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Starfinder has been out long enough that some campaigns are breaking the double digit mark and the envoys lack of high level ability is starting to show. Picking multiple level 8 abilities just isn't keeping up with the power level of the rest of the group.
1)The best they can possibly do is flatline. The abilities are all balanced for 8th level. Someone picking up a level 8 ability and a level 12 ability has gained power AND versatility. Someone picking up 2 level 8 abilities is at best picking up versatility but...
2) The abilities you pick are weaker for you. That's why they weren't your first pick. So you should be increasing power, you COULD be flat lining, but you're not. Your're picking up less and less useful abilities.. your third pick should probably be considered a 6th level ability (and it very well might BE a sixth level ability)
3) The envoys action economy makes the flatline/downcline pretty severe. An envoy has an attack with get em, and a move action. Picking up other options get used less and less because it means not doing the other thing.
With this many expansion books it's starting to look like there's no plans for higher level envoy stuff. Unless there's a high level play book coming out to fix this and a few other problems with starfinder at higher levels it doesn't look like paizo considers it a problem.
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Starfinder has been out long enough that some campaigns are breaking the double digit mark and the envoys lack of high level ability is starting to show. Picking multiple level 8 abilities just isn't keeping up with the power level of the rest of the group.1)The best they can possibly do is flatline. The abilities are all balanced for 8th level. Someone picking up a level 8 ability and a level 12 ability has gained power AND versatility. Someone picking up 2 level 8 abilities is at best picking up versatility but...
2) The abilities you pick are weaker for you. That's why they weren't your first pick. So you should be increasing power, you COULD be flat lining, but you're not. Your're picking up less and less useful abilities.. your third pick should probably be considered a 6th level ability (and it very well might BE a sixth level ability)
3) The envoys action economy makes the flatline/downcline pretty severe. An envoy has an attack with get em, and a move action. Picking up other options get used less and less because it means not doing the other thing.
With this many expansion books it's starting to look like there's no plans for higher level envoy stuff. Unless there's a high level play book coming out to fix this and a few other problems with starfinder at higher levels it doesn't look like paizo considers it a problem.
I think the major problem is that unlike classes that get 14th, 16th, 18th level abilities, the envoy would by it's nature need 'master get'em' and 'master clever attack', etc, abilities to grow beyond 12th level without competing with itself.
It needs some high level abilities that make the lower level abilities it already relies on better while also offering variety, and the way the class is built makes that very difficult to fix simply with more improvisations.
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Get em could increase its bonus.
Like the envoy combines an attack with a get em, they could combine a hurry with their own move action (Take your own advice talent)
Move actions could become swift actions (for the envoy swift actions are just kind of sitting there)
Get em could become usable as part of a full attack. (MOAR DAKKA!)
I'm liking all these options, just now we need a character ops manual part 2 to print them.
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Get em could increase its bonus.
Like the envoy combines an attack with a get em, they could combine a hurry with their own move action (Take your own advice talent)
Move actions could become swift actions (for the envoy swift actions are just kind of sitting there)
Get em could become usable as part of a full attack. (MOAR DAKKA!)
agreed. the operative and mechanic get better at their core stuff all through their development, the envoy stays the same at a certain point, just with more tools.
agreed. the operative and mechanic get better at their core stuff all through their development, the envoy stays the same at a certain point, just with more tools.Get em could increase its bonus.
Like the envoy combines an attack with a get em, they could combine a hurry with their own move action (Take your own advice talent)
Move actions could become swift actions (for the envoy swift actions are just kind of sitting there)
Get em could become usable as part of a full attack. (MOAR DAKKA!)
At level 8 they've got their best tools, by level 12 they've probably picked up a situational tool (and improved hurry can be pretty good)... after that it's just pick up other worse tools for the build and nothing else.
Really, you just need master versions of ~6-8 envoy improvs and boom, the envoy is a great 1-20 class.
I will note that I really like the idea of master envoy abilities becoming swift actions so they can do three things a turn instead of two.
So are you just not liking the two 12th level Improvisations that are now listed? 'Cause it looks like you are just ignoring the fact that those exist.
Oh, I guess the title does say almost no 12+ abilities.
And haven't we had this discussion already? Getting serious levels of deja vu here. Maybe the devs are working on higher level abilities for the Envoy. Maybe they like the Envoy being a collection of lower level abilities. I'm just not sure that bringing it up every 6 months is going to change much.
So are you just not liking the two 12th level Improvisations that are now listed? 'Cause it looks like you are just ignoring the fact that those exist.
Oh, I guess the title does say almost no 12+ abilities.
And haven't we had this discussion already? Getting serious levels of deja vu here. Maybe the devs are working on higher level abilities for the Envoy. Maybe they like the Envoy being a collection of lower level abilities. I'm just not sure that bringing it up every 6 months is going to change much.
Its every time a player option book comes out and it STILL doesn't happen.
Also, even with level 12 options that's still only half the game. There need to be level 14 16 and 18 options too, or the envoy has a lot of trouble keeping up at the really high levels.