Hello, there!
I have to face an issue my players have with enemy morale - especially with dimension dooring of enemies when they feel overpowered by the players. I GMed Rise of the Runelords for my group and there were a lot of boss enemies which were capable of just poofing away if combat turned out to be lost for them. In my GM view the idea of recurring villains as intended by the AP was great... but my players hated it. They hated it so much they even wanted to quit game. I experienced the same-ish (but not that strong) frustration as player in other campaigns, so I can relate. Yeah, I fully understand their frustration preparing for fights, slashing through groups of minions or monsters only to see their main target to get away in the end. It just feels unfair and like their efforts doesn't matter at all. And now, as I prepare for GMing Hell's Rebels for the very same group, I had to moan because DD seems to be a thing for almost all relevant bosses there, too.
You see, it's a little bit tricky for me to handle this issue now. I know, fleeing from a threatening situation is just natural. Using all means available to get away is logical. NPCs are no fools - why should they continue an already lost fight if they don't want to die? Why shouldn't they use magic to flee? Many enemies in Hell's Rebels are powerful and rich and/or even casters capable of teleportation magic themselves. Okay, I could just ignore this and deny them tools the players get (and my group like teleportation a lot if they are the ones who control it). Of course, when dying or surrendering is not an option for NPCs, they still would run. I don't want to chance that in general, just to take the magical option away from them since it feels like a deus-ex-machina move that definitely would ruin the play for my group - especially if a well-planned infiltration mission during the new AP fails because of an fleeing target via "unfair means", they would be furiously mad at me.
I like the idea to just ignore teleport spells for enemies in early game (there are not many enemies capable of teleporting anyway) and then take the Song of Silver as a story device to ban teleport magic for enemies in Kintargo to make the Song of Silver more powerful and to explain the fact that enemies are not using DD. In addition, it would be nice story reward for the players to give them an obvious goody.
Original Song of Silver effect wrote: The performance takes only 1 minute, but once the song is successfully performed, the rooftop of the Kintargo Opera House glows with silver light for a week, during which time the effects detailed below are active. The song can be performed only once per month, so once it’s activated, the PCs have only a week to take advantage of its bonuses. The effects can’t be dispelled, and they persist without interruption for a week, unless the person who performed the song is slain, in which case the effects end at once. As long as the effects persist, all weapons wielded in the Kintargo city limits count as silver for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction, and all evil outsiders must succeed at DC 25 caster level checks to use any form of dimensional travel, such as teleport or planeshift. On a failed check, the effect does not function and the creature becomes staggered for 1 round. As Raynulf stated in this thread, the effects this "powerful" protection magic has, is really underwhelming - I totally agree. I really like his solution...
Raynulf wrote: It took longer (and more people) to perform, and could use the Opera House once per year to grant a powerful ward for a month. The ward primarily acted as a forbiddance against evil outsiders, aberrations, fey, magical beasts and monstrous humanoids, but didn’t affect any other creatures. ... a lot but I would rather change it to:
- as forbiddance against evil outsiders, aberrations, fey, magical beasts and monstrous humanoids
- and as forbiddance without the damage paragraph for evil humanoids
This would also fit nicely to my plans regarding the background of one of my players (changeling), who has some trouble with a night hag coven I would like to implement instead of the whole Luculla-story (which I don't like at all). I guess heartstones losing their power will somehow bring the hags into trouble. :D
But I have the feeling that creating such an effect (compared to the original one) could be too powerful in the end and would bring some kind of imbalance to the game. Therefore, I'm interested in how would you handle this? Would you just change the Song's effects (as I phrased it) and chance nothing else? Maybe I'm too concerned about how powerful this effect would. Or do you think, it would be too powerful, too? Would you secretly boost the enemies somehow in return for taking a good tactic options and escape plans like DD from them? Would you let them be accompanied by more minions? Or do you have an idea how to rephrase the effect without shifting the balance too much? In the end, I would like to have a powerful Song of Silver that makes a difference and feels like an achievement for the players without being game-breaking.
I would be happy to read your thoughts!
Just have it ban dimensional travel rather than DC25 (which only has a 40% chance for erinyes). That's what I did for simplicity more than anything else.
Also, there's not too many dungeon crawls, maybe 1 per book. And it's generally not the humanoid bosses that have teleport. So, I don't think the specific circumstances will happen much.
You know your table, but for other posters, my players absolutely loved the idea of returning erinyes. At one point they were thinking that there might just be one that kept showing up!
I do have a question: why monstrous humanoids?
Quote: Just have it ban dimensional travel rather than DC25 (which only has a 40% chance for erinyes). That's what I did for simplicity more than anything else.
Also, there's not too many dungeon crawls, maybe 1 per book. And it's generally not the humanoid bosses that have teleport. So, I don't think the specific circumstances will happen much.
Sounds like an easy workaround! I think I will go for block dimensional travel for evil creatures in general, thank you! Maybe I just worried to much about it. But I will have a look if I have to redesign some plot arcs in the end to let foes like Mangvhune react to the new magical restriction they have to struggle with.
Quote: You know your table, but for other posters, my players absolutely loved the idea of returning erinyes. At one point they were thinking that there might just be one that kept showing up! I agree: that could be fun for other groups! I made good experiences with recurring a few NPCs or monsters my group liked, to be honest. But this was in all cases restricted to side characters, not to their main targets like enemy officers. Therefore, I would be careful and just adapt the usage of recurring enemies to your players' taste. After my players have put much effort into defeating or capturing a special foe, they need a feeling of success. Maybe other groups don't feel bothered by foes fleeing in from their grasp.
Quote: I do have a question: why monstrous humanoids? I adopted this from Raynulf because I think it makes sense since the original Ravens faced skums, that are monstrous humanoids. I've read the passage in the adventure again now after you mentioned it. The description says: "Key to their successes against the vampires, Rivozair, and their short-lived triumph over Thrune was a powerful bardic ritual designed [...]". Therefore, the Ravens used the Song magic before and after the skum invasion (which was between the mentioned events). Unfortunately for them, the effect as written in the AP is not really useful against skums. They were surprised by them. But I think after fighting skums, the Ravens likely questioned the design of the spell they created, even though it was already useful against other types of enemies. Even in Raynulfs version of the effect, the Song could not be designed to protect from skums when the Ravens created it at first place. But after being aware of skums that could be a problem again at some point in the future, the Ravens could have adapted the effect to prevent harm. At least, I would have done that in their place! Of course, as mentioned above, I could just let the Song block dimensional travel of all evil creatures instead of just evil outsiders. That would make it unnecessary for me to let the old Ravens have performed spell revision.
Dark Umbra wrote: Hello, there!
I have to face an issue my players have with enemy morale - especially with dimension dooring of enemies when they feel overpowered by the players. I GMed Rise of the Runelords for my group and there were a lot of boss enemies which were capable of just poofing away if combat turned out to be lost for them.
Oh, this is a tough situation. I also DMed RoTR before Hell’s Rebels and found that a lot of NPCs did have teleportation as their escape route. Thankfully for me, my party enjoyed the recurring enemies instead of being annoyed by them.
It sounds like right now you have a pretty tidy solution to this problem in the form of modifying the Song of Silver. It’s also worth considering, have your players attempted to adopt tactics that would prevent people escaping this way? Counter spelling with dispel magic, opportunity attacks, the disruptive+spell breaker feats, and some class abilities like stunning fist are all good methods for them to try if they suspect an enemy is going to run. Dimensional Anchor is only a 4th level spell and doesn’t allow saving throws. Maybe throw out a couple suggestions for ways for them to prevent it? In the short term, anyway.
I did a mix of what roguerouge is suggesting and what Raynulf said. I had it completely block the evil outsiders from teleporting and had it last for a month.
That way it stayed in theme with the original idea, blocking teleport made it useful rather than an enemy having to wait an extra round before teleporting in (because, chances are, if they fail the first time they'll succeed the second), and having it last for a month means that the PCs feel safe for long enough to continue with their goals rather than trying to do everything as quickly as possible.
In general, enemies teleporting away is disappointing unless it's to set them up as a recurring villain, and even then, it can be really annoying.
I changed things in my campaign a little as a PC was a tiefling and was SUPER invested in finding out who sacrificed the child in book 1. So I had the perpetrator be part of the fight at Masquerade and the main villain hit the hated villain with Dimensional Anchor as punishment for too many failures. (Being vague in case players are reading this.)
The idea of the main boss of book 4 teleporting away only to come back with less reinforcements while there are more good guys around, and to suicide themselves just seemed stupid to me so I ignored the initial teleport and gave them a more useful spell. (No idea which one now, but it was something I used during the fight.)
Also, look at what Thrune does to Nox due to not being able to hold onto the museum (even if the group has to flee from her). By the time book 2 starts I'd assume that most of the enemies are aware of what he's doing to her and therefore would rather die at the hands of the PCs than run away.
MaxTheDM wrote: Thankfully for me, my party enjoyed the recurring enemies instead of being annoyed by them. You are lucky, then! My players almost always had the feeling I wanted to punish them. Although I think they somehow overreacted, I just know now they are sensitive regards someone "stealing their achievement".
MaxTheDM wrote: It’s also worth considering, have your players attempted to adopt tactics that would prevent people escaping this way? [...] Maybe throw out a couple suggestions for ways for them to prevent it? In the short term, anyway. I already had a rather tough time trying to convince my players there are ways to prevent enemies from teleporting. They know there are these options but they don't want to invest slots, feats or ready actions for disrupting/counterspelling since it is too situational (and maybe deadly to waste these ressources). I understand their opinion preparing for every foe teleporting away will consume costly ressources and/or prevent them from taking an active part in the battle. With the exception of ongoing disrupting effects like Dimensional Anchor, players almost always have to ready attacks or counterspells to prevent teleportation. Attacks of opportunities won't do the job very well here due to the defensive casting option a teleporting caster sure will take while surrounded by the group. Drawing and using a teleportation wand (unless it's in their backpack) won't trigger AoOs either.
Scripting enemies in such ways that they get an almost guaranteed escape route, forces the players either to take the annoyance or to focus their characters' class/ability/feat/spell choices and their whole tactics during fights on single teleportation events that maybe will occur or not. My players chose to take the first route and hate the plot/me for that.
I can relate that they want character builds they like and battle tactics that don't force them to always ready actions (what likely results in their turn being "skipped"). I think there are plenty ways for players to prevent teleportation, but there are not really "good" ones since the costs (to ready actions that could be useful otherwise) are high, until you have Dimensional Anchor or something alike. I am convinced that other groups wouldn't bother that much and would try to adapt their tactics to teleporting enemies, but for my players teleporting enemies are equivalent to me as a GM being an a+~$@!& not allowing them to win. For that, I rather try to avoid this conflict at all without roleplaying my NPCs unreasonably.
Warped Savant wrote: I did a mix of what roguerouge is suggesting and what Raynulf said. I had it completely block the evil outsiders from teleporting and had it last for a month.
That way it stayed in theme with the original idea, blocking teleport made it useful rather than an enemy having to wait an extra round before teleporting in (because, chances are, if they fail the first time they'll succeed the second), and having it last for a month means that the PCs feel safe for long enough to continue with their goals rather than trying to do everything as quickly as possible.
To stick to the original idea is important for me, as well! The Song of Silver should be a buff protecting the city as the original Ravens intended and should be useful for the new Ravens at the same time. The time pressure aspect is an interesting matter. Enough campaigns are tainted by players pressed for time. In Hell's Rebels it just will be beneficial if the players can plan their endeavours as they like. Adding time to the Song's effect will surely promote roleplay.
Warped Savant wrote: Also, look at what Thrune does to Nox due to not being able to hold onto the museum (even if the group has to flee from her). By the time book 2 starts I'd assume that most of the enemies are aware of what he's doing to her and therefore would rather die at the hands of the PCs than run away. You are totally right! Nox is a good example why Thrune's officers should be afraid of him... not mentioning his dragon or the things they know about his plans (they accompanied him to the Soul Anchor after all) - they can be sure they will be punished for failure or that he will track them down if they try to desert. They are dead or worse anyway - accepting the Ravens to take out the final blow is surely a valid way to face their fate. If they have the guts to run and to return to their master (or being captured by his agents): letting PCs know about punishments Thrune executes beyond the punishment Nox got, could be an interesting way to flesh out his evilness.
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