RIP Familiars


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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100 posts in one night!

A few things I'd like to add:

I think Paizo and Mark do a great job. I've seen a few comments that are negative towards Mark and I don't agree with these. I just disagree with his ruling in this video.

I've seen comments about how strong it is to feed potions and that sword and board fighters would get too much out of it. Well, it looks like it's not that strong as I've never seen a sword and board fighter with a feeding Familiar. On the other hand, I've seen a lot of Sudden Charges, some action economy enhancers seem way better than Familiars for melee martials. As a side note, feeding a potion triggers AoO, I'm not sure it's that nice on a Fighter

Familiars are costly, they cost class feats or class abilities (you can have one with Ancestry feats but it's limited to very few Ancestries). With this ruling, their power level is just not in line with their cost (outside Valet). Considering the amount of book space that has been used on them, and the amount of discussions on these boards about them, it looks like it's a missed opportunity. Familiars are sexy, many people like them.

Mark's video is not official, only erratas are. So it's still time for Paizo to make another statement. Current state of the rules are flexible enough to allow the few Familiar uses that people like with just a small errata.

It takes a few heroes to close the Worldwound, I'm sure a few players can save their familiars!!!


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SuperBidi wrote:
Familiars are costly, they cost class feats or class abilities (you can have one with Ancestry feats but it's limited to very few Ancestries).

It's not that hard, really. Those limited ancestries? Adopted can allow you to take them. Witch starts with one without a feat. And even when it does cost a class feat, it's a 1st level one: to compare, it's in the same class level as Eschew Materials [or Alchemical Savant. When was the last time it was useful?] and it's clearly better than that feat WITH the limitations it has with Mark's comments.

SuperBidi wrote:
With this ruling, their power level is just not in line with their cost (outside Valet).

*looks at Eschew Materials* No, it seems fine as is. 2 of free cantrip, focus recharge mechanic, free spell slot, more reagents, reusing an innate spell... IMO, that's PRETTY good for a 1st level class feat. If anything, the power level could be counted as too high as you can pick whichever benefits you want per day and Master abilities are almost all good picks.

SuperBidi wrote:
Considering the amount of book space that has been used on them, and the amount of discussions on these boards about them, it looks like it's a missed opportunity. Familiars are sexy, many people like them.

I'd love to have super cool familiars. Same with summons. In fact I have a long list of things I'd like to be super cool that aren't.

SuperBidi wrote:
Mark's video is not official, only erratas are. So it's still time for Paizo to make another statement. Current state of the rules are flexible enough to allow the few Familiar uses that people like with just a small errata.

It's official enough for most I'd say. They have been disseminating info FAR more often in such videos than in this site so it's not surprising to see something like this.

SuperBidi wrote:
It takes a few heroes to close the Worldwound, I'm sure a few players can save their familiars!!!

If I'm going to fight the good fight, familiars are pretty far down on my list: Bulk and Oracles are by far higher on the list. ;)


SuperBidi wrote:


Mark's video is not official, only erratas are.

I am torn on this.

On the one hand, errata are meant to correct wrong stuff or something which was affecting the balance.

The familiar being used to activate items was more a misunderstood rather than an error, and I agree with Graystone about considering the words of a dev who workend on the game rules/mechanics.

But, on the other hand, I'd also like to see those clarifications ( as well as any other important statement )even on the errata page/list because ( but maybe it's just me ) it somehow reminds me of what happened with the street date of SoM.

The news was announced, though not on the "official" website, and because so created conflict ( not sure it's the correct word ) within the community.

Imo, it's very similar to have part of the errata not on the errata list.


graystone wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:
Familiars are costly, they cost class feats or class abilities (you can have one with Ancestry feats but it's limited to very few Ancestries).
It's not that hard, really. Those limited ancestries? Adopted can allow you to take them. Witch starts with one without a feat. And even when it does cost a class feat, it's a 1st level one: to compare, it's in the same class level as Eschew Materials [or Alchemical Savant. When was the last time it was useful?] and it's clearly better than that feat WITH the limitations it has with Mark's comments.

There aren't tons of pages about Eschew Materials or Alchemical Savant. There isn't any major class feature built around Eschew Materials or Alchemical Savant.

Having one weak feat is fine. Having a complete aspect of the game that is weak is not fine.

graystone wrote:
I'd love to have super cool familiars.

So we agree. Anyway, you are increasing the post count of this discussion, so you are an ally.

graystone wrote:
It's official enough for most I'd say.

It's definitely official enough outside of an errata. It's because it's official enough that I've opened this discussion.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

My chief concern is that GMs everywhere are going to see that video, or hear rumor of it, then misunderstand it and become WAY too heavy handed against familiars (like not even letting them open doors and the like, or have any mechanicaleffect whatsoever).

I mean, how much netting do the developers have to hand down before the baseline assumption becomes "it's really just meant for roleplaying."


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graystone wrote:
breithauptclan wrote:


Which is why it feels so punishing and not as intended for a GM to rule that familiars are also completely useless outside of combat too.
It's a 100% optional feat for everyone but a witch and even then, there are master abilities that CAN be used like Cantrip Connection or innate surge so the fact that there is a ribbon effect that it can move around is a bonus and not a punishment.

No, that is a troll. There are a ton of really cool-sounding abilities printed for a familiar. But almost none of them work other than 'inert battery'.

Seriously. Familiars automatically get training in Stealth. Can they actually use Stealth? Not if they have to be verbally commanded every 6 seconds. Trollololololololol.


Gortle wrote:
QuidEst wrote:

To me, it was always a bit weird that a familiar would be climbing around you, tipping potions into your mouth in the middle of a fight- that part broke verisimilitude to me. Not to say that it's necessarily weirder than the "familiar can't administer a healing potion to somebody unconscious" thing, but the familiar-as-a-feedsack was built around doing that regularly, rather than being an occasional edge case oddity.

But, I'm also just getting familiars for the talking cat aspect.

Our Witches familiar is a pig named Sausage. It has the Flight, Scent and Speech abilites. This week it discovered lipstick.

Its a scout of sorts, but mostly its roleplaying value.

OT: In PF1 my Shaman had a pig familiar that I could swap out some abilities on. For days in the city, I'd often give it 5' Flight which is too slow so I'd pull it around on a rope. :)


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breithauptclan wrote:
No, that is a troll. There are a ton of really cool-sounding abilities printed for a familiar. But almost none of them work other than 'inert battery'.

They work, just not how some people want them to.

breithauptclan wrote:
Seriously. Familiars automatically get training in Stealth. Can they actually use Stealth? Not if they have to be verbally commanded every 6 seconds. Trollololololololol.

What stops an Independent Familiar from using Stealth? Stealth also covers Hide, so a single Command allows Stealth to be of use. So it works fine if you think about it and check out all of the abilities.

Even Lab Assistant has a very niche use for alchemists that use a 2 handed weapon [like the alchemical crossbow] and has allies adjacent that want an elixir. Are those options great? No, but no one forced you to take it any more than someone forced you to take things like Eschew Materials or Alchemical Savant. There are things like Partner in Crime, Accompanist, Toolbearer and Spellcasting that are pretty cool in the familiar abilities.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

What exactly stops a familiar without Independent from using Stealth?


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I think the issue is that the familiar can use Stealth, but you can't, because you have to constantly tell it to use Stealth every round.

Minion trait: "if not otherwise specified, you issue a verbal command, a single action with the auditory and concentrate traits."

The witch's 12th level feat to see through the familiar's eyes solves this if you're remote piloting from a distance, as it allows mental communication.

Familiar's Face spell doesn't, you can speak through the familiar and presumably give it commands remotely, but then the familiar is effectively talking to itself as it sneaks from place to place.


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Ravingdork wrote:
What exactly stops a familiar without Independent from using Stealth?

Well, I'd expect a lot of people would make it a LOT easier to figure out where the familiar was when you are there telling them where to go: Command "you issue a verbal command as a single action with the auditory and concentrate trait". So if your familiar becomes hidden when others are around, it's not hard to figure out where they are when you're telling them to hide and move 10' forward.

Xenocrat wrote:
I think the issue is that the familiar can use Stealth, but you can't, because you have to constantly yell at it to use Stealth every round.

That's another issue: it's easier to hide the familiar on yourself and then hide yourself.


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graystone wrote:


Xenocrat wrote:
I think the issue is that the familiar can use Stealth, but you can't, because you have to constantly yell at it to use Stealth every round.
That's another issue: it's easier to hide the familiar on yourself and then hide yourself.

Especially with Pet Cache spell and the new companion/familiar tattoo in SoM.

Liberty's Edge

Ravingdork wrote:
Familiars can pour drinks, but not potions. *rolls eyes

Last I checked, you do not Activate drinks ;-)


graystone wrote:
breithauptclan wrote:
No, that is a troll. There are a ton of really cool-sounding abilities printed for a familiar. But almost none of them work other than 'inert battery'.

They work, just not how some people want them to.

breithauptclan wrote:
Seriously. Familiars automatically get training in Stealth. Can they actually use Stealth? Not if they have to be verbally commanded every 6 seconds. Trollololololololol.
What stops an Independent Familiar from using Stealth? Stealth also covers Hide, so a single Command allows Stealth to be of use. So it works fine if you think about it and check out all of the abilities.

What exactly allows a familiar with Independent to use Stealth to Avoid Notice?

Here is another exercise: pick any two non-battery familiar abilities. Are the two of them together worth a level 1 class feat? Pick any 3 - 6 (including battery) familiar abilities. Are all of them together worth a class feature such as light armor training, 2 HP per level, or a 4th spell slot per spell level?


I don't think Graystone ever said that Familiars were strong, quite the opposite.
With this ruling, now, they are almost synonymous to "Valet" as it's the only things Familiars can do that is worth paying a feat.

Liberty's Edge

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Additional focus point is good too.


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breithauptclan wrote:
What exactly allows a familiar with Independent to use Stealth to Avoid Notice?

Well, you NEVER mentioned you where talking about exploration mode: "Familiars automatically get training in Stealth. Can they actually use Stealth?"

breithauptclan wrote:
Here is another exercise: pick any two non-battery familiar abilities. Are the two of them together worth a level 1 class feat?

Sure. Cantrip Connection [It's not uncommon for me to pick up Cantrip Expansion] and Familiar Focus [reuse a focus spell in an encounter]. Or Extra Reagents. Or Innate Surge [you can get up to 10th level spells as innates from ancestry feats]. Or Toolbearer, as it lets you exceed the worn tool limit [say you want to use battle medicine and snares]. Or Spellcasting. Or Partner in Crime. Or Skilled [equal to free rolls on that skill, especially if it's normally vs a bad stat]. Or Accompanist. ANY of those beat out the entire Eschew Materials or Alchemical Savant feat which is the very, very LOW bar for 1st level class feats.

breithauptclan wrote:
Pick any 3 - 6 (including battery) familiar abilities. Are all of them together worth a class feature such as light armor training, 2 HP per level, or a 4th spell slot per spell level?

Ah... Why would this matter? But YES they are: a 4th level slot vs reusing a 10th level spell. Spellcasting can get you a 5th level slot. Battery can get you a 7th level slot.


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SuperBidi wrote:

I don't think Graystone ever said that Familiars were strong, quite the opposite.

With this ruling, now, they are almost synonymous to "Valet" as it's the only things Familiars can do that is worth paying a feat.

IMO, it's more that you treat them as an intelligent item that mostly gives you passive buffs. I wouldn't call them strong but they are far from worthless: they just aren't the must have action economy booster some people thought they where. Granted, more than 1/2 the abilities are of questionable value but every feat/ability category has some options that are like that.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm still not convinced that you have to spend actions commanding the familiar outside of encounter mode. They act as anyone else does: narratively.


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AnimatedPaper wrote:

Oh, I don’t mean magical items. But, by Graystone’s interpretation, a companion can’t use a completely mundane ball of yarn.

Or door knob.

I would suspect Familiars and Animal Companions can't use the yarn to knit sweaters (which is basically the Craft downtime activity), which is intended. But they can certainly Interact, so long as it's not an Activate activity. Same goes for the door knob.

A nice thing about this is if the door is trapped and is triggered upon Activation from an object, a Familiar can never trigger said trap, since the trap is usually an item. Some food for thought.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

That's why I mentioned familiars getting weaker with new material. All we need is one author to publish a mundane door with an Activation to open, then suddenly familiars won't be able to open doors anymore.


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Ravingdork wrote:
I'm still not convinced that you have to spend actions commanding the familiar outside of encounter mode. They act as anyone else does: narratively.

You have activities you use and that is the opposite of it JUST being "narratively". Activities are defined by what actions you take per round and it requires an action per round to Command. I can't see why it's tightly controlled in combat but it's a free for all out of it.

Secondly, The Summoner's Act Together specifically says that that ability allows them to use 2 Exploration abilities for it stands to reason that without such an ability, you are limited to 1.


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graystone wrote:
they just aren't the must have action economy booster some people thought they where.

Must have economy boosters? I've never seen anyone with a Familiar unless they were from a class/Ancestry having access to them. And even in these cases, Familiars were very far from an autopick.

Familiars were only a must-have for the Alchemist.

Potions are a rare sight. I'm not even sure I see one used during combat every 20 fights (and I play PFS where potions are free). An economy booster that is used during only 5% of fights is nowhere close to a must-have, it's actually quite bad.

graystone wrote:
Or Accompanist.

You often pay class feats to gain a skill feat? Seems very very bad to me.


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Ravingdork wrote:
That's why I mentioned familiars getting weaker with new material. All we need is one author to publish a mundane door with an Activation to open, then suddenly familiars won't be able to open doors anymore.

This would have been developed in the Core Rulebook since doors are pretty essential to the overall layout of many a dungeon and structure. But since the rules don't expressly spell that out, I think we are safe.

I mean, even if we gave Familiars some basic statistics (such as being able to Strike or carry objects or what have you), they would be far too weak to be impactful to the game, especially if we argue it can't be stronger than the Master at said certain tasks. Good luck getting past Trained or even being able to add your level, much less a probably horrible attribute modifier that won't increase with level.


SuperBidi wrote:

Must have economy boosters? I've never seen anyone with a Familiar unless they were from a class/Ancestry having access to them. And even in these cases, Familiars were very far from an autopick.

Familiars were only a must-have for the Alchemist.

This is what I was referring to: I've heard 'Alchemists are fine because familiars' plenty of times. If it isn't the alchemist, I don't see how these changes change much of anything from how I've seen familiars run: they are there for the master abilities [or the few familiar ones I mentioned].

Liberty's Edge

graystone wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I'm still not convinced that you have to spend actions commanding the familiar outside of encounter mode. They act as anyone else does: narratively.

You have activities you use and that is the opposite of it JUST being "narratively". Activities are defined by what actions you take per round and it requires an action per round to Command. I can't see why it's tightly controlled in combat but it's a free for all out of it.

Secondly, The Summoner's Act Together specifically says that that ability allows them to use 2 Exploration abilities for it stands to reason that without such an ability, you are limited to 1.

2 different Exploration activities ;-)


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graystone wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:

Must have economy boosters? I've never seen anyone with a Familiar unless they were from a class/Ancestry having access to them. And even in these cases, Familiars were very far from an autopick.

Familiars were only a must-have for the Alchemist.
This is what I was referring to: I've heard 'Alchemists are fine because familiars' plenty of times.

For the sake of balance, let's nerf Alchemist!

Sorry, but that's what your message looks like.


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SuperBidi wrote:
For the sake of balance, let's nerf Alchemist!

LOL I'd rather see alchemist buffed than have the familiar as a crutch. That and it never seemed that it should work that way by the way it was written. That's not to say I wouldn't love to see better familiars, I just don't think they should be made better JUST to improve the alchemist. ;)


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graystone wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:
For the sake of balance, let's nerf Alchemist!
LOL I'd rather see alchemist buffed than have the familiar as a crutch. That and it never seemed that it should work that way by the way it was written. That's not to say I wouldn't love to see better familiars, I just don't think they should be made better JUST to improve the alchemist. ;)

Well, it was not perfect, but it was allowing the Alchemist to use Elixirs pretty consistently in combat.

I'd also prefer to see the Alchemist rewritten, but that's far outside the limits of an errata.


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Also, there's a new Familiar in Secrets of Magic: The Eidolon. Grab one, give it tons of arms, Large size and we're back to square one: 1-action Elixirs in large reach.


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graystone wrote:
breithauptclan wrote:
What exactly allows a familiar with Independent to use Stealth to Avoid Notice?
Well, you NEVER mentioned you where talking about exploration mode: "Familiars automatically get training in Stealth. Can they actually use Stealth?"

Let me clarify. In combat, why use stealth instead of a Pet Carrier? Out of combat the restrictive ruling of requiring verbal commands every 6 seconds makes using stealth pointless.

graystone wrote:
breithauptclan wrote:
Here is another exercise: pick any two non-battery familiar abilities. Are the two of them together worth a level 1 class feat?
Sure. Cantrip Connection [It's not uncommon for me to pick up Cantrip Expansion] and Familiar Focus [reuse a focus spell in an encounter]. Or Extra Reagents. Or Innate Surge [you can get up to 10th level spells as innates from ancestry feats]. Or Toolbearer, as it lets you exceed the worn tool limit [say you want to use battle medicine and snares]. Or Spellcasting. Or Partner in Crime. Or Skilled [equal to free rolls on that skill, especially if it's normally vs a bad stat]. Or Accompanist. ANY of those beat out the entire Eschew Materials or Alchemical Savant feat which is the very, very LOW bar for 1st level class feats.

Me: *asks for non-battery familiar abilities*

graystone: *immediately presents the four best battery familiar abilities*

Again, let me clarify. What I am calling a 'battery' ability is an ability that the familiar doesn't actually use - all it does is power up the master's use of resources. So things like Cantrip Connection, Spell Battery, Familiar Focus, Innate Surge, and the like.

That is what this entire thread is about. There are people who are not happy with a familiar that is little more than a role-playing decoration with no mechanical use, or daily resource battery. We want familiars that can actually do something. Anything. Anything actually significant and meaningful (apparently I have to clarify that). I don't even mind if it is only in exploration mode and the familiar has no meaningful use in combat.

Partner in Crime and Accompanist might be useful for a very small set of characters (Bards and Rogues don't get familiars from class feats).
Toolbearer is somewhere between a niche character build help and a battery (you already can hold tools - now you can hold more).

And of course Skilled would be great - if it could be used for anything other than recall knowledge. Maybe repairing a Champion's shield during a 10 minute rest. Or picking the lock on the door while the party deals with the never-ending arrival of new enemies (has to be able to 'use' the lockpick items).

And also regarding Skilled - it isn't all that great. Good, but not great. The bonus to the roll is better than untrained, but slightly worse than trained, noticeably worse than trained + high ability score, and significantly worse than anything higher than trained.

If the familiar were allowed to do anything, it would be as good as the Human ancestry feat Clever Improviser except that it only affects one skill per instance of Skilled. Without being able to do anything, it is noticeably less useful than Bardic Lore because it can only be used on one skill per instance.


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breithauptclan wrote:


Here is another exercise: pick any two non-battery familiar abilities. Are the two of them together worth a level 1 class feat? Pick any 3 - 6 (including battery) familiar abilities. Are all of them together worth a class feature such as light armor training, 2 HP per level, or a 4th spell slot per spell level?

First challenge: speed (40') and deliver spells gives you an 80' ranged delivery of touch spells for one action compared to 30' for Reach Spell and doesn't prevent application of a metamagic to the spell. Probably best done as a Witch or when its engaged in melee combat with an ally to mitigate the risks, but it's definitely superior in application to that quite good feat.

I'll also throw in speech and skilled (intimidate), for one action you can try two intimidate checks against different enemies in range, cast your spell after if there's a success. It's like a watered down heightened Fear spell with a max of two targets and less likely to succeed, but infinitely spammable against new foes.


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breithauptclan wrote:
Let me clarify. In combat, why use stealth instead of a Pet Carrier? Out of combat the restrictive ruling of requiring verbal commands every 6 seconds makes using stealth pointless.

You don't have 5gp and/or you're not a pathfinder and as such do not have access to it.

breithauptclan wrote:
Me: *asks for non-battery familiar abilities*

There is only 1 battery ability: if you wanted battery-like to be included in that, well you should have specified. I can't read your mind. But you'll notice I gave you others too.

breithauptclan wrote:
Again, let me clarify. What I am calling a 'battery' ability is an ability that the familiar doesn't actually use - all it does is power up the master's use of resources. So things like Cantrip Connection, Spell Battery, Familiar Focus, Innate Surge, and the like.

Ah... The familiar is MEANT to power up the master. As/is, it's mostly an item. That said, spellcaster and skilled fit the bill.

breithauptclan wrote:
That is what this entire thread is about. There are people who are not happy with a familiar that is little more than a role-playing decoration with no mechanical use, or daily resource battery. We want familiars that can actually do something. Anything. Anything actually significant and meaningful (apparently I have to clarify that). I don't even mind if it is only in exploration mode and the familiar has no meaningful use in combat.

I didn't get that as the main point of the thread. I thought it was lamenting the new ruling. *shrug* it is what it is. I see "significant and meaningful" as something the master gains: and the familiar does that. It's just not REALLY an independent entity that acts as a 2nd PC. That's the way the game presents minions.

breithauptclan wrote:
Partner in Crime and Accompanist might be useful for a very small set of characters (Bards and Rogues don't get familiars from class feats).

More niche than Eschew Materials or Alchemical Savant?

breithauptclan wrote:
is somewhere between a niche character build help and a battery (you already can hold tools - now you can hold more).

That really isn't the case as the bulk has a limit: skill monkeys can quickly run out of space for kits that can see action in encounters.

breithauptclan wrote:
And of course Skilled would be great - if it could be used for anything other than recall knowledge. Maybe repairing a Champion's shield during a 10 minute rest. Or picking the lock on the door while the party deals with the never-ending arrival of new enemies (has to be able to 'use' the lockpick items).

*shrug* It seems good as/is. You're argument here is with the action and minion systems and not familiars in particular. An ape animal companion isn't able to wield weapons or play instruments either.

breithauptclan wrote:
And also regarding Skilled - it isn't all that great. Good, but not great.

It's worth a feat [especially as you can change the skill per day] and that was the question.

breithauptclan wrote:
If the familiar were allowed to do anything, it would be as good as the Human ancestry feat Clever Improviser except that it only affects one skill per instance of Skilled. Without being able to do anything, it is noticeably less useful than Bardic Lore because it can only be used on one skill per instance.

Again, the bar is quite low on how good a feat has to be for a 1sy level class feat. It doesn't have to be as useful as Bardic Lore or Clever Improviser but at least as good as Eschew Materials or Alchemical Savant... I'd say familiar passes with flying colors.


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SuperBidi wrote:


graystone wrote:
Or Accompanist.
You often pay class feats to gain a skill feat? Seems very very bad to me.

The skill feat is limited to once specific form of performance. Since you do have to change up your type for certain different bard abilities (auditory vs the few/one visual composition, counterperformance as appropriate for visual/auditory, etc.) it can matter.


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graystone wrote:
I didn't get that as the main point of the thread. I thought it was lamenting the new ruling. *shrug* it is what it is.

A new *unofficial* ruling that removes one of the uses that people were getting familiars for. Leaving us all with the question of what are familiars actually meant to do.

graystone wrote:
I see "significant and meaningful" as something the master gains: and the familiar does that. It's just not REALLY an independent entity that acts as a 2nd PC. That's the way the game presents minions.

This seems to be the big disconnect in thinking between us.

Why would the game present the familiar as a separate, independent, intelligent creature capable of speech, manipulating items, making decisions (Independent ability), spellcasting, remembering information... and then say, 'well it isn't REALLY an independent entity'? Trollolololololol.

If all a familiar is supposed to be is a resource battery and some skill boosts, an item would be a better flavor for it. Grimoire and Bonded Item for example.


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Familiars really don't do anything, it'd be one thing if they were just some free RP thing, but witches and one kind of wizard are treating them as a major class feature.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

In games I've used my familiar to...
...case a joint.
...spy on enemy operations.
...follow suspects.
...keep watch and raise an alarm if need be.
...guard the prisoners.
...trigger potential traps (they hate this; works best with witch).
...keep me from starving (for better or worse, they never look at you the same way thereafter; and quite frankly, neither does the party).
...start fires (typically by knocking a torch or lantern over).
...distract the guards (more difficultthan it souns).

Any GM who says the familiar is not capable of these things isn't a GM, but a mindless automaton that I will never play under.


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Ravingdork wrote:
...keep me from starving (for better or worse, they never look at you the same way thereafter; and quite frankly, neither does the party).

Ah yes, the Excel Saga school of animal mascot/emergency rations.


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Ravingdork wrote:


...keep me from starving (for better or worse, they never look at you the same way thereafter; and quite frankly, neither does the party).

Yeah, having your raven ask the local pigeons where the best source of thrown breadcrumbs is or your rat finding the best trash is a good idea.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Xenocrat wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:


...keep me from starving (for better or worse, they never look at you the same way thereafter; and quite frankly, neither does the party).
Yeah, having your raven ask the local pigeons where the best source of thrown breadcrumbs is or your rat finding the best trash is a good idea.

...yes...


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As for the Minion trait not being intended to boost a character's action economy - that is kinda what the Minion trait does. It lets you trade one of your actions for two of the other characters.

For Animal Companions in combat this is fantastic. Not only does it let you have more actions, it is also a MAP reducer. Because this second independent, distinct creature is a separate, distinct creature it gets its own MAP progression.

If a familiar can't be as powerful out of combat as an Animal Companion is in combat, then there is something wrong.


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I miss when we got these sorts of rules explanations in text and I didn't have to watch videos.

But if my familiar *is* a crossbow (say I'm a witch or have the witch dedication and Baba Yaga is my patron), can it reload itself?


PossibleCabbage wrote:

I miss when we got these sorts of rules explanations in text and I didn't have to watch videos.

But if my familiar *is* a crossbow (say I'm a witch or have the witch dedication and Baba Yaga is my patron), can it reload itself?

Is it wielding itself?

...not entirely sure I want to know the answer to that...


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Any way the title of this thread says it all.

If you wondered why Paizo don't make many comments on rules, this is why. A part of the community has an understanding on a rule. It wasn't correct, but it was perfectly workable. But when it gets clarified they can't ignore it anymore. So all that has happened is they have some unhappy customers.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Gortle wrote:

Any way the title of this thread says it all.

If you wondered why Paizo don't make many comments on rules, this is why. A part of the community has an understanding on a rule. It wasn't correct, but it was perfectly workable. But when it gets clarified they can't ignore it anymore. So all that has happened is they have some unhappy customers.

Personally I'm happy for the clarification. Individual groups can continue to do whatever they want in their games but I like to know the official intention/ruling. Not sure why anyone is that upset because for the most part this only effects PFS and not anyone's home game.


Official clarification would be great. There is even a place for that to happen.

And yeah, I fully understand why the game devs don't make offhand rulings in random places.


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breithauptclan wrote:
Official clarification would be great. There is even a place for that to happen.

In fairness, familiars not being able to activate items is there and has been there for a while.

That's where the rule comes from.


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Ravingdork wrote:

In games I've used my familiar to...

...case a joint.
...spy on enemy operations.
...follow suspects.
...keep watch and raise an alarm if need be.
...guard the prisoners.
...trigger potential traps (they hate this; works best with witch).
...keep me from starving (for better or worse, they never look at you the same way thereafter; and quite frankly, neither does the party).
...start fires (typically by knocking a torch or lantern over).
...distract the guards (more difficultthan it souns).

Any GM who says the familiar is not capable of these things isn't a GM, but a mindless automaton that I will never play under.

Time to break this down.

It can do the first 3 if it's inconspicuous or quiet enough to not be detected. The problem here is that they might not be trained in those skills, and even if it is, it doesn't scale past Level + Casting Attribute in terms of bonuses. You'll be getting to "Need a 19" territory by mid-level, since competent enemies (even Level - 2) will usually be pretty good to sense or identify your creature, either by senses (scent, blindsight, etc.) or by simply having good Perception modifiers that outpace your Level + Intelligence modifier. I suspect past 5th level, this starts to fade out of relevancy pretty fast. After all, it peaks at +27 for an Acrobatics, Stealth, or Perception check, which is pretty weaksauce by the endgame.

Not sure how it can do this unless it's maybe Independent, since the biggest issue is the "Can't act unless commanded to" rule, especially in a pre-combat situation where a random encounter comes into play. But even then, most Familiars and Animal Companions can't do separate activities from their Masters, since the intent is that they aren't meant to give players more raw exploration activities than those who don't have them, merely more options to use their exploration activities on. The Eidolon rules are enough precedent for this, since they are specifically spelled out as being able to perform multiple exploration activities.

If you have enemies that are wanting to attack/free your prisoners, that Familiar is not going to be doing much to stop them, especially since they cannot attack in kind (thus providing an incentive not to free them right away), or provide some other form of reliable deterrent. At best it will let you know that the prisoner is trying to escape and thus you will have to act accordingly to stop them, which may be useful in some cases. This also assumes Independent is in play, otherwise you technically have to command it round for round. Even if we argue that it should only take one command to do it (because it will then continue to maintain guarding the prisoner until it either can't do it anymore or until you command it again), balance would suggest it still takes an action to ensure your Familiar is doing its task.

While a Familiar being used to trigger traps is useful, so is a lower level Summon spell whose sole purpose is to do this, and I'd really only recommend this if you don't have a trap character in your group (which, speaking from personal experience, is a horrible thing to have). The best part is, if you want to keep your Familiar for other things you might need it to do (which is limited, but being optimistic here), you don't have to sacrifice it for that kind of thing when a simple Summon X spell, even at 1st level, functions just fine.

This is dependent on how it starts a fire. If it tries to activate an item which causes a fire (such as igniting a torch or utilizing a Staff of Fire), it would fail by RAW, since it cannot activate items. Interacting with existing flammable objects might be possible, though, especially with certain Familiar Abilities active.

Unsure how a Familiar can distract guards, especially if we want to argue that it's inconspicuous enough to be able to infiltrate enemy bases and tail bad guys undetected. This again runs into the problem of the first case, where using skills it's not trained in will result in being outpaced relatively quickly against competent enemies. There might be some ways, but again, gotta be creative here, and the powers need to support it. If you got the wrong stuff, you'll have to wait a day to do what you want, which is pretty lame.

Problem is that even with a fully optimized Familiar character, you just won't have the ability spaces to do all of those things while having it be a self-functioning creature that you don't need to worry too much about. If an enemy (such as a Dragon) sneezes on it (with a Breath Weapon), it's not going to last very long. At least the Animal Companion can be competent in combat, so long as you regularly invest in it, and it won't die from an enemy's sneeze. But seriously, Familiars have some small utility benefits, and other than RP, it's a crapshoot.


A flying, fast, tough familiar (7hp per level) with speech or better Familiar’s Face spell can distract guards by going up to talk to or taunt them and have a very chance of escaping even the worst reactions. How much that accomplishes is obviously situation and GM dependent, but it’s not unreasonable to do something sometimes.

Birds, cats, or rats can do a lot of short distance tactical scouting in an urban environment and in many dungeons. Who kills every critter they see come around a corner and then saunter back? Yes, you have to drop out of simplified generic exploration mode for this, but it’s workable if your GM plays ball.

A 12th level witch with the share senses feat can remotely pilot a bird with telepathic commands as a drone, flying ahead to see what there is before the rest of the party even approaches in encounter or exploration mode. Time consuming (in world, too) but reasonable.

I will say most stuff I would use it for takes 6-8 abilities to also have some good master ability support, so it’s not for casual familiar users.


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Xenocrat wrote:

A flying, fast, tough familiar (7hp per level) with speech or better Familiar’s Face spell can distract guards by going up to talk to or taunt them and have a very chance of escaping even the worst reactions. How much that accomplishes is obviously situation and GM dependent, but it’s not unreasonable to do something sometimes.

Birds, cats, or rats can do a lot of short distance tactical scouting in an urban environment and in many dungeons. Who kills every critter they see come around a corner and then saunter back? Yes, you have to drop out of simplified generic exploration mode for this, but it’s workable if your GM plays ball.

A 12th level witch with the share senses feat can remotely pilot a bird with telepathic commands as a drone, flying ahead to see what there is before the rest of the party even approaches in encounter or exploration mode. Time consuming (in world, too) but reasonable.

If the guards see the Familiar, Initiative will be rolled, and at the higher levels, they will most likely win Initiative and run up and proceed to kill the Familiar before it gets a chance to flee. This is less likely at lower levels, but still possible. If the PCs are in sight, they might chase them too, or if not, go in to warn the rest of the camp if they feel overwhelmed. If the Familiar is supposed to be undetected and out of reach, the Guards might catch wind of a Familiar via Perception against its Stealth/Deception DC (or vice-versa), in which case the defenses might be up and the enemies may be ready for the PCs, making the future combats tougher instead of just barging in and catching them before they can alert the others inside (or using a secret door).

This depends on how inconspicuous the Familiar is. A cat or rat with wings is most definitely going to be noticed compared to a bird, for example. If they have other visible abilities, creatures will take notice and act accordingly. This also requires the Familiar to be Independent, otherwise you would have to command it constantly.

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