A friend and I have been working on a fantasy ttrpg setting inspired by the work of Pendleton Ward ("Adventure Time", "Over the Garden Wall", "Midnight Gospel".
We'll have the following races available for player characters:
Elementals (cloudfolk, rock-men, water nymphs, forest dryads)
Robos (battle driods, messenger bots, gizmos, rust buckets)
Humans
Dwarves (mountain, grey, forge, hill)
Elves (wood, moon, high, dark)
Gnomes (forest, deep, tinker, sylvan)
Goblins (hobs, boggarts, bugbears, orcs)
Instead of each race having it's own set of stats, I was thinking we open it up a bit and just let the players build what makes sense for the character. Subterranean, cave-dwelling humans with darkvision, goblins with scent, heavy metal dwarves with +2 Intimidate and Perform, etc.
Below is what I think will be the complete list of options available.
Does it seem like I've missed anything vital? And, most importantly, how many points do you think each thing should cost?
Right now, I'm thinking +2 to a skill should be the baseline: 1pt. Where would you go from there? These are my values, just going off my instincts.
+1 to a save (max +2) 2pts
+1 natural armor (max +2) 2pts
+1hp/HD 2pts
+1 Initiative (max +4) 1pt
Low-light vision 1pt
Darkvision 2pts
Scent 3pts
Blindsense 20ft 6pts
Tremorsense 10ft 8pts
-10ft to base speed -1pt
+10ft to base speed +1pt
Climb (20ft) 4pts
Swim (40ft) 3pts
Burrow (5ft) 8pts
Fly (60ft) 12pts
Single primary natural attack 4pts
Paired primary natural attack 4pts
Single secondary natural attack 2pts
Paired secondary natural attack 2pts
Bonus Feat 4pts
The race builder is a little too unwieldy for my taste, and then there's the matter of the wonky prices on some of the choices. So I'm not so sure. But maybe it would be a better place to start.
What do you think? If everyone's going off the same list, it shouldn't be too bad. But which options seem like must-haves and which seem like never-takes? And how many points would be a good place to start?
How many RP total are you expecting to allow?
That's one of the things I was wondering. I think...15 would be a good ballpark for most concepts?
Edit: i think im not understanding some thing with ‘single natural attack’ and ‘paired natural attack’ costing the same.
Sorry, yeah I can see why that wouldn't make much sense without an explanation.
My thought process was that a singular natural attack--bite, gore, etc.--deals more damage, can be used to 100% effectiveness with a single attack, and is still somewhat compatible with manufactured weapons, compared to a pair of them--claws, hooves, etc.). But I haven't crunched the numbers super hard on anything like this so far.
Hm...yeah, I see what you mean. It's unfortunate; price them too high and characters who would benefit a little from them won't take them. Price them too low and characters who focus around them are too good.
Maybe there just needs to be a limit. One primary attack, one secondary. Claws and bite, gore and hooves, tail and wings. That...probably covers most of the options, no?
Another thing I consider was elemental and construct traits; immunity to disease, fatigue, etc and not needing to breathe. But...I think we can just ignore all that? A robot bounty hunter still needs to fuel his power cells. A tree-man still needs to sleep. Because I said so.
An updated list of options.
+2 to skill 1pt (max +4)
+1 to save 2pts (max +2)
+1 natural armor 2pts (max +2)
+1hp/HD 2pts
+1 Initiative 1pt (max +4)
+1 CMD 2pts (max +2)
Low-light vision 1pt
Darkvision 2pts
Blindsense (30ft) 6pts
Tremorsense (10ft) 8pts
Scent 3pts
Fast 1pt
Slow -1pt
Climb (20ft) 3pts
Swim (30ft) 1pt
Burrow (10ft) 8pts
Fly (50ft) 12pts
Primary natural attack 4pts*
Secondary natural attack 4pts*
Bonus Feat 4pts
Hold Breath 1pt
Amphibious 2pts
Elemental resistance (5) 4pts
*a character may have one primary natural weapon and one secondary natural weapon. A pair of natural weapons such as claws, hooves or wings counts as one weapon for this purpose.
--what sort of stupid combos can people make? Is anything important not represented here? How many points do you need to make a concept come alive?
I'm not sure how exactly it works, but are you trying to replicate bases races, or you're trying to achieve something else entirely?
If we assume 15 point build i can come up with a few things that outshine any base races. Also, i'm guessing that no one gets attribute bonus and penalty since i can't find any mention of attribute.
Here's a few idea that sounds silly to me:
The Meatmens: +7 extra HP per level, +1 to
+1 hp/HD x7 = 14 RP
+2 to intimidate (cause why not?)
The Quicklings: +8 initiative, 100 base land speed.
+1 Initiative 1pt x4 = 4rp
Bonus feat: Improved Initiave = 4rp
Fast x7 = 7rp
The Sonics: 180 feat base land speed
Fast x15 = 15 rp
Take my post with a grain of salts of course i'm just coming up with silly names for what i thinks are silly ideas, that seems to be allowed within your system.
What exactly is unwieldy with the original race builder? I'm fairly experienced with its system, so i might be able to help.
I'm not sure how exactly it works, but are you trying to replicate bases races, or you're trying to achieve something else entirely?
Something else, for sure. I want to give people the opportunity to make something strange, with unusual or semi-potent abilities, so I figured I'd let people who wanted to play "regular" races give them a few little boosts to make up for it.
Here's a few idea that sounds silly to me...
Oh yes. Right.
I was thinking that anything you can take multiple times comes with a maximum (+4 to skills and initiative, +2 to saves, AC, etc.), and everything that doesn't list a maximum can only be taken once (speed increase, bonus hp, etc).What exactly is unwieldy with the original race builder? I'm fairly experienced with its system, so i might be able to help.
Sorry, let me clarify: I'm not looking for help with the existing system. I understand it just fine. I just think it's...pretty poorly made.
But then, I tend to find ways to trim the fat off bloated systems like Pathfinder 1e. So it's less about this specific subsystem and more the problems that systems like these run into in terms of over-development.Specifically though, I don't care for "this trait gives you +X to Y, but has a prerequisite of Z", or "you can select this multiple times, but each time the cost increases by X", along with all the overly specific stuff.
And then there's racial bonuses in general. "+X vs Y" feels needlessly complicated to me. Especially when you have players who struggle with bookkeeping like I do.
And even without their struggles, I've found a smaller, static bonus instead of a larger situational one to convey the desired feel just fine anyway, while being more streamline.
...it’s not clear that you can take arbitrary options e.g. Fast more than once in his proposed system...
Again, anything listed above that has a maximum stated in parentheses after it can be taken multiple times, up to the maximum. Anything else can be taken once.
Apologies for not mentioning that earlier. This is just a rough draft, hardly a complete subsystem.
I've been thinking of changing things up a bit; maybe dropping the price on some of the sensory abilities and the like and possibly reducing the point allowance.
Some example races with things as they are:
Lizard man- +2 Intimidate (1pt), +2 Stealth (1pt), +1 natural armor (2pts), +1 Ref (2pts), scent (3pts), swim (1pt), primary natural attack (4pts), hold breath (1pt) --15pts
Minotaur- +2 Athletics (1pt), +2 Survival (1pt), +1 Fort (2pts), +1 Will (2pts), +1hp/level (2pts), scent (3pts), primary natural attack (4pts) --15pts
Forge dwarf- +2 Craft (1pt), +2 Spellcraft 1pt, +1 Fort (2pts), +1 Will (2pts), +1hp/lvl (2pts), +1 CMD (2pts), Darkvision (2pts), slow (-1pt), Fire Resistance 5 (4pts) --15pts
Grey dwarf- +1 Will (2pts), +1 natural armor (2pts), +1 CMD (2pts), darkvision (2pts), tremorsense (8pts), slow (-1) --15pts
Cloud sylph- +2 Acrobatics (1pt), +1 Initiative (1pt), fast (1pt), fly (12pts) --15pts
Ooze dude- +2 Intimidate, +2 Stealth (1pt), +2 Fort (4pts), +2 Ref (4pts), +1hp/lvl (2pts), +2 CMD (4pts), slow (-1pt) --15pts
Moon elf- +2 Diplomacy (1pt), +2 Knowledge (1pt), +2 Sense Motive (1pt), +2 Spellcraft (1pt), +1 Ref (2pts), +2 Will (4pts), low-light vision (1pt), bonus feat (4pts) --15pts
Wood elf- +2 Acrobatics (1pt), +4 Perception (2pts),+2 Stealth (1pt), +2 Survival (1pt), +2 Fort (4pts), +1 Ref (2pts), +2 Initiative (2pts), low-light vision (1pt), fast (1pt) --15pts
Tinker- +4 Craft (2pts), +2 Disable Device (1pt), +2 Knowledge (1pt), +4 Sleight of Hand (2pts), +2 Ref (4pts), +1 Will (2pts), +2 Initiative (2pts), darkvision (2pts), slow (-1pt) --15pts
Sylvan- +2 Acrobatics (1pt), +2 Heal, +2 Perception (1pt), +4 Stealth (2pts), +1 Fort (2pts), +1 Ref (2pts), +1 Will (2pts), low-light vision (1pt), climb (3pts) --15pts
Boggart- +2 Acrobatics (1pt), +2 Athletics (1pt), +2 Intimidate (1pt), +2 Perception (1pt), +2 Stealth (1pt), +1 Reflex (2pts), darkvision (2pts), scent (3pts), climb (3pts) --15pts
Orc- +2 Survival (1pt), +1 natural armor (2pts), +1hp/lvl (2pts), +1 Fort, (2pts), +1 Ref (2pts), +1 Will (2pts), +1 CMD (2pts), darkvision (2pts) --15pts
Human merchant- +2 Diplomacy (1pt), +2 Knowledge (1pt), +4 Profession (2pts), +2 Sense Motive, +1 Fort (2pts), +2 Will (4pts), bonus feat (4pts)
Human assassin- +2 Athletics (1pt), +2 Acrobatics (1pt), +2 Bluff (1pt), Disable Device (1pt), +2 Perception (1pt), +2 Sleight of Hand (1pt), +2 Stealth (1pts), +1 Ref (2pts) +1 Will (2pts), +4 Initiative (4pts) --15pts
Hunter droid- +2 Perception (1pt), +1 natural armor (2pts), +1 Fort (2pts), +1 Ref (2pts), +1 Will (2pts), Blindsense (6pts) --15pts
Ol' rust bucket- +2 natural armor (4pts), +2 CMD (4pts), primary natural weapon (4pts), secondary natural weapon (4pts), slow (-1pt) --15pts
Something else, for sure. I want to give people the opportunity to make something strange, with unusual or semi-potent abilities, so I figured I'd let people who wanted to play "regular" races give them a few little boosts to make up for it.
That's something i can totally understand, i don't even play with the ''full'' pathfinder game myself, i only use rules for E6 and i have bunch of homebrewed stuff too.
Oh yes. Right.
I was thinking that anything you can take multiple times comes with a maximum (+4 to skills and initiative, +2 to saves, AC, etc.), and everything that doesn't list a maximum can only be taken once (speed increase, bonus hp, etc).
Oh, that makes a lot of sense then. Nothing looks too broken at the first glance, but it looks like though races are not too hard to make with your system.
Hardy-folks:
+2 Natural Armor = 4 rp
+1 Hp/HD = 2 pts
+2 Fortitude = 4 rp
+2 Willpower = 4rp
Insert 1 rp abilities
Total: 15 RP
It's not too gamebreaking but they are gonna be though as far as usual race goes.
I think what could help a bit avoiding races that specialize way too much into specific traits would be to devide each trait into categories and assign a maximum number of point they can spend in that categorie. For example, you could go with those ones: Combat/Skills/Senses/Movement/Special Traits.
Sorry, let me clarify: I'm not looking for help with the existing system. I understand it just fine. I just think it's...pretty poorly made.
But then, I tend to find ways to trim the fat off bloated systems like Pathfinder 1e. So it's less about this specific subsystem and more the problems that systems like these run into in terms of over-development.
All good! I think it's mostly fine, you just gotta avoid ''gaming'' it. Imo, it's not a player tool, it's a DM tool to create races for their world.
Specifically though, I don't care for "this trait gives you +X to Y, but has a prerequisite of Z", or "you can select this multiple times, but each time the cost increases by X", along with all the overly specific stuff.
And then there's racial bonuses in general. "+X vs Y" feels needlessly complicated to me. Especially when you have players who struggle with bookkeeping like I do.
And even without their struggles, I've found a smaller, static bonus instead of a larger situational one to convey the desired feel just fine anyway, while being more streamline.
Also fair. I felt like the system you designed was a tad too bland for my taste, but if you're looking for generic then it looks fine. There's a few things that could be cool to add:
- Different Sizes: What do they do? Do they change attributes? Do they cost points?- Spell-like abilities.
- Maybe some special abilities? Stuff like breath weapons or racial poisons.
Well, hopes this helps a bit!
Under the standard RP system, you can get +8 Initiative for 7 RP (and it would come with the Run feat and a trait of your choice), so i don’t see being able to get +8 for 8 RP as problematic. For the others, it’s not clear that you can take arbitrary options e.g. Fast more than once in his proposed system; that’s an identical option that exists in the Official Race Builder system.
Excluding bonus to dexterity, i can get up to +6 for 4 rp, so i guess it's fair. Still, +6 to initiative as a racial bonus is a bit bonker. I haven't seen any race built that way either, but it's true that players with access to the race builder can build monstruosities.
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...it looks like though races are not too hard to make with your system...I think what could help a bit avoiding races that specialize way too much into specific traits would be to devide each trait into categories and assign a maximum number of point they can spend in that categorie.
Eh. I'm fine if they specialize. The more eggs they put into one basket, the less they have for the other baskets. And I think one of the big appeals of fantasy races is that they have those obvious strengths and weaknesses. Dwarves, elves and so on.
Imo, it's not a player tool, it's a DM tool to create races for their world.
Oh, no. I'll definitely be handing this over to players (see first post).
I felt like the system you designed was a tad too bland for my taste, but if you're looking for generic then it looks fine.
Definitely generic, yes. I've found that using simple rules to capture things in broad strokes gives just enough crunch to satisfy and helps to facilitate rich storytelling without getting lost in the numbers. But obviously I'm in the minority when it comes to this sort of mindset on these forums.
There's a few things that could be cool to add:
- Different Sizes: What do they do? Do they change attributes? Do they cost points?
- Spell-like abilities.
- Maybe some special abilities? Stuff like breath weapons or racial poisons.
Well, hopes this helps a bit!
I figured small and medium sizes, no cost, no attribute adjustments.
I'll have to think about the other stuff. I don't want to clutter up the process with too many options, but I'd like each facet to be represented at least a little.Thank you for your time and input.