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This post is dedicated to the submission, discussion, and publication of top-tier optimized builds in PF2e.
The intention is to understand the power balance between the classes by posting and discussing the most optimized builds possible for each class.
I will attempt to keep up with the comments and update this original post with new submissions for each class while listing their creator.
As for the rules:
1. All ancestries are allowed (including uncommon/rare).
2. All feats are allowed (including uncommon/rare).
3. All archetypes are allowed (including uncommon/rare).
3. Only common weapons unless accessed via a feat/ancestry.
4. Only common spells unless accessed via a feat/ancestry.
Special cases:
1. If used, Heaven's Thunder is assumed to work according to Paizo's suggested rework.
If your build doesn't follow these rules, just list in a 'Requirements' section which assumptions you're working with and provide alternative options.
To kick this off, here are Exocist's Optimal Builds.
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Alchemist
To be added.
Barbarian
To be added.
Bard
To be added.
Champion
To be added.
Cleric
To be added.
Druid
To be added.
Fighter
To be added.
Investigator
To be added.
Monk
To be added.
Oracle
To be added.
Ranger
To be added.
Rogue
To be added.
Sorcerer
To be added.
Swashbuckler
To be added.
Witch
To be added.
Wizard
To be added.
Build Collections
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I look forward to future submissions and discussions!
You'll probably find that you can only edit posts that are less than 1 hour old...
Yup. RIP.
Guess this won't be a compendium, and that my ignorance shall forever be seen on this post.
I'd still like to see people post some optimized builds posted here. Maybe like once per page or something you create a new post that gathers them all. I've seen other threads do something similar.
I'd still like to see people post some optimized builds posted here. Maybe like once per page or something you create a new post that gathers them all. I've seen other threads do something similar.
Good idea, I'll give it a shot :)
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Can I suggest a tweak to the frame? Don't fixate on proving the best build in a white-room situation. White room optimization tends to fall on its face in actual campaigns.
In fact, don't insist on proving the best build per class. It's much more interesting to show which classes have a lot of different strong, viable builds, and which classes are maybe much more narrow in what you can do with them.
I'd still like to see people post some optimized builds posted here. Maybe like once per page or something you create a new post that gathers them all. I've seen other threads do something similar.Good idea, I'll give it a shot :)What you could do is to edit che link within the opening post you provided ( Exocist's Optimal Builds ) with a generic one ( Optimal Builds ), which might work as a list of links ( build who will be posted within the thread ).
It would also require more effort than simply edit a post though.
Unfortunately, the link I put there is not mine.
Even if it were, I'm afraid it wouldn't be clear what would be its purpose.However, I do like the idea of keeping an editable document in the original post, so I think I will, in fact, do this with a new thread once I feel this thread slows down a bit, and direct people from here to the new thread.
Can I suggest a tweak to the frame? Don't fixate on proving the best build in a white-room situation. White room optimization tends to fall on its face in actual campaigns.
In fact, don't insist on proving the best build per class. It's much more interesting to show which classes have a lot of different strong, viable builds, and which classes are maybe much more narrow in what you can do with them.
This is pretty much what I meant.
I don't want people to argue on what is THE best build per class, but to put out a few of what they think are some top-performing builds that compete at a high-op table.Before I run wild in this thread (in a good way), I would like a clarification on what qualifies as a "top tier optimized build".
I admit that I don't have a strict definition for this, but I'll try:
A build that produces near the maximum amount of power/value that is possible for a given class in a generic adventure.You're welcome to suggest a different definition, though!
It seems like I'll for sure need to make a new thread sometime in the future that is better formatted and clearer, and these comments are definitely helping shape that.
In fact, if anyone has any other suggestions for the rules and goal of this post, I'm happy to hear them.
Builds with or without free archetypes?
Share builds using pathbuilder?
All levels, or just the general layout?
Categorize, or just functionally optimized per class? Like best DPR, or best buffer, etc.
I would think free archtype wouldn't be on the table, as it's not the standard.
And I don't know how Pathbuilder works, but if it's link to a build then I don't see why you couldn't include it, but writing out the build is probably better.
Unlike PF1 which was pretty terribly balanced on or about level 13, PF2 works pretty well at all levels, so it's reasonable to show builds out to 20. But it should come together much earlier. IMO, if you had to wait much beyond level 5 for you build to come together it's not something that's actually playable from a level 1 start. Or rather, will be very underperforming until that point.
The OP has already broken in down into classes, and classes just can't flex that hard outside their traditional role (at least as far as I've seen) and certainly without archetypes.
So I wouldn't really expect to see much need to categorize builds within a class very much. Like sure you can add Marshall to a Fighter and make a decent buffer, but that's not a fighter thing.
I think what we may need are separate entries for archetypes that shift the focus of a character away from it's traditional role.
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Before I run wild in this thread (in a good way), I would like a clarification on what qualifies as a "top tier optimized build".
I’ve always used the definition that it’s optimised for a particular combat role - even though it’s somewhat likely that wider builds will tend to be better (for instance fighter with bard archetype is IMO better than fighter with champion archetype if no one is currently providing those bonuses). A role-optimised build should theoretically be able to be put into a party with three other role-optimised characters to get a near-optimised party (they’ll likely be lacking extra synergy but should be most of the way there), wider builds its hard to say - by definition they’re sacrificing some power to get stuff that should be covered by someone else. Whether that’s necessary or not is another question.
So - what do you envision the class’ combat role to be, and how have you optimised for it? Is this the best class for doing this particular thing?
Yeah, in general I would say "optimized" could be a pretty general thing. Pick a class, pick a goal. How do you build a character that does that goal as effectively as possible?
Personally, I enjoy seeing that at the class level just to see how different classes do with the same goal. If you disagree, fair enough. Just remove "Pick a class" from my definition.
One of my favorite things about PF2 is that ideas like this tend to fall on their face. There is no ultimate optimized build.
Before I run wild in this thread (in a good way), I would like a clarification on what qualifies as a "top tier optimized build".I’ve always used the definition that it’s optimised for a particular combat role - even though it’s somewhat likely that wider builds will tend to be better (for instance fighter with bard archetype is IMO better than fighter with champion archetype if no one is currently providing those bonuses). A role-optimised build should theoretically be able to be put into a party with three other role-optimised characters to get a near-optimised party (they’ll likely be lacking extra synergy but should be most of the way there), wider builds its hard to say - by definition they’re sacrificing some power to get stuff that should be covered by someone else. Whether that’s necessary or not is another question.
So - what do you envision the class’ combat role to be, and how have you optimised for it? Is this the best class for doing this particular thing?
Why only optimize for combat?
And are we talking solo combat - you against one on-level opponent? Or do you have other players to synergize with too? Boss fight (party vs one high level opponent)? Or team battle (party vs 3 or 4 on-level opponents)? Or maybe even mook slaying. We could optimize for that too.
Before I run wild in this thread (in a good way), I would like a clarification on what qualifies as a "top tier optimized build".
I base optimization solely on individual combat ability in the most common battle situations. I don't consider situational effectiveness or hard to set up party combat tactics. Just simple what is your best build on a battlefield in the most common combat conditions.
You cannot always rely on party combat synergy and battlefields don't always lay out in a way that will be amenable to party tactics or fights just won't last that long. I want the best possible, most straightforward optimized combat build.
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Before I run wild in this thread (in a good way), I would like a clarification on what qualifies as a "top tier optimized build".I base optimization solely on individual combat ability in the most common battle situations. I don't consider situational effectiveness or hard to set up party combat tactics. Just simple what is your best build on a battlefield in the most common combat conditions.
You cannot always rely on party combat synergy and battlefields don't always lay out in a way that will be amenable to party tactics or fights just won't last that long. I want the best possible, most straightforward optimized combat build.
Yeah...I suspect the builds I will present might not be completely up your alley DF. No offense intended, mind you. I build characters for in and out of combat effectiveness.
Which does bring up a good point, OP, are such builds that 'optimize' for in and out of combat welcome?
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Before I run wild in this thread (in a good way), I would like a clarification on what qualifies as a "top tier optimized build".I base optimization solely on individual combat ability in the most common battle situations. I don't consider situational effectiveness or hard to set up party combat tactics. Just simple what is your best build on a battlefield in the most common combat conditions.
You cannot always rely on party combat synergy and battlefields don't always lay out in a way that will be amenable to party tactics or fights just won't last that long. I want the best possible, most straightforward optimized combat build.
Yeah...I suspect the builds I will present might not be completely up your alley DF. No offense intended, mind you. I build characters for in and out of combat effectiveness.
Which does bring up a good point, OP, are such builds that 'optimize' for in and out of combat welcome?
Personally, I like seeing different builds. I like combat builds, but I also like to see what other people do with their characters.
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One of my favorite things about PF2 is that ideas like this tend to fall on their face. There is no ultimate optimized build.
Before I run wild in this thread (in a good way), I would like a clarification on what qualifies as a "top tier optimized build".I’ve always used the definition that it’s optimised for a particular combat role - even though it’s somewhat likely that wider builds will tend to be better (for instance fighter with bard archetype is IMO better than fighter with champion archetype if no one is currently providing those bonuses). A role-optimised build should theoretically be able to be put into a party with three other role-optimised characters to get a near-optimised party (they’ll likely be lacking extra synergy but should be most of the way there), wider builds its hard to say - by definition they’re sacrificing some power to get stuff that should be covered by someone else. Whether that’s necessary or not is another question.
So - what do you envision the class’ combat role to be, and how have you optimised for it? Is this the best class for doing this particular thing?
Why only optimize for combat?
And are we talking solo combat - you against one on-level opponent? Or do you have other players to synergize with too? Boss fight (party vs one high level opponent)? Or team battle (party vs 3 or 4 on-level opponents)? Or maybe even mook slaying. We could optimize for that too.
There wasn’t an ultimate optimised build in 3.5 or PF1e either, but there were a lot of bad builds and a few good builds.
Why optimise for combat? Because it’s a lot more objective than optimising for non combat. Combat encounters tend to vary less in terms of goals, DCs and objectives from table to table, I’ve found.
Party of 4 is what I assume where you will be filling a needed “role” in the party. What these roles are is debatable, though I tend to prefer having 2 main damage dealers, a buffer, a debuffer/controller and a healer. Some overlap can be expected on the last 3 simply because casters cover multiple of these categories, but primary damage dealers tend to be solely relegated to martials unless you just fight hordes of opponents in short days.
One of my favorite things about PF2 is that ideas like this tend to fall on their face. There is no ultimate optimized build.
True, but that does not mean a look at more optimised or efficient combos in general is not worth while.
Multiple good builds is a great outcome.
Why only optimize for combat?And are we talking solo combat - you against one on-level opponent? Or do you have other players to synergize with too? Boss fight (party vs one high level opponent)? Or team battle (party vs 3 or 4 on-level opponents)? Or maybe even mook slaying. We could optimize for that too.
Define it however you wish it to be.
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Okay here is a build. I did it in Pathbuilder to check everything, but there may be some minor mistakes.
This is a very simple reach and trip fighter. Whose main combat goal it to get to use all his reactions as attacks with no MAP penalty. The Rogues Opportune Backstab may be better than the Swashbuckler Riposte but I could not fit it in without giving up on Lunge. Which is too important for reach.
The reason for Leshy is to get a Maul as a reach weapon. This prones on a critical hit, feeding into AoO. Shove is useful besides. We can always drop the reach back if we want more damage. Plus Heritage Root Leshy - extra trip resistance which is otherwise a major weakness for a low Dex buildin plate armour.
The build is reasonably balanced in combat. Initimdation is a nice debuff measure. Athletics to Trip and Shove gives it control options. It can use a bow but will not be great with it. It has the skill space to cover medicine.
Anything marked with a * is striclty optional.
Kikuyu the Leshy Fighter
Heritage Root Leshy - extra trip resistance for a low Dex build in plate armor
Ancestry Feats:
1 Grasping Reach - enable us to use a Maul as a reach weapon. This prones on a critical hit, feeding into AoO.
5 Harmlessly Cute * not essential to the build. In this case I just like the label as a roleplay cue
9 Multitalented => Swashbuckler Dedication with Style (Gymnast)
13 Undaunted *
17 Regrowth - strong magical healing, why not.
Background:
Bandit. Kikuyu started out alone in like without any parents or guidance. Now that Kikuyu is 4 we knows many things, and has learned how to be a good person and follow rules. (Tip gender is one of the things Kikuyu hasn't worked out)
General Feats:
3 Toughness
7 Adopted Ancestry (Human)
11 Fleet
15 Prescient Planner *
19 Prescient Consumable *
Class Feats:
1 Sudden Charge - our normal movement action saver ability
2 Champion Dedication
4 Swipe - Whirlwind Strike light
6 Champion's Reaction - Retributive Strike
8 Lunge
10 Combat Reflexes
12 Lunging Stance
14 Whirlwind Strike
16 Swashbuckler's Riposte
18 Savage Critical
20 Boundless Reprisals
Combat Flexibility and Improved Flexibility will be in Knockdown and Improved Knockdown
Ability Scores Level 1:
Str+4 18
Dex+1 12
Con+2 14
Int-1 8
Wis+1 12
Cha+2 14
Ability Scores Level 20:
Str+7 24
Dex+2 14
Con+5 20
Int-1 8
Wis+4 18
Cha+5 20
Skills:
Trained: Acrobatics, Diplomacy, Religion, Stealth, Terrain Lore
Expert: Medicine, Survival
Legendary: Intimidation, Athletics
Skill Feats:
BG Group Coercion
2 Intimidating Glare
4 Intimidating Prowess
6 Titan Wrestler
8 Battle Cry
10 Continual Recovery
12 Battle Medicine *
14 Combat Climber *
16 Scare to Death
18 Hefty Hauler *
20 Lasting Coercion *
Equipment:
Plate armor
Maul
Belt of Giant Strength
Mask of the Banshee
Composite Long Bow, though we aren't very good with it.
Potion of Quickness
Winged Boots
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You can’t use Combat Flexibility for feat prerequisites unfortunately, so using the level 9 for knockdown to get improved later is a no go (it doesn’t give you the feat, just the effects of the feat). Fortunately easily fixable, just put Knockdown at 4 by retrain when you get to level 15, and shove Swipe (or whatever other feat you want) in the level 9 slot.
Otherwise looks solid.
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Giant Instinct Barbarian
Basic Build: Only including feats and some general ideas of ancestry.
Ancestry: Choose one that eventually gets you permanent flight. Movement in 3 dimensions is a huge boon and saves casters slots and actions if they don’t have to cast it on you. If you can move in three dimensions, you can eliminate damage taken and engage in more tactical movement.
Feats
1: Sudden Charge (You could also take Raging Thrower here or retrain to Raging Intimidation)
2: Champion Dedication (Paladin-recall this will make you generally Lawful or Neutral good and give you anathemas which you cannot break even while raging or you will lose abilities) or Raging Intimidation
4: Swipe (situational early ability to hit two targets, can be powerful if situation sets up), but this kind of a free feat.
6: Champion Reaction (Retrain to Basic Maneuver (Sudden Charge or Intimidating Strike) at level 20) or Attack of Opportunity
8: Giant Stature
10: Renewed Vigor (I like some defense and I don’t like Incapacitation Effects)
12: Titan’s Stature
14: Whirlwind Strike
16: Penetrating Projectile if you want a little ranged ability to use with Raging Thrower or Shattering Blows if you just want to obliterate hazards or creatures with hardness. There are a lot of Hazards in PF2 with Hardness and some creatures that Shattering Blows will help you hammer through.
18: Brutal Critical (I like criticals with this build.)
20: Unstoppable Juggernaut (Resisting damage is fun.)
Note on Heavy Armor: Heavy Armor has its advantage, but it slows you down. One thing you will find in PF2 is that mobility is important and one of the most powerful defensive and offensive abilities. If you can out move your enemy while still attacking, you can beat them easily. Mobility combined with action economy is incredibly powerful. I don’t like even the 5 foot reduction in movement from heavy armor for the very minor advantages it provides.
Notes on Saves: I have found that the worst saves to fail in order are Fortitude, Reflex, then Will.
Fortitude saves usually do some kind of nasty poison or disease or negative damage with riders like sickened or drained. Not great at all.
Reflex saves usually do high damage and there are not as many ways to mitigate energy damage any longer. Even an energy resist cast as a 7th level spell will give you a 15 energy resistance for 10 minutes. Let’s say Mr. Ancient Red dragon blasts you with his breath weapon with a DC 42 Basic Reflex save hits you with his breath weapon for 20d6 fire damage rolling his average 70 damage. Gee, you knocked that down to 55. But what if you critically fail? Well, you just took 140 points of damage. 125 with your resist energy. In fact, your whole party likely took some of this damage. And the dragon is still 40 feet away flying in the air waiting to see who looks the most hammered before he flies down and dragon flurries on them. My experience is it is worse to fail reflex saves and Will saves. I have seen entire parties decimated due to failed reflex saves.
Will saves in general are against stun, fear, and similar effects. Still not great to fail, but there are abilities that can counter fear and stun. Both effects generally reduce on their own. Mental damage is usually lower than energy damage. You can often recover quicker from a Will save fail or even critical fail than a party can recover from a bad round of reflex saves. Though there are a few spell exceptions if cast by the right enemy at the right time like calm emotions or phantasmal calamity. You will deal with these spells less often. You get new saves to resist some will save effects each round.
Note on Stats:
You get 4 +2 stat bonuses every 5 levels (+1 if your stat is 18 or higher). You can easily build up most core statistics to a decent level with a moderate starting investment.
Note on Reaction Attacks:
Reaction based attacks are good. You should as a martial always want at least one reaction based attack with a trigger that occurs reasonably often. But you don’t need to build so completely around them that you forego other feats that will be useful more often.
Reaction based attacks have limitations. Those limitations are often in the hand of the enemy, not the character. A 5 foot move can counter an AoO. Foregoing attacking or using reach can counter Opportune Riposte. Attacking the Champion rather than his allies or simply being out of range of the Champion Reaction can counter a Champion Reaction. The most commonly activated reaction attack is the rogue’s Opportune Riposte because it activates off the actions of allies who you can coordinate with. On top of that, the party has to be well coordinated and in position at nearly all times to take advantage of reaction based attacks and from what I’ve seen, that doesn’t happen too often.
But what about trip? Combat maneuvers increase MAP and aren't always effective. Some character may use a Trip to knock a creature down to set up AoOs when it stands up, but they are giving up their first MAPless attack to do that and it may fail. Boss monsters have extremely high saves and even Combat Maneuvers will have maybe a 40% or so chance of working. The idea that trip works often is not one I've experienced.
On top of that, enemies have limited hit point pools. You may not get a reaction based attack because the enemy died and you aren’t in position to take them on anyone else.
That’s one of the reasons why I found the criticism of the barbarian for a lack of a second reaction kind of ridiculous. The Giant Instinct Barbarian ended so many fights with regular hits and critical hits, he demoralized the Swashbuckler player. All it took was a sudden lucky critical hit and most of the stuff died or was close to death after getting hit by the Giant Instinct Barbarian. No reaction based attack needed to finish the job.
Weapon Choice: For a Giant Instinct Barbarian, you want a big weapon to crit fish with. Critical hits by a Giant Instinct Barbarian are combat finishers. You crit even once, the thing you hit is usually all done. Game is over for that creature. It’s just waiting for someone to finish it and it doesn’t have to be you as you move to the next creature letting the other folk finished the barely living mess you left behind.
Greatpick: It has the Fatal D12 trait which adds a dice to a critical hit and increases all the d10s to d12.
Ogre Hook: Also in the pick family, but had deadly d10. Deadly D10 will add up to 3 d10 deadly dice when you get a Major Striking damage weapon on a critical hit.
Why picks? Their critical specialization effect is 2 additional damage per weapon attack die. This is an unnamed bonus and will stack with status and circumstance bonuses to damage.
What is your damage with a Greater Striking greatpick at lvl 16:
Regular Hit: 3d10 + 5 str + +6 weapon specialization +18 rage = 45 points of damage.
Critical Hit: 7d12 +10 str +12 spec +36 rage + 6 crit spec pick = 109
It will just get worse as you add energy runes and get a major striking weapon.
What is this build optimized to do?
1. Maximum critical hit damage and damage in general.
Advantages:
1. Highest damage bonus per hit in the game with the least limitations or disadvantages.
2. Reach will be 15 feet once you obtain Titan Stature. This will set off Attack of Opportunity more often and allow you to take advantage of Swipe and Whirlwind Attack more often.
3. Reach has an additional advantage of extending your movement by the reach distance.
4. Your size will prevent you from being swallowed whole as easily. Swallowed Whole is nasty in PF2.
Disadvantages:
1. You will take a beating with your AC reduced by 2 when raging. This can be real painful at lower levels. You will get hit a lot and dropped at early levels. It sucks to get dropped because you lose your rage.
2. You’re a one trick pony. You rage and hit things. If you feel like building for charisma, you can do a little intimidation. But you’re better off letting a charisma caster do the intimidating.
3. Everything you fight is going to focus on killing you because the enemies don’t want to get hit by you. You will rip apart battlefields and absolutely should be stopped.
You can’t use Combat Flexibility for feat prerequisites unfortunately, so using the level 9 for knockdown to get improved later is a no go (it doesn’t give you the feat, just the effects of the feat). Fortunately easily fixable, just put Knockdown at 4 by retrain when you get to level 15, and shove Swipe (or whatever other feat you want) in the level 9 slot.
Otherwise looks solid.
For other feats yes but within the flexibility feats it works fine
Your extensive experience gives you even greater ability to adapt to each day’s challenges. When you use combat flexibility, you can gain two fighter feats instead of one. While the first feat must still be 8th level or lower, the second feat can be up to 14th level, and you can use the first feat to meet the prerequisites of the second feat. You must meet all of the feats’ prerequisites.
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You can’t use Combat Flexibility for feat prerequisites unfortunately, so using the level 9 for knockdown to get improved later is a no go (it doesn’t give you the feat, just the effects of the feat). Fortunately easily fixable, just put Knockdown at 4 by retrain when you get to level 15, and shove Swipe (or whatever other feat you want) in the level 9 slot.
Otherwise looks solid.
For other feats yes but within the flexibility feats it works fine
Your extensive experience gives you even greater ability to adapt to each day’s challenges. When you use combat flexibility, you can gain two fighter feats instead of one. While the first feat must still be 8th level or lower, the second feat can be up to 14th level, and you can use the first feat to meet the prerequisites of the second feat. You must meet all of the feats’ prerequisites.
Ah missed that. My bad.
Another Build
Axel the Dwarven Fighter Druid
Heritage Elemental Heart Dwarf
Ancestry Feats:
1 Dwarven Weapon Familiarity *
5 Defy the Darkness *
9 Mountain’s Stoutness
13 Energy Blessed
17 Stonegate *
Background:
Field Medic. Axel a lowly army medic who never really fitted in in dwarven society. Then he began to appreciate nature and became an almost toal outcast. So now he adventures to protect the wild.
General Feats:
3 Toughness
7 Feather Step
11 Fleet *
15 Canny Acumen *
19 Supertaster *
Class Feats:
1 Sudden Charge - our normal movement action saver ability
2 Druid Dedication - guidance and detect magic
4 Basic Wilding => Wild Shape feat and spell Wild Shape
6 Advanced Wilding => Poison Resistance * but needs to get the 3rd dedication feat
8 Martial Artist Dedication to get your Fighter Weapon Mastery on all unarmed attacks. Retrain away from it at level 19 when it is no longer needed. Maybe Swipe or Basic Druid Spellcasting
10 Combat Reflexes
12 Advanced Wilding => Thousand Faces for a normal humanoid form with Enlarge.
14 Whirlwind Strike
16 Advanced Wilding => Ferocious Shape
18 Savage Critical
20 Boundless Reprisals
Combat Flexibility and Improved Flexibility will be in Knockdown and Improved Knockdown, but Swipe and Certain Stike are nice too.
Ability Scores Level 1:
Str+4 18
Dex+1 14
Con+2 14
Int-1 10
Wis+1 14
Cha+2 8
Ability Scores Level 20:
Str+7 24
Dex+2 20
Con+5 20
Int-1 10
Wis+4 20
Cha+5 8
Skills:
Trained: Nature, Intimidation, Survival, Stealth Warfare Lore
Master: Acrobatics
Legendary: Medicine, Athletics
Skill Feats:
BG Battle Medicine
2 Continual Recovery
4 Assurance Medicine
6 Ward Medic
8
10 Kip Up
12 Robust Recovery
14
16 Legendary Medic
18
20
Equipment:
Hide armor
A backup melee weapon, say Dwarven War Axe.
Magical Handwraps
Belt of Giant Strength
Composite Long Bow
Potion of Quickness
This is a wild shape reach and trip fighter. Its main claim to fame is that it is a consistent +4 to hit more than Deriven Firelion's Giant Barbarian. If he has a Bard helping the Giant Barbarian, then we can have a Bard with Dirge of Doom helping us. In that sense this build is broken and too strong. It will cause all the problems that Treantmonk complained about of dominating the table. For the record at level 16 it is doing damage of 4d6 +15 damage bonus +8 legendary weapon specialization but with 25ft of reach.
The only point to Martial Artist Dedication to get your Fighter Weapon Mastery on all unarmed attacks - which is a problem from level 5 to 19.
It could squeeze in another reaction attack. But I like to have the option to fight in Humaoind Form and use weapons as a fall back.
It could use Dragon Disciple => Scales of the Dragon as a kobold for 2 extra AC but I don't like the image or the ability score problems.
It will run into rules problems is some areas.
1) Athletics check to trip/grab/shove while in a battle form. There is wide spread concensus that this should work even though it doesn't. But it doesnt really stop the main part of the build.
2) Additional damage is not a damage bonus so it adds (maybe it shouldn't but this is the guidance we have from Mark)
3) Some people will argue about how to calculate the to hit number of the untransformed character. I'm am broadly confident that I have it correct.
Very happy if Paizo crush this build by providing a fix. But as long as it doesn't crush all the normal uses of Battle Forms at the same time.
Tip ban this build at your table.
Anything marked with a * is strictly optional and not a key part of the build.
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Ancestry: Choose one that eventually gets you permanent flight. Movement in 3 dimensions is a huge boon and saves casters slots and actions if they don’t have to cast it on you. If you can move in three dimensions, you can eliminate damage taken and engage in more tactical movement.
I mean I agree but all the ones that include flight are uncommon+, hence why I didn't include them. Usually, I'd go with Aasimar (Celestial Strikes is also quite good) or Beastkin (Fly for Precise Tremorsense+Flight or Bat for Precise Echolocation+Flight, not sure which is better).
Feats
1: Sudden Charge (You could also take Raging Thrower here or retrain to Raging Intimidation)
2: Champion Dedication (Paladin-recall this will make you generally Lawful or Neutral good and give you anathemas which you cannot break even while raging or you will lose abilities) or Raging Intimidation
4: Swipe (situational early ability to hit two targets, can be powerful if situation sets up), but this kind of a free feat.
6: Champion Reaction (Retrain to Basic Maneuver (Sudden Charge or Intimidating Strike) at level 20) or Attack of Opportunity
8: Giant Stature
10: Renewed Vigor (I like some defense and I don’t like Incapacitation Effects)
12: Titan’s Stature
14: Whirlwind Strike
16: Penetrating Projectile if you want a little ranged ability to use with Raging Thrower or Shattering Blows if you just want to obliterate hazards or creatures with hardness. There are a lot of Hazards in PF2 with Hardness and some creatures that Shattering Blows will help you hammer through.
18: Brutal Critical (I like criticals with this build.)
20: Unstoppable Juggernaut (Resisting damage is fun.)Note on Heavy Armor: Heavy Armor has its advantage, but it slows you down. One thing you will find in PF2 is that mobility is important and one of the most powerful defensive and offensive abilities. If you can out move your enemy while still attacking, you can beat them easily. Mobility combined with action economy is incredibly powerful. I don’t like even the 5 foot reduction in movement from heavy armor for the very minor advantages it provides.
5 foot speed doesn't matter too much - you can easily recoup that and more. Longstrider wand from Trick Magic Item is +10, Fleet is +5, Greater Boots of Bounding is +10 though most other boots give +5. With all that combined, you're sitting at 40 foot speed with Heavy, 45 foot without it. Well worth the extra AC and the ability to invest in Charisma I'd say.
I'm not a huge fan of Swipe. It just doesn't show up often enough in my experience, though yours might differ.
Renewed Vigor is preference. Seeing as Barb will end up making Basic Strikes quite often, Silencing Strike is practically free even if it has a low chance to do something. Stunned 1 is quite powerful, and the incapacitation doesn't matter too much because it's free - you're essentially enhancing every basic Strike you make in the future.
I also don't like getting Raging Thrower or any other ranged feats, because they require the Dex investment if you don't want bad accuracy (which means no Cha investment). Instead, I'd sink an ancestry feat into Unconventional Weaponry (Gnome Flickmace) and use my free hand for a useful scroll, potion or whatever to get flight before I started raging (before I have perma-flight).
Brutal Critical I don't think does enough because the effect is so minor. I prefer having the extra defensive ability myself.
Unstoppable Juggernaut vs Certain Strike is personal preference. Certain Strike definitely improves your damage by a lot.
Will saves in general are against stun, fear, and similar effects. Still not great to fail, but there are abilities that can counter fear and stun. Both effects generally reduce on their own. Mental damage is usually lower than energy damage. You can often recover quicker from a Will save fail or even critical fail than a party can recover from a bad round of reflex saves. Though there are a few spell exceptions if cast by the right enemy at the right time like calm emotions or phantasmal calamity. You will deal with these spells less often. You get new saves to resist some will save effects each round.
My experience is the complete opposite. Reflex saves are able to be healed off provided your whole party doesn't bunch up and get hit by 3 of them in a row. They're just damage, hence the least important. Will saves are by far the most important to me, because you have instant kill effects like Phantasmal Killer, as well as "lose your character" or "kill your party" effects like Feeblemind or Dominate, both of which I have seen take out a PC. By contrast, I've never seen a reflex save take out a PC past level like 5 or so. Fort I'd rate as second most important.
You get 4 +2 stat bonuses every 5 levels (+1 if your stat is 18 or higher). You can easily build up most core statistics to a decent level with a moderate starting investment.
At level 20 yes, you can get a decent number of 18s. Before that, not so much, you'll have tradeoffs everywhere. Better to focus on the thing that helps you do your role in this case.
Weapon Choice: For a Giant Instinct Barbarian, you want a big weapon to crit fish with. Critical hits by a Giant Instinct Barbarian are combat finishers. You crit even once, the thing you hit is usually all done. Game is over for that creature. It’s just waiting for someone to finish it and it doesn’t have to be you as you move to the next creature letting the other folk finished the barely living mess you left behind.
Greatpick: It has the Fatal D12 trait which adds a dice to a critical hit and increases all the d10s to d12.
Ogre Hook: Also in the pick family, but had deadly d10. Deadly D10 will add up to 3 d10 deadly dice when you get a Major Striking damage weapon on a critical hit.
Why picks? Their critical specialization effect is 2 additional damage per weapon attack die. This is an unnamed bonus and will stack with status and circumstance bonuses to damage.
What is your damage with a Greater Striking greatpick at lvl 16:
Regular Hit: 3d10 + 5 str + +6 weapon specialization +18 rage = 45 points of damage.
Critical Hit: 7d12 +10 str +12 spec +36 rage + 6 crit spec pick = 109
It will just get worse as you add energy runes and get a major striking weapon.
Lets talk about the Greatpick, and why I don't like it. Simply put, the difference in damage is not large enough past the early levels to make up for the lack of alternate effects and support in my opinion. Proning an enemy means they must stand (provoking) or be unable to move at all without crawling (provoking) and take a -2 to melee attack rolls. That's well worth a loss of damage alone, in my opinion, without even factoring in the fact that the Meteor Hammer has Reach, but lets see how much extra damage the Greatpick actually gives you relatively.
Level 12
Meteor Hammer - 3d8+2d6+10 (instinct)+5 (strength)+2 weapon spec = 38.5, Crit = 77.
Greatpick - 3d10+2d6+10+5+2 = 41.5, Crit = 7d12+4d6+20+10+6+4 = 99.5. Approximately a 25% growth in damage on a crit, but still nowhere near enough to one-shot a level 10-12 monster (who has about 175-215 hit points on average).
This only gets worse for the greatpick as you level up further, the damage differential between it and the Meteor Hammer in terms of % actually shrinks as you start getting more flat bonuses to damage (the 3rd property rune, greater weapon spec, bigger flat rage bonus).
Greatpick Crits at level 1-4 one shot things, once you get to later levels not so much. They look impressive, but don't tend to kill anything that isn't already severely wounded.
My giant barbarian group doesn't have a bard. Would have made that group even nastier. It had a Curse Witch with synesthesia.
I've been playing around with the idea of a fighter with druid MC with wild shape. That would be interesting.
I only ban a build at a table if it for some reason can't lose. I don't see that build as not able to lose. The build gets a +2 status bonus to attack which would not stack with a status bonus from a spell or ability.
Are you trying to imply that enlarge from Thousand Faces would receive the +2 status bonus to hit? I would not allow that. Thousand Faces does not have a default attack modifier.
My experience is the complete opposite. Reflex saves are able to be healed off provided your whole party doesn't bunch up and get hit by 3 of them in a row. They're just damage, hence the least important. Will saves are by far the most important to me, because you have instant kill effects like Phantasmal Killer, as well as "lose your character" or "kill your party" effects like Feeblemind or Dominate, both of which I have seen take out a PC. By contrast, I've never seen a reflex save take out a PC past level like 5 or so. Fort I'd rate as second most important.
How are you not bunching up setting up for reaction attacks or in a dungeon?
Normally I would agree with you. In PF1 you had mass heal, so you didn't really have to worry about AoE. Will was far more dangerous.
I have seen a critical fail reflex save take out the healer.
I have seen it decimate a party where only 3 people of six were left standing because 3 critically failed. Bad luck because one was a ranger who should have critically succeeded.
I watched two invisible, flying casters that spread out decimate the group to the point they thought they were going to TPK hammering them with reflex save spells. Champion's Reaction couldn't stop them because they were too far away. That 15 foot range for enemy and allies is a real factor. They got smashed over and over again making two reflex saves a round from AoE spells from the ambush. Took a minute to spread out and start moving.
Most of the will saves I deal with do some temporary or minor effect, fear being the most common.
In PF2 the strongest heal is a single target heal. AoE heal maxes at 10d8 for the base heal action for 3 actions in a 30 foot radius. You can use moment of renewal if you have it, but only once per day. Thus getting hammered by reflex attacks is a nightmare, especially while fighting martial enemies as well.
That is my experience. Invisible flying blaster casters, highly mobile dragons in open space or bad terrain, liches with giant warrior servants standing in front of them launching chain lightning and eclipse burst where the negative damage heals himself it gets real nasty. Healers can only heal so fast when your group is getting deluged with damage.
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Another Build
Axel the Dwarven Fighter Druid
Heritage Elemental Heart Dwarf
Ancestry Feats:
1 Dwarven Weapon Familiarity *
5 Defy the Darkness *
9 Mountain’s Stoutness
13 Energy Blessed
17 Stonegate *Background:
Field Medic. Axel a lowly army medic who never really fitted in in dwarven society. Then he began to appreciate nature and became an almost toal outcast. So now he adventures to protect the wild.General Feats:
3 Toughness
7 Feather Step
11 Fleet *
15 Canny Acumen *
19 Supertaster *Class Feats:
1 Sudden Charge - our normal movement action saver ability
2 Druid Dedication - guidance and detect magic
4 Basic Wilding => Wild Shape feat and spell Wild Shape
6 Advanced Wilding => Poison Resistance * but needs to get the 3rd dedication feat
8 Martial Artist Dedication to get your Fighter Weapon Mastery on all unarmed attacks. Retrain away from it at level 19 when it is no longer needed. Maybe Swipe or Basic Druid Spellcasting
10 Combat Reflexes
12 Advanced Wilding => Thousand Faces for a normal humanoid form with Enlarge.
14 Whirlwind Strike
16 Advanced Wilding => Ferocious Shape
18 Savage Critical
20 Boundless ReprisalsCombat Flexibility and Improved Flexibility will be in Knockdown and Improved Knockdown, but Swipe and Certain Stike are nice too.
Ability Scores Level 1:
Str+4 18
Dex+1 14
Con+2 14
Int-1 10
Wis+1 14
Cha+2 8Ability Scores Level 20:
Str+7 24
Dex+2 20
Con+5 20
Int-1 10
Wis+4 20
Cha+5 8Skills:
Trained: Nature, Intimidation, Survival, Stealth Warfare Lore
Master: Acrobatics
Legendary: Medicine, AthleticsSkill Feats:
BG Battle Medicine
2 Continual Recovery
4 Assurance Medicine
6 Ward Medic
8
10 Kip Up
12 Robust Recovery
14
16 Legendary Medic
18
20Equipment:
Hide armor
A backup melee weapon, say Dwarven War Axe.
Magical Handwraps
Belt of Giant Strength
Composite Long Bow
Potion of QuicknessThis is a wild shape reach and trip fighter. Its main claim to fame is that it is a...
This build isn't actually as good as it looks past level 10ish, Wild Shape damage doesn't quite keep up enough , especially as status bonuses become more common. The damage scaling just doesn't keep up on Wild Shape.
At level 6-9 that's the best fighter build, past there not so much.
My giant barbarian group doesn't have a bard. Would have made that group even nastier. It had a Curse Witch with synesthesia.
I've been playing around with the idea of a fighter with druid MC with wild shape. That would be interesting.
I only ban a build at a table if it for some reason can't lose. I don't see that build as not able to lose. The build gets a +2 status bonus to attack which would not stack with a status bonus from a spell or ability.
Are you trying to imply that enlarge from Thousand Faces would receive the +2 status bonus to hit? I would not allow that. Thousand Faces does not have a default attack modifier.
Thousand Faces is just a backup mode and not even a Battle form using it for when unarmed attacks are a poor choice. No it doesn't get the status bonus. Normally would be fighting in dinosaur form and yes there is +2 for being a fighter and +2 status bonus.
This build isn't actually as good as it looks past level 10ish, Wild Shape damage doesn't quite keep up enough , especially as status bonuses become more common. The damage scaling just doesn't keep up on Wild Shape.Here's a comparison of the damage of Dino/Animal Form fighter at 13+ to a standard Maul fighter using Strike->Certain Strike->Certain Strike
At level 6-9 that's the best fighter build, past there not so much.
I can't see how he did his numbers. I suspect the static bonuses are out and he hasn't factored in the always on +2 to hit. But for starters that analysis has two obvious flaws.
1) he is not giving Certain Strike to the wildshape fighter. Which is just wrong he can have it too.2) he is comparing a d12 maul which has no reach before lunge with a build with 25ft reach baked in.
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This build isn't actually as good as it looks past level 10ish, Wild Shape damage doesn't quite keep up enough , especially as status bonuses become more common. The damage scaling just doesn't keep up on Wild Shape.Here's a comparison of the damage of Dino/Animal Form fighter at 13+ to a standard Maul fighter using Strike->Certain Strike->Certain Strike
At level 6-9 that's the best fighter build, past there not so much.
I can't see how he did his numbers. I suspect the static bonuses are out and he hasn't factored in the always on +2 to hit. But for starters that analysis has two obvious flaws.
1) he is not giving Certain Strike to the wildshape fighter. Which is just wrong he can have it too.
2) he is comparing a d12 maul which has no reach before lunge with a build with 25ft reach baked in.
The +2 to hit is definitely on (hence why it says +4 on the dino/animal attacks, it's Druid wild shape accuracy +4 = fighter wild shape accuracy).
If the Dino has Certain Strike that means no Combat Reflexes.
The Reach is obviously a big consideration, but it's not broken, you are trading out a fair amount of damage per round for that reach.
Meteor Hammer - 3d8+2d6+10 (instinct)+5 (strength)+2 weapon spec = 38.5, Crit = 77.
Greatpick - 3d10+2d6+10+5+2 = 41.5, Crit = 7d12+4d6+20+10+6+4 = 99.5. Approximately a 25% growth in damage on a crit, but still nowhere near enough to one-shot a level 10-12 monster (who has about 175-215 hit points on average).
This only gets worse for the greatpick as you level up further, the damage differential between it and the Meteor Hammer in terms of % actually shrinks as you start getting more flat bonuses to damage (the 3rd property rune, greater weapon spec, bigger flat rage bonus).
Greatpick Crits at level 1-4 one shot things, once you get to later levels not so much. They look impressive, but don't tend to kill anything that isn't already severely wounded.
Pick build is strictly about maximizing critical hits. We had a very high damage group with a Swashbuckler, Druid, Witch, Ranger Archer, and a Barbarian Giant.
Only the swash and I had reaction attacks and were in melee range. The druid did tons of damage with AoE spells, focus spells, and a bow. That group hammered so hard at range, by the time the swash and barbarian moved into range things were already hurt.
If the Dino has Certain Strike that means no Combat Reflexes.
No, The level 12 feat Thousand Faces is quite optional he can have both.
At level 16-20 the difference is 4d6+15 versus 4d12+7 which is 29 verus 33
Any extra damage from +8 weapons specialisation + 2d6 from extra runes on his weapon applies to both, as hand wraps on runes work. Thats what Marks statement on aditional damage not being a damage bonus does. Feel free to disagree with that interpretation, but we can mark that as a dependancy of the build and move that to one of the dozen or so threads on it. I do realise the rules disagreements people will have with this.
There is only a difference of 4 damage between them - which is more than countered by the massive reach advantage and the extra +2 to hit.
Greatpick Crits
with a Grevious rune are spectacular. Fun is what this game is about after all.
Greatpick Critswith a Grevious rune are spectacular. Fun is what this game is about after all.
Optimize mostly, but never forget the fun as well. True, true.
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At level 16-20 the difference is 4d6+15 versus 4d12+7 which is 29 verus 33
Any extra damage from +8 weapons specialisation + 2d6 from extra runes on his weapon applies to both, as hand wraps on runes work. Thats what Marks statement on aditional damage not being a damage bonus does. Feel free to disagree with that interpretation, but we can mark that as a dependancy of the build and move that to one of the dozen or so threads on it. I do realise the rules disagreements people will have with this.
There is only a difference of 4 damage between them - which is more than countered by the massive reach advantage and the extra +2 to hit.
I suppose you want the 15 reach brontosaurus, otherwise it would be 4d8+15 vs 4d12+7 which is equal. It’s possible that the calculator doesn’t account for either weapon spec or property runes then. I definitely put property runes in, but can’t see if weapon spec is applying in the backend.
Let’s try to recreate the numbers
@20
Base hit chance vs moderate AC 75%
Maul: 4d12+15+3d6 (51.5) damage
Bronto: 4d6+23+3d6 (47.5) damage
Maul damage w/ Certain Strike= 0.75 (51.5)+0.25(51.5)+0.5(51.5)+0.05(51.5)+0.25(51.5)+0.05(5.15)
+0.45(15)+0.45(15)=1.85(51.5)+0.9(15)=108.775
Bronto damage w/o Certain Strike = 0.85(47.5)+0.35(47.5)+0.6(47.5)+0.1(47.5)+0.35(47.5)
+0.05(47.5)=2.3(47.5)=109.25
Definitely looks like the calculator is lacking weapon spec.
I would suggest going human over dwarf (or even adopting into human) so you can multitalented monk at 9 and grab flurry of blows somewhere. Given the large flat bonus on damage, maybe Flurry at 12 and Certain Strike at 15 with flexibility?
The highest martial damage dealer past level 16:
Fighter + Alchemist Dedication + Feral Mutagen + Monk Dedication + Flurry of Blows.
40% more damage than a Greatsword Giant Barbarian, just unbeatable.
And as you deal most of your damage in one action, it's also an extremely flexible build. Hands down the most efficient martial damage dealer in the game.
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Before I run wild in this thread (in a good way), I would like a clarification on what qualifies as a "top tier optimized build".I base optimization solely on individual combat ability in the most common battle situations. I don't consider situational effectiveness or hard to set up party combat tactics. Just simple what is your best build on a battlefield in the most common combat conditions.
IMO that's a bad and misrepresentative thing in PF2. PF2 is unlike PF1 where your numbers were so good that you just blew threw an encounter. In PF2 if you don't strategize and work together "standard" encounters will be much more challenging. The way players win is through situational buffs. If you compare numbers to an on level enemy they are usually slightly better to equal. But that's usually the base level of challenge. You will commonly encounter enemies 1 to 2 (or even as much as 4) levels above you and then the raw numbers are very much not in your favor.
You're not wrong that it makes the analysis very hard to do, because you're building only a single character vs a party. And you don't have other people to coordinate tactics with.
Before I run wild in this thread (in a good way), I would like a clarification on what qualifies as a "top tier optimized build".I base optimization solely on individual combat ability in the most common battle situations. I don't consider situational effectiveness or hard to set up party combat tactics. Just simple what is your best build on a battlefield in the most common combat conditions.IMO that's a bad and misrepresentative thing in PF2. PF2 is unlike PF1 where your numbers were so good that you just blew threw an encounter. In PF2 if you don't strategize and work together "standard" encounters will be much more challenging. The way players win is through situational buffs. If you compare numbers to an on level enemy they are usually slightly better to equal. But that's usually the base level of challenge. You will commonly encounter enemies 1 to 2 (or even as much as 4) levels above you and then the raw numbers are very much not in your favor.
You're not wrong that it makes the analysis very hard to do, because you're building only a single character vs a party. And you don't have other people to coordinate tactics with.
You are right in that situational tactics do matter. But as you stated, they are hard to quantify as they vary by group. My group doesn't like to force people into roles or classes. They let the person play what they feel like trying, then figure out how to make it as good as possible.
In reality, most of the modifiers on a per combat basis are pretty simple. Get flank or flat-footed somehow. Get some kind of debuff like frightened, clumsy, or sickened to lower AC/saves. Try to get some kind of buff like a status or circumstance bonus. You don't always get all of them, but as long as you get flank/flat-footed and maybe frightened 1, you're good most of the time.
That's what I consider the most common combat situations. You don't need to have a bard every time or every bonus. You just need the most common ones to make it all work.
Which is why we all just prefer to focus on making the most optimized combat character on an individual basis, then figure out how we're going to make it all work together.
In one campaign right now, we have an Ancestor Oracle Monk MC. So far that class has been very effective quite often mixing it up with spells, melee, and skill combat maneuvers letting her ancestor at the time guide their actions. The player has optimized the build to take advantage of the various bonuses received at various times. So far it has worked to surprisingly good effect.
I thought the ancestor oracle would suck, but so far they have not sucked. We're only lvl 9 though, so we'll see how it goes.
The highest martial damage dealer past level 16:
Fighter + Alchemist Dedication + Feral Mutagen + Monk Dedication + Flurry of Blows.
40% more damage than a Greatsword Giant Barbarian, just unbeatable.
And as you deal most of your damage in one action, it's also an extremely flexible build. Hands down the most efficient martial damage dealer in the game.
You mean Bestial Mutagen? Or is there a Feral Mutagen too?
Fighters in general already do the highest damage in most circumstances because of the to hit bonus. Barbarians get the biggest crits and per hit damage. But not much beats that +2 additional to hit. It's very powerful.
You don't get as many perks as other classes as a fighter. You pretty much hit things real well. But if that's what you want to do, no one does it better.
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2) Additional damage is not a damage bonus so it adds (maybe it shouldn't but this is the guidance we have from Mark)
Though if you're gonna base that of a developer comment then you have Michael Sayre as well:
Battle forms? Is the number you're looking at granted to you by the spell? Then it can only be affected by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties. It doesn't matter what the thing you're trying to add is, only that it's not one of those things.
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The calculator is not including weapon spec, I'm pretty sure that's in the notes. I'm certain that's RAI. And I read it that way as raw, that's why the barbarian dragon form feat has to say add rage damage, because you normally don't add additional damage.
Anyway, talking about a lvl 16 character, I say that a barbarian with reckless abandon is way better.
You'd be surprised. The damage should be the same between both builds (I'll check when I get access to Citricking's tool), but Reckless Abandon has a steep cost.