! I genuinely love Discern Secrets and am excited to have it for the entire campaign. I've even worked it into an ongoing gag. But the familiar is a lot more interesting.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
We are mostly rehashing old territory here. But why not.
I'm not saying wizards are amazing, but at level 1 they get twice as many spell slots.
This is true. Mostly. School spell and Drain Bonded Item let you prepare 3 spells and cast 4. Universalist Wizard only prepares 2 and casts 3.
They also have a potentially useful focus spell.
Translation: not all of the Wizard school focus spells are complete garbage. The same can be said of Hex Cantrips too.
If I were able to pick them freely, I like Protective Ward, Warped Terrain, and Call of the Grave.
Aside from the familiar the witch just gets the hex cantrip. Which is great! I genuinely love Discern Secrets and am excited to have it for the entire campaign. I've even worked it into an ongoing gag.
Then LOL? Discern Secrets is one of the ones that I don't think is terrible. But I guess it depends on how impactful Recall Knowledge is. Though the bonus to seek and sense motive is still useful in other scenarios such as fighting an invisible enemy or social encounters.
I feel like there is some overlap between the best Hex Cantrips and the worst school focus spells. I would rather have Discern Secrets than Physical Boost or Diviner's Sight for example. But there are school focus spells that are better than any of the Hex Cantrips too.
Also there is the extra trained skill and the full set of simple weapons - not that this is really worth much.
But the familiar is a lot more interesting.
Personally I like the Hexes better. They can be chosen freely and are all really good for at least certain types of campaigns and characters. Veil of Dreams and Stumbling Curse might be a bit on the low end. But any spellcasting character concept that I have come up with, I can look through the list of Basic Lesson Hexes and find at least one that the character would like and would use on a regular basis.
What disappoints me the most about Witch familiar is that there isn't anything unique about it other than the auto-rez if it happens to die.
We are mostly rehashing old territory here. But why not.
I'm not saying wizards are amazing, but at level 1 they get twice as many spell slots.This is true. Mostly. School spell and Drain Bonded Item let you prepare 3 spells and cast 4. Universalist Wizard only prepares 2 and casts 3.
They also have a potentially useful focus spell.Translation: not all of the Wizard school focus spells are complete garbage. The same can be said of Hex Cantrips too.
If I were able to pick them freely, I like Protective Ward, Warped Terrain, and Call of the Grave.
Aside from the familiar the witch just gets the hex cantrip. Which is great! I genuinely love Discern Secrets and am excited to have it for the entire campaign. I've even worked it into an ongoing gag.Then LOL? Discern Secrets is one of the ones that I don't think is terrible. But I guess it depends on how impactful Recall Knowledge is. Though the bonus to seek and sense motive is still useful in other scenarios such as fighting an invisible enemy or social encounters.
I feel like there is some overlap between the best Hex Cantrips and the worst school focus spells. I would rather have Discern Secrets than Physical Boost or Diviner's Sight for example. But there are school focus spells that are better than any of the Hex Cantrips too.
Also there is the extra trained skill and the full set of simple weapons - not that this is really worth much.
But the familiar is a lot more interesting.Personally I like the Hexes better. They can be chosen freely and are all really good for at least certain types of campaigns and characters. Veil of Dreams and Stumbling Curse might be a bit on the low end. But any spellcasting character concept that I have come up with, I can look through the list of Basic Lesson Hexes and find at least one that the character would like and would use on a regular basis.
What...
I think the universalist and evocation basic spells are solid. But in general I don't really disagree with you. The lesson spells seem much better than wizard focus spells.
I've always found Recall Knowledge super helpful and expect it to be more so in the magic school AP.
And considering how customizable familiars are, I'm not honestly not sure how much room there is to add more unique stuff without becoming more complexity than it is worth. The extra talents, resurrection, and optional class feats add quite a bit already.
You know, while I don't think witch familiars need unique abilities per se, I would have liked it if they got more extra abilities for free. Leaning into the familiar abilities costs you most of your class feats, much like animal companions. The witch is another class I want extra class feats on.
That said, I'm definitely gonna spend those class feats on the familiar. Think my Shisk is gonna upgrade to a pipe fox eventually.
|
NO, I'm not. I'm taking the word of a DEV of the game, Mark, that that is the correct way to play it according to the rules. So there is nothing arbitrary about it.
I’m not so sure that the fact that something is the word of a DEV of the game means it’s not arbitrary. Back in 1E DEVS of the game gave conflicting clarifications fairly often, which many speculate is why Paizo has almost entirely avoided giving any clarifications in 2E.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yes. Official clarifications would be preferred.
I do wish those would come a bit more frequently. Especially for things that have multiple very possible interpretations and affect a notable amount of characters or games.
NO, I'm not. I'm taking the word of a DEV of the game, Mark, that that is the correct way to play it according to the rules. So there is nothing arbitrary about it.I’m not so sure that the fact that something is the word of a DEV of the game means it’s not arbitrary. Back in 1E DEVS of the game gave conflicting clarifications fairly often, which many speculate is why Paizo has almost entirely avoided giving any clarifications in 2E.
ar·bi·trar·y
/ˈärbəˌtrerē/adjective
based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.
Since I had a reason to follow a DEV post, instead of a personal or random reason, it can't be arbitrary. Even from Mark's perspective, it can't be arbitrary as he has a hand in the system in question: there has been nothing posted about PF2 posts NOT being official unlike PF1 where they did that.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Gygax wasn't right about the "correct" way to play in the '80's and no one is right about it now, either. There is no correct way to play. Even if someone else believes there is.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Sure. But if we are going to play together - especially in large groups like PFS - then we need to have shared rules. Even if small groups decide together to deliberately change what those shared rules are (houserules). That should be a conscious and deliberate decision.
It helps to reduce the arguing and name calling.
Still holding out hope for witch specific familiar abilities as a soft nudge for the class.
Another thing: people say that they put their familiars into backpacks to keep them at least safe in combat (while they aren't very useful). And they obviously do give master abilities. But for the Sleeves of Storage this is written:
While in your sleeve, it can't be affected or targeted by any effects, but you don't benefit from any master abilities.So this means one of the two things: either this whole paragraph for the Sleeves of Storage is completely useless and is wasted space, or familiars are much worse then even generally assumed as they always eat all AoE attacks with you. (Unless they are protected by some special extradimensional ability.)
Lordy that's rough. Expendable familiars only really work for witches... otherwise you have to halt your campaign for a week of in game time. I would never make familiars targetable or without master abilities if you put them in a bag. Otherwise what's the point? My default familiar would always be a bird just so it could stay 50 feet above me and stay generally safe.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
It is probably because the Sleeves of Storage aren't specifically designed for familiars. Try Pet Cache, a Familiar Satchel, or Tattoo Transformation instead.
In home games we just generally exempt familiars from AoEs and all attacks unless they're specifically engaged in combat (as in delivering spells). Incidentally, nobody does that anymore.
Definitely not RAW and definitely not applicable to every game, but it feels a lot more elegant than jumping through all these hoops looking for specific items to protect your companion.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It is probably because the Sleeves of Storage aren't specifically designed for familiars. Try Pet Cache, a Familiar Satchel, or Tattoo Transformation instead.You don't understand. All you've shown here only confirms my thought: why do you need to spend master ability or buy a low-level item if you could just put a familiar in the backpack and it would be fully protected?
It seems designers think that it would not be protected at all (including from AoE) and being in a backpack is the same as being close to you or on your shoulder, for example.
When I hear people say that they are putting their familiar 'in a backpack', I assume that they mean a Familiar Satchel.
And since the Familiar Satchel exists and is a low level, low cost item, I could see combining its effects with a regular pack that is storing other adventuring equipment.
My default familiar would always be a bird just so it could stay 50 feet above me and stay generally safe.Yay, target practice for enemy archers! %)
I don't remember who said it first, but the best response to this that I ever heard went something along the lines of: If I had an ability where I could spend a free action and apply both slowed 1 and progress MAP on an enemy with no save, I would be doing that every round.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ye, only problem with doing independent + flier is that it consumes both abilities to keep it out of harm’s way of anything but specifically targetted ranged/melee attacks (which if they’re wasting on your familiar is good for you). That means the familiar isn’t doing much else.
Instead, leave it at home. Spell Battery and Familiar Focus don’t require the familiar actually be on your person, so leaving it at home is the safest location to protect against AoE. In fact, it doesn’t even need to be on your person to select abilities for the day - see ya Catticus Finch, Bilbo is going on a multi-year adventure. That’s still decent value for a 1st feat - effectively Desperate Prayer + an extra slot.
Otherwise, use Independent+Manual Dexterity for the 2 (+1/2 per round thereafter) free item draws per combat, and accept the AoE risk of losing the first level feat for a week if repeated AoE cones your way.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Familiars and companions are some of the few feat features that can be "turned off" for a week of in game time. I can't think of many other class feats that are rendered completely and utterly inoperable for multiple in game days. In my games I would habdwave that stuff and have them come back with the next day of preparations. Id give the witch some sort of boon to compensate, I just wouldn't feel good turning off someone's abilities for a week in game bc they chose the wrong feats. Fragility becomes a much smaller handicap once the familiars/companions are treated like class features and not independent creatures. A little bit of versimillitude I'm willing to break for the sake of fun and fairness.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
How do you rationalize a fireball burning a familiar inside a backpack to death, but not dealing a single point of damage to the backpack surrounding it?
I can't think of a faster way to destroy verisimilitude for my players.
How do you rationalize a fireball burning a familiar inside a backpack to death, but not dealing a single point of damage to the backpack surrounding it?
The same way the same fireball can leave papers on a desk undamaged but harm the player behind the desk maybe? The default setting is that objects need to be specifically attacked while creatures don't so there is no verisimilitude issue with the backpack being undamaged while a familiar is that isn't there with other items. If your fire spells don't regularly burn down houses and other wood items, it shouldn't be an issue.
Now on the specifics of backpacks and familiars, a familiar in a backpack means that a spell doesn't have line of sight and line of effect so it's not affected by the spell. "If a creature is entirely behind a wall or the like, you don't have line of effect and typically can't target it at all." This of course assumes the familiar is actually taking cover: if it's popping it's head up to do something then it's fair game.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
How do you rationalize a fireball burning a familiar inside a backpack to death, but not dealing a single point of damage to the backpack surrounding it?The same way the same fireball can leave papers on a desk undamaged but harm the player behind the desk maybe?
Except that isn't true. There are plenty of published encounters that indicate otherwise. Off the top of my head there is one where the PCs can accidentally set fire to the library the encounter is set in. In another published encounter, a fiery monster's innate magic threatens to burn down a building.
The developers and adventure designers have clearly shown again and again that fire burns things, if not explicitly in the rules, than certainly by example.
Except that isn't true. There are plenty of published encounters that indicate otherwise.
Default vs specific: the fact that you can point out some places where it happens doesn't negate the default.
The developers and adventure designers have clearly shown again and again that fire burns things, if not explicitly in the rules, than certainly by example.
It can: it doesn't mean it does by default.
"Normally an item takes damage only when a creature is directly attacking it—commonly targeted items include doors and traps."
"Many area effects describe only the effects on creatures in the area. The GM determines any effects to the environment and unattended objects."
As shown, the spell's often make NO mention of non-creature effects and as such, there is NO default damage to them. Any Dm if fully, 100% totally within the rules to have objects take no damage from spells that do not target them: in fact, the errata removing almost every instance of spells that target objects can be seen as an indicator that spells aren't meant to damage objects in most cases. You're ignoring that familiars have to breathe, eat and drink and the various options you mentioned deal with that on top of what the backpack can do.
As far as verisimilitude, we're talking about magic: it makes plenty of sense to make attack spells non destroy large swathes of objects and makes at least as much sense as someone's clothes being undamaged by that fireball when they are hit by it. If you're willing to give your cloak a verisimilitude pass, then why bring it up for the paper or desk next to you?
And by the way it's difficult to reconcile two parts of your post. :)
Ravingdork brought up verisimilitude which is a different argument than what works in game and as such I commented differently than what actually works in game: what makes sense and what the rules are do not have to match.
if this works why the hell have they designed all the other things to hide familiars? if this works why the hell have they designed all the other things to hide familiars? Sleeves, satchels, spells, master abilities (note this isn't only one thing, there are at least 4)? They don't know how their game works? They like to waste time, book space and effort? They don't allow to hide familiars into backpacks? What was really their intent?, satchels, spells, master abilities (note this isn't only one thing, there are at least 4)?
because they offer other things? Sleeves give your familiar 1 hr of air, while the backpack doesn't. Familiar Satchel offers air, food and water. Tattoo Transformation allows the familiar to be hidden and also means it doesn't require food, water or air. Pet Cache gives 8 hours or air, food, and water... See a pattern?
They don't know how their game works? They like to waste time, book space and effort? They don't allow to hide familiars into backpacks? What was really their intent?
More that you haven't really read over the options and didn't weigh the options well enough.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The rules say you can damage an object by attacking directly, but by the rules you can only strike creatures.The GMG also brings up using Produce Flame on a barrel to make it explode. The rules are supposed to be used but you're also supposed to think a little when you adjudicate whether something is doable.
I couldn't find any rules for thinking so I don't think that's RAW sorry.
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
The rules are not the simulation. The rules are a streamlined model of the simulation to cover most common situations, and PF2 assumes the GM is going to be able to adjudicate the edge cases like "does paper burn".
This is both to avoid rules that are cumbersome, and rules that directly contradict the intention of the GM or players in a given situation.
Specifically, if someone is trying to burn a backpack with a fireball (say it contains documents they want to destroy) it can be damaged by fire, but if someone doesn't care about the backpack when they're throwing a fireball at the wearer then the backpack and its contents isn't going to suffer damage. It's the "yes, and" principle of improv, the answer to both "can I destroy the contents of the desk with a fireball" and "can I hit the guy standing on the desk with a fireball without damaging the contents of the desk" are "yes".