It seems strange to me that Subsist is by default a Downtime Mode thing only. If you are traveling in the wild, do we only use it when we assume nothing else happens after a day or several? Or if we try to use it in less than, say, a day, do we have to have the -5 penalty?
I had some thoughts about this, as I'm trying to make wilderness exploration a fun and engaging part of my game.
Can you have a day with some Encounters and some Exploration, and then at the end of that day assume it's been Downtime enough to roll Subsist for that day? Basically, is Subsist in Downtime *all* you can do for the day, or can we tack it onto the end of a day of Encounter and Exploration?
What about using Nature as a supplementary skill? Identifying game trails, water sources, etc., for foraging and shelters. It could be an Aid to the Survival roll for Subsist, or I was considering allowing it to waive the penalty for trying to Subsist in 8 hours or less.
What do you folks think? This sort of wilderness survival really screams "Exploration Mode" to me, so I'm thinking of ways to make it work better within the rules.
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This topic would probably better served in either the Homebrew or Advice section of the forums.
In my games, I would allow your proposal, but only in regards to your own character feeding themselves. For example, an adventuring day might allow you to find basic sustenance along the way (picking berries from a nearby bush or drinking fresh water from a stream as you walk along, for example). However, finding enough for others takes much more time, and would require downtime. You only need a handful of berries for yourself, but may need to forage over a large area to find enough berry bushes to fill the basket for your friends. Finding shelter, in this case, in exploration mode would be dependent on the narrative, and not your skills.
I realize now that the Standard of Living to which Subsist refers is per week, not day. That does change things a bit.
Though I still don't like the idea of shelter-making to be dependent totally on a weekly, long-term thing. What about having to make a hasty shelter because of a sudden storm?
Or what about hunting and foraging to supplement your supplies on a long travel?
This game may spend long periods of time out in the wild. I'd like to make sure there is a lot to do there for characters skilled at wilderness survival.
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I realize now that the Standard of Living to which Subsist refers is per week, not day. That does change things a bit.
Though I still don't like the idea of shelter-making to be dependent totally on a weekly, long-term thing. What about having to make a hasty shelter because of a sudden storm?
Or what about hunting and foraging to supplement your supplies on a long travel?
This game may spend long periods of time out in the wild. I'd like to make sure there is a lot to do there for characters skilled at wilderness survival.
I don't think page 294 is talking about using the Subsist activity. The length of time is whatever you deam appropriate. Probably every day if you're doing daily adventure stuff, but you could stretch it to longer if you need to montage and don't want excessive rolling.
The Sudden Storm would be better represented by a separate check(s). Possibly even a hazard if it is dangerous enough. The GMG has at least one flood listed.
Foraging while traveling is what the -5 penalty is for. Which I wouldn't just wave-- the DCs aren't that high to begin with. A lush forest is only DC 10. Also, if you start house ruling things out of existence, you may wind up negating particular skill feats, which doesn't reward people who built for this.
If you'd like a more robust wilderness survival system, I'd recommend Trail for the Hunted from the Ironfang Invasion AP. It is a great adventure, though the survival system wasn't my favorite part of it. But you can tweak it to taste and so it accounts for PF2 skill feats.
The Sudden Storm would be better represented by a separate check(s). Possibly even a hazard if it is dangerous enough. The GMG has at least one flood listed.
Skill Encounter.
Accruing victory point system: Shelter Points.
Checks can be made every 15 minutes. Party needs to achieve 10 Shelter Points within 45 minutes. Success gains 1 point, Critical Success gains 2 points, Critical Failure loses 1 point.
Standard options for skill checks are:
* Survival to gather supplies or food - DC standard for encounter level.
* Craft or Survival to build shelter - DC standard for encounter level.
* Perception to find supplies - DC hard for encounter level.
* Various lore skills may also apply. Use easy DC for encounter level if they are appropriate. Standard DC if it is a bit of a stretch of plausibility.
* Players may also come up with their own creative uses for skills. I would encourage and reward that to allow at least one use of the skill. Probably at hard DC for level though. They won't be suggesting something unless it was something that their character was fairly good at.
Nature check can aid survival checks using the standard DC and benefits for the Aid action.
Appropriate spells that can find things could potentially be used to gain Shelter Points also. I haven't scoured all of the spells looking for ones that would work though.
I don't think page 294 is talking about using the Subsist activity. The length of time is whatever you deam appropriate. Probably every day if you're doing daily adventure stuff, but you could stretch it to longer if you need to montage and don't want excessive rolling.
The Sudden Storm would be better represented by a separate check(s). Possibly even a hazard if it is dangerous enough. The GMG has at least one flood listed.
Foraging while traveling is what the -5 penalty is for. Which I wouldn't just wave-- the DCs aren't that high to begin with. A lush forest is only DC 10. Also, if you start house ruling things out of existence, you may wind up negating particular skill feats, which doesn't reward people who built for this.
If you'd like a more robust wilderness survival system, I'd recommend Trail for the Hunted from the Ironfang Invasion AP. It is a great adventure, though the survival system wasn't my favorite part of it. But you can tweak it to taste and so it accounts for PF2 skill feats.
Thank you, I may just take a look at that. You say it's more robust. Can you tell me a little more about what it has in it?
Thank you for the advice!
I don't think page 294 is talking about using the Subsist activity. The length of time is whatever you deam appropriate. Probably every day if you're doing daily adventure stuff, but you could stretch it to longer if you need to montage and don't want excessive rolling.
The Sudden Storm would be better represented by a separate check(s). Possibly even a hazard if it is dangerous enough. The GMG has at least one flood listed.
Foraging while traveling is what the -5 penalty is for. Which I wouldn't just wave-- the DCs aren't that high to begin with. A lush forest is only DC 10. Also, if you start house ruling things out of existence, you may wind up negating particular skill feats, which doesn't reward people who built for this.
If you'd like a more robust wilderness survival system, I'd recommend Trail for the Hunted from the Ironfang Invasion AP. It is a great adventure, though the survival system wasn't my favorite part of it. But you can tweak it to taste and so it accounts for PF2 skill feats.
Thank you, I may just take a look at that. You say it's more robust. Can you tell me a little more about what it has in it?
Thank you for the advice!
The PCs are responsible for keeping about two dozen refugees alive. This involves amassing ration points to keep them fed, either through Subsist type checks or special events. If you kill a monster, you may be able to harvest it's flesh for food, for example.
You can also assign different jobs for NPCs, including scouting, keeping watch, working on shelter, etc. And they could be upgraded through promotions his the NPC classes of PF1.
Someone did a PF2 version of the rules over on Ediwir's conversion discord. I think it was Tonaxian at the very top of the message history.
https://discord.gg/t83uqXFh