Starting up War for the crown shortly as a player. We've been given a little lee-way in our build and I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed by all the feat options. As war for the crown is a social heavy campaign there will be some feat choices for flavor alone. I am filling the role of the team's beastly striker. A vain adopted baron's daughter by day who lashes into a frenzy at the scent/sight of blood. Mainly unarmed/maneuvers. Also hoping to jump like a cat!
I am hoping that the perceptive eyes of Paizo can point out some room for improvement or other feedback.
GM's lee-way: Two extra ancestry feats at lvl 1 and the free archetype custom ruling.
Class: Barbarian
Race: Catfolk/Tiefling (adopted as an exotic vanity project, enabling violent and anti-social traits in the shadows)
Skills: Acrobatics, Athletics, Deception, Intimidation, Fiendish Plane lore, Legal lore, Mercantile Lore, Performance, Religion, Society, Stealth, Thievery
STR: 18, DEX: 16, CON: 12, INT: 10, WIS: 8, CHA: 14
Lvl 1
Class: Raging Intimidation, Deer Instinct ("They have horns, just like me!")
Ancestry: Nimble Hooves, Fiendish lore, Hellspawn
Skill: Darkvision, Land on your feet, Lie to Me, Multilingual, Intimidating Glare
lvl 2
Class: Acute Scent: Imprecise Scent
Skill: Steady Balance
Free Archetype: Fighter
Lvl 3
Athletics Expert (Will Combat Grab defeat the purpose of investing in athletics?)
Toughness
Class: Deny Advantage
Lvl 4
Skill: Powerful Leap
Free Archetype: Opportunist ~ Attack of opportunity
Class Feat: Raging Athlete
Lvl 5
STR: 19, CON: 14, WIS: 10, CHA: 16
Ancestry: Springing Leaper
Critical Brutality
Acrobatics Expert
Lvl 6
Free Archetype: Basic Maneuver - Combat Grab
Skill: Titan Wrestler
Class: Animal Skin
Lvl 7
General: Fast Recovery
Juggernaut
Weapon Spec.
Master Athletics
Lvl 8
Free Archetype: Monk dedication, Powerful Fist
Diplomacy as skill
Class: Thrash
Skill: Cat Fall
lvl 9
Ancestry: Devil Magic (Invisibility, Misdirection)
Lightning Reflexes
Raging Resistance: Bludgeoning, Slashing
Lvl 10
Class: Archetype ~ Basic Kata: Crushing Grab
Archetype: Monk's Flurry
Skill: Rapid Mantel
Str 20, Con 16, Wis 12, Cha 18
Lvl 11
Intimidation Expert
General: Canny Acumen ~ Reflex or Perception
lvl 12
Archetype: Advanced Kata ~ Whirling Throw
Skill Feat: Charming Liar?
Class Feat: Brutal Bully
lvl 13
Ancestry: Caterwaul
Master Intimidation
Class: Whirlwind Strike? Terrifying Howl? Impressive Landing?
Not really sure where to go from here.
Any feedback is welcome - even positive would make me more assured. As I am very new to second edition it would be nice to know if I'm heading in the right direction.
Yeah, it's a good build, just remember that while Grappling you can't use the Horns to strike because they are busy grappling.
Yeah, it's a good build, just remember that while Grappling you can't use the Horns to strike because they are busy grappling.
Only if you use them to grapple: the only bonus you get for using them is the "weapon’s item bonus to attack rolls as an item bonus to the Athletics check" but that requires handwraps. Instead you could use a Lifting Belt or Armbands of Athleticism to get an item bonus to ALL athletics checks and that would give an option to use the horns + handwraps or another weapon to do damage.
For instance, picking up a magic Gill Hook and the magic items for Athletics gives the option for both reach and normal grapples at full bonuses.
Thank you both for the response. My impression is that the rules are riddled with little loop holes like this that's easy to overlook and important to be aware of. Sometimes you find a way to work around it, but other times your build might not work they way you had intended, and that was one of the things I was worried about.
This definitely supports investing in athletics. I didn't really even consider the fact that I would be getting a reach grab. It gives me a few circumstantial options as the levels go by such as;
Option 1: Combat grab with Horns (handwraps bonus) + Thrash + Whirling Throw
Option 2: Regular (Assurance) Grapple (Not with Horns, does not invoke MAP) + Flurry of Blows + Thrash/Whirling Throw
Option 2: Regular (Assurance) Grapple (Not with Horns, does not invoke MAP) + Flurry of Blows + Thrash/Whirling Throw
Using Assurance allows you to ignore any MAP you're already suffering. It does not allow you to ignore the fact that Grab has the attack trait and will increase your MAP for subsequent attacks.
So your Flurry in this example will be at -5/-10.
Option 2: Regular (Assurance) Grapple (Not with Horns, does not invoke MAP) + Flurry of Blows + Thrash/Whirling ThrowUsing Assurance allows you to ignore any MAP you're already suffering. It does not allow you to ignore the fact that Grab has the attack trait and will increase your MAP for subsequent attacks.
So your Flurry in this example will be at -5/-10.
Thanks. Good to know - it's these kinds of things you want to know sooner than later, and as we're all new to the system (GM included), clarifying such rules helps us a lot!
Yeah, it's a good build, just remember that while Grappling you can't use the Horns to strike because they are busy grappling.
Is that an actual rule? I can't find it anywhere.
If it's a "common sense" thing, then I don't think I agree. I imagine if a deer grappled someone with their antlers then they'd be able to gore them pretty badly. Same goes for if you hook someone with a gillhook.
I would agree that it is silly to imagine them attacking someone else within their reach than the creature being grappled though.
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Yeah, it's a good build, just remember that while Grappling you can't use the Horns to strike because they are busy grappling.Is that an actual rule? I can't find it anywhere.
If it's a "common sense" thing, then I don't think I agree. I imagine if a deer grappled someone with their antlers then they'd be able to gore them pretty badly. Same goes for if you hook someone with a gillhook.
I would agree that it is silly to imagine them attacking someone else within their reach than the creature being grappled though.
The "Grab" creature ability has this limitation. Though by RAW, it doesn't seem to apply to Weapons or Unarmed Strikes with the Grapple trait.
I'm less concerned about the combat build and more about how bad a fit this looks for War for the Crown. Your character has very little to offer outside of the physical. There is a good charisma score but little further investment in charisma skills-- you aren't even trained in diplomacy until half way through the game. You're gonna be wrestling titans less often than you will be, say, trying to impress a group. Options like this aren't merely flavor choices. They are important mechanical foundations for winning this campaign. The entire first level of play is entirely social skill checks.
On top of that, as the player's guide mentions Taldor is racist af. Even half eves are viewed as mogrels and shameful to a family. You're a furry demon cat thing. Are you sure people will even let you into the party, much less want to talk to you when they see you there?
You may have discussed this with your table. Maybe the GM doesn't really want to tackle racism. Maybe the other players have leaned into the social skills enough and just need muscle, and maybe you're ok with having little to contribute outside of combat. But if you haven't had that conversation you probably should. :)
I'm less concerned about the combat build and more about how bad a fit this looks for War for the Crown. Your character has very little to offer outside of the physical. There is a good charisma score but little further investment in charisma skills-- you aren't even trained in diplomacy until half way through the game. You're gonna be wrestling titans less often than you will be, say, trying to impress a group. Options like this aren't merely flavor choices. They are important mechanical foundations for winning this campaign. The entire first level of play is entirely social skill checks.
On top of that, as the player's guide mentions Taldor is racist af. Even half eves are viewed as mogrels and shameful to a family. You're a furry demon cat thing. Are you sure people will even let you into the party, much less want to talk to you when they see you there?
You may have discussed this with your table. Maybe the GM doesn't really want to tackle racism. Maybe the other players have leaned into the social skills enough and just need muscle, and maybe you're ok with having little to contribute outside of combat. But if you haven't had that conversation you probably should. :)
Good points! With 2E lacking the means of improving skill ranks in the same way 1E did (and won't do til lvl 4), I find it a bit difficult to cover all the bases, but I have most of them trained at the start. I wouldn't exactly say that it's "little to contribute", but I see your point for later levels. The GM hasn't really done much in regards to telling us what to prioritize them particularly even if social skills are a given. I am the team's muscle - the rest will be an investigator, a cleric, and a sorcerer. Non are good-aligned, but we will find internal motivation to drive the campaign forward, nonetheless. I want the character to be duplicitous and something of a sneak, perhaps even threatening. I might focus more on deception, with skill feats such as charming liar as the levels go by.
The race thing is purely intentional. She is flavored as looking fairly humanoid and tiefling-like, save for digitigrade legs hidden beneath fancy dresses, aiding her in acrobatics and speed. She was adopted as a vanity project by a would-be baroness (pre-primogeniture), to cause a little social stir and gain attention for herself, seeing as their noble house has disappeared into anonymity from the public eye. Her noble adopted mother is also a member of a secret society of Urgathoa worshipers (supported by the player's guide), having secretly groomed the tiefling's violent and feral tendencies to lie dormant beneath the surface of an otherwise polite and exotic-looking girl trained to play the part for curious nobles at dinner parties. She is somewhat influenced by characters such as X-23, Cassandra Cain, and maybe a little bit of Catra from the She-ra reboot. At the start, she will be motivated to change Taldor in order to assure that her mother can rightfully attain the title of baroness and gain control of their house. She detests commonfolk and otherwise acts as a snooty debutante. At least in the beginning. Where her arc goes will be determined by how the sessions unfold.
Ugh, be honest. You picked the deer instinct because it is mathematically superior having the maximum die size and gaining reach essentially for free. I had a feeling before I even opened the thread...
Right. Because it's absolutely impossible for a cool flavor choice to also just be good
Ugh, be honest. You picked the deer instinct because it is mathematically superior having the maximum die size and gaining reach essentially for free. I had a feeling before I even opened the thread...Right. Because it's absolutely impossible for a cool flavor choice to also just be good
I assumed it was because of the Grapple trait and ALL the natural weapons that have that are 1d10... That and they didn't know about a reach option until I mentioned it so...
To be fair, I was considering the shark as well, obviously going for a grapple build - Mechanically I'm not about to break that shark anathema any time soon, with deer being far more likely and would need a work around, if they are going on a royal hunt for instance. The shark might have a bad rep as a ruthless hungering killer - apt for a Neutral Evil worshiper of Urgathoa, though at the same time I found it ironically funny and perhaps a bit telling that an otherwise immoral and egotistical character might lack the self-insight and identify (completely unwarranted) with the serene image of a deer - maybe showing that the character is capable of selective empathy, should she develop in that direction over the course of the story.
Her: "The deer! Look at it! It's just like me with its horns.. alluring and mysterious, almost regal!"
Rest of the party: "...You serious?"
I might still change it to shark, as I imagine there might be some fancy dinners down the line, which a follower of Urgathoa is not one to pass on. Still, now that I am fully aware... It's very hard to turn down 10 foot reach over practically nothing aside from an 'easier' anathema. Right?
I mean, with the release of the Gillhook the more optimal choice mechanically is probably a Giant Instinct Barbarian from the Isle of Kortos, or just a fighter to be honest. No need to be toxic about people's build choices, you can build for flavour and power simultaneously.
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Yes. It it just a pity that there is one stand out Animal Barbarian form. I prefer a few options without having to give up something as strong as reach.
Deer getting reach with no other options made more sense when it had a smaller die.
Now it just looks weird that you have a bunch of instincts that are basically identical but one of them gets a free extra thing.