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The descriptions of self telekinesis and flame jet indicate that the kineticist isn't actually flying but are instead pushing themselves through the air as an action each round.
This leads me to the conclusion that a caster cannot affect them with dispel magic as it's not a continuous effect that can be targeted on the caster's round and it can't be counterspelled since it's a spell-like ability.
So, is an anti-magic field the only spell that can end the self telekinesis/flame jet abiltiy?
Because it's a spell-like ability, you can disrupt it by means that don't involve counterspelling; for example, readying some attack against the kineticist before he jumps or sustains the flight, then forcing a Concentrate check against the damage.
There is another way: with the Kinetic Counter feat, a kineticist unlocks the ability to use cold blast, fire blast, or water blast for counterspelling. There are elemental restrictions, and you must do a level check as though using Dispel Magic; but the feat allows you to counter spells, SLAs, and even supernatural abilities. Red dragons don't appreciate when you throw water in their mouths to prematurely douse their fire breath.
Fire blast allow you to counter [cold] and [water] abilities - pretty nice in the frozen northlands, but not what we're looking for here.
Cold and water blasts can counter [fire] abilities - which at least gives you flame jet. Doesn't help against Self TK though.
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Yeah, my monster is going to have to either ready an action or try and grapple. Based on the description, I do think that the spell is pretty obvious how it works.
Self Telekinesis
Element(s) aether; Type utility (Sp); Level 3; Burn 0You use your telekinetic abilities to move yourself. Otherwise, this wild talent functions like flame jet.
Flame Jet
Element(s) fire; Type utility (Sp); Level 3; Burn 0You shoot a burst of flame behind you as a standard action, propelling you up to 60 feet in a straight line, including into the air; any movement upward costs double. If you end your turn mid-air, you fall on your next turn unless you use flame jet again.
So, if flame jet shoots a burst of flame, then self telekinesis must shoot a burst of aether. My monster should be able to tell as soon as the ability is used that it isn't a spell.
Concentration checks should work very well against those SLAs, since the caster level is fixed on SLAs that are not based on any spells and the Kineticist lacks a caster level of his own.
However, does it really matter if a Kineticist uses this ability to run away? What's the harm in an enemy using his standard action to move? They could have just done that anyway without any ability, since you can always use your standard action for another move.
The movement (speed) is very good with 60ft, but being limited to a straight line is reducing the efficacy of that again.
And the fact that they might fly up to 30ft into the air means they are still within range for all ranged attacks.
So unless that Kineticist is able to be an efficient enemy with just a move & a swift action each turn, why care?
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Concentration checks should work very well against those SLAs, since the caster level is fixed on SLAs that are not based on any spells and the Kineticist lacks a caster level of his own.
Spell-like abilities are one of those things that could really have used a cleanup. According to the Universal Monster rules on SLAs (which are referenced in a couple of PC-specific FAQs) if a creature doesn't have a caster level and a specific spell-like ability doesn't have a caster level, then the SLA has a caster level equal to the creature's Hit Dice.
So kineticists get a concentration check bonus of HD + Con mod.
So kineticists get a concentration check bonus of HD + Con mod.
I don't necessarily disagree granting a Kineticist a caster level equal to his class level for such purposes (not HD though), the rules say otherwise:
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ul1y?Caster-Level-of-SLAs-not-based-on-Spells
The effective spell level for these spell-like abilities is equal to the highest-level spell that a character of that class could normally cast at the level the ability is gained.
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If a character class grants a spell-like ability that is not based on an actual spell, the ability's effective spell level is equal to the highest-level class spell the character can cast, and is cast at the class level the ability is granted.
As seen in this thread, Kineticists were not supposed to have an innate caster level.
RAW:
The caster-level of a Wild Talent, that is a Spell-Like Ability and does not reference an actual spell, is equal to the class level of the Kineticist when he gained that Wild Talent. A concentration check would use that caster level in lieu of an innate caster level.
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Wrote a response then deleted it after searching some more of Mark Seifter's posts. Found this gem from the main designer of the kineticist class:
I'd say that most likely you don't have a "caster level in that class" . . . though I'm not 100% convinced.
Like I said, spell-like abilities could have used a rules cleanup.
Like I said, I don't disagree, and I think this FAQ-introduced rule is bad. But in the rules forum, someone needs to give the actual rules/RAW response.
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There's a difference between "Rules as Written" and "Rules as Working," though. Yes, this is the rules forum, but if it's clear something is broken then the rules forum should be used to figure out what works (and in olden days ask for FAQ/errata), not try to pretzel up the language until we come up with something that squeezes into a rule-shaped hole but bears no relation to how the ability is described as working and then proclaim that's the "RAW" way to play.
If the caster level of a wild talent is equal to the level of the kineticist when he gains the talent, then energy blasts become absolutely terrible. If I get Fire Blast at 1st level then by this logic my caster level for Fire Blast is 1 and never gets any higher. That means I can never penetrate an SR higher than 21 with Fire Blast.
There's several infusions that would be similarly hosed.
I do agree that I was incorrect about the HD. The only thing that makes sense is if the kineticist has a caster level equal to kineticist levels.
By the way I think this thread is saying the exact opposite of what you think it says.
As seen in this thread, Kineticists were not supposed to have an innate caster level.
Mark specifically says "the spell level for a blast will always be 1/2 your caster level," indicating that kineticists DO have a caster level.
If the caster level of a wild talent is equal to the level of the kineticist when he gains the talent, then energy blasts become absolutely terrible. If I get Fire Blast at 1st level then by this logic my caster level for Fire Blast is 1 and never gets any higher. That means I can never penetrate an SR higher than 21 with Fire Blast.
There's several infusions that would be similarly hosed.
I do agree that I was incorrect about the HD. The only thing that makes sense is if the kineticist has a caster level equal to kineticist levels.
No, that is not the case. This FAQ-introduced rule affects few Wild Talents in a meaningful way, most are unaffected, among them the Blasts.
First, this rule applies only to Spell-Like Abilities, that
(1) are gained as a class ability, and
(2) are not based on an actual spell, and
(3) are not kinetic blast talents, and
(4) are not defense wild talents, and
(5) are not infusion talents.
The reason for (1) & (2) is obvious, as the FAQ [& CRB update] simply wouldn't apply; it only affects class SLAs not based on actual spells:
If a character class grants a spell-like ability that is not based on an actual spell, the ability's effective spell level is equal to the highest-level class spell the character can cast, and is cast at the class level the ability is granted.
The reason for (3), (4) is that the Kineticist class description has that exemption written into it, meaning these wild talents scale up every even level:
Wild Talents: [...]
Every wild talent has an effective spell level. A kineticist can always select 1st-level wild talents, but she can select a wild talent of a higher level only if her kineticist level is at least double the wild talent’s effective spell level. Kinetic blast and defense wild talents are always considered to have an effective spell level equal to 1/2 the kineticist’s class level (to a maximum effective spell level of 9th at kineticist level 18th).
The reason for (5) is that Infusions have an explicit rules mechanism provided and are Supernatural Abilities anyway (the Foxfire Infusion from the Ultimate Wilderness book is just wrong having (Sp) there):
Infusion (Su): [...]
The DC for a save against an infusion is based on the associated kinetic blast’s effective spell level, not the level of the infusion...
Kineticists do get a caster level bonus for their element wild talents with Expanded Element for what it's worth though:
Expanded Element (Su):
For wild talents of her element, the kineticist gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls, as well as to caster level and DCs.
So the only wild talents affected are Utility Wild Talents, that are (a) Spell-Like Abilities and (b) not based on an actual spell. These are:
Aerial AdaptationAether Puppet (and Corpse Puppet & Plant Puppet)
Basic Aerokinesis
Basic Chaokinesis
Elemental Exile
Elemental Transmission
Fire Corridor
Fire Sculptor
Fire Steed (and Improved Fire Steed & Greater Fire Steed)
Flame Jet (& Greater Flame Jet)
Flame Trap
From the Ashes
Gravity Control (and Greater Gravity Control)
Healing Burst (and Kinetic Healer & Void Healer & Wood Healer)
Heat Wave
Kinetic Cover
Kinetic Form
Pillar
Ride the Blast
Self Telekinesis (and Greater Self Telekinesis)
Shift Earth
Smoke Storm
Suffocate
Telekinetic Finesse
Water Alteration
The Spying Touchsight talent is affected, even if it can be used along with the supernatural Touchsight utility wild talent.
The Shimmering Mirage, Jagged Flesh & Thorn Flesh enhance a supernatural ability, but would be affected as well.
Most of these talents are not used in an offensive way, so it matters little that they have low spell-levels & caster-levels.
Out of all of these utility wild talents, those that go against Spell Resistance are: Elemental Exile, Elemental Transmission, Suffocate and the healing talents Healing Burst, Kinetic Healer, Void Healer, Wood Healer.
The healing wild talents are just not something you use in combat, and creatures can turn off their SR in those circumstances.
Elemental Transmission allows concentrating on the ability even if the first attempts fail, so the receiver can turn off his SR to successfully receive the message.
Elemental Exile is a level 8 utility wild talent (i.e. requires Kineticist level 16+), so it loses out at the most on 1 spell-level and 4 caster levels (depending on when it's taken).
This leaves Suffocate as the only real loser, being a level 6 talent (i.e. Kineticist 12+), as it might lose out on 3 spell-levels and 8 caster levels.
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You're jumping back and forth between caster level and spell level.
There isn't anything related to blast, defense, or infusion wild talents that explicitly says they have a caster level. They explicitly have a spell level, which sets the DC. But spell levels don't set caster level. If we use the FAQ referenced
If a character class grants a spell-like ability that is not based on an actual spell, the ability's effective spell level is equal to the highest-level class spell the character can cast, and is cast at the class level the ability is granted.
Then it doesn't matter what the spell level of Fire Blast is, all that matters is what level the ability was granted (first, if you took it as your first elemental blast) when determining caster level. Which, again, leads to the conclusion that your caster level will always be 1 and you can never beat an SR of 22.
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I read a lot of Mark's posts about the design of the kineticist today. It looks like they deliberately didn't add in that one little line of text that exists in most classes/archetypes that get SLAs: "[Class Name]'s class level is the caster level for these spell-like abilities."
They didn't want to give the kineticist a caster level because they didn't want players using feats, talents, equipment, or other methods to increase caster level and increase blast damage or other talents. Instead they wanted that to be explicitly based on the number of kineticist levels the PC had.
However the knock-on effect was that they didn't explicitly account for everything that caster level plays into. Specifically concentration checks and caster level checks for overcoming SR.
You're jumping back and forth between caster level and spell level.
There isn't anything related to blast, defense, or infusion wild talents that explicitly says they have a caster level. They explicitly have a spell level, which sets the DC. But spell levels don't set caster level.
That's why I wrote "these wild talents scale up every even level"; the ability is changed, i.e. gained at the respective higher level which requires the caster level to be set anew as well.
Then it doesn't matter what the spell level of Fire Blast is, all that matters is what level the ability was granted (first, if you took it as your first elemental blast) when determining caster level. Which, again, leads to the conclusion that your caster level will always be 1 and you can never beat an SR of 22.
While it's true that Spell-Like Abilities can in general be subject to Spell Resistance, unless it is specifically mentioned (in the spell description or the SLA description) that an SLA needs to overcome SR, however, the SLA ignores SR completely.
There is not a single Kinetic Blast Talent, that has to overcome Spell Resistance.
There is not a single Defense Wild Talent, that has to overcome Spell Resistance.
There is not a single Infusion Wild Talent, that has to overcome Spell Resistance.
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While it's true that Spell-Like Abilities can in general be subject to Spell Resistance, unless it is specifically mentioned (in the spell description or the SLA description) that an SLA needs to overcome SR, however, the SLA ignores SR completely.
There is not a single Kinetic Blast Talent, that has to overcome Spell Resistance.
There is not a single Defense Wild Talent, that has to overcome Spell Resistance.
There is not a single Infusion Wild Talent, that has to overcome Spell Resistance.
OK, this is utterly backwards.
Spell Resistance - Spell-like YES
Every SLA has to overcome SR unless it states otherwise. Every kineticist energy blast has to overcome SR. Physical blasts do not (because it explicitly says so in the Kinetic Blast ability description).
OK, this is utterly backwards.
Spell Resistance - Spell-like YESEvery SLA has to overcome SR unless it states otherwise.
That table says the same thing about spells. Does that mean that every spell has to overcome Spell Resistance? No, obviously not.
It's important to read the entire texts, which tell you:
Only spells and spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance. Extraordinary and supernatural abilities (including enhancement bonuses on magic weapons) are not. A creature can have some abilities that are subject to spell resistance and some that are not. Even some spells ignore spell resistance; see When Spell Resistance Applies, below.
So, when does Spell Resistance apply?
Each spell includes an entry that indicates whether spell resistance applies to the spell.
So unless a spell has "SR: Yes" or something similiar in its entry, SR does not apply. For non-spell SLAs, the SLA needs to say whether SR applies.
Every kineticist energy blast has to overcome SR. Physical blasts do not (because it explicitly says so in the Kinetic Blast ability description).
You conclude that non-physical blasts have to overcome SR just because it says that physical blasts do not. That's a logical fallacy. From "cats are cute" we cannot deduce that "non-cats are not cute".
That table says the same thing about spells. Does that mean that every spell has to overcome Spell Resistance? No, obviously not.
No, because spells are written in such a way as to identify whether they respect SR or not, including calls to clarifying notes where needed. This is often the case where a spell respects SR and can potentially make several attacks over time, such as spiritual weapon.
With SLAs that aren't of spells, we need to fall back on our general rules:
Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.
Thus, our default assumption is that SLAs do respect SR. Physical kinetic blasts have a specific exception, stating explicitly that they are not subject to SR. Energy blasts must then revert to the established default.
The cat analogy works like this.
- The door of my shop says "Kittens in kennels for sale."
- There's a sign on the green kennel, saying "This kitten is reserved for Dr. Whistler, and is not for sale."
- There's no sign on the red kennel, but there clearly is a cute kitten in there!
=^.8.^=
Is the kitten in the red kennel for sale?
Spells do respect SR as well. This description is a general statement about SLAs. So respecting SR means you go look at the rules for SR and there is a section telling you when SR applies. That section tells you to look at the entry of the spell, which says whether SR applies. [Little note: it says "whether it applies", it does not say "whether it applies or not".]
That is certainly a problem for non-spell SLAs, since it's not clear what happens in their case. Which is why I repeatedly said that I don't disagree with the "SLAs need a rules clean-up" demand.
The general rule in that case can be either one of two things:
1) SLAs (whether based on spells or not) work like spells in all regards (except for the aforementioned things in that rule paragraph like components), which would mean they default to "the spell entry says whether SR applies"; or
2) SLAs that aren't based on spells have to be adjudicated according to the rules in the "When SR applies" paragraph.
The default is not, as you claim, "SR applies to all SLAs unless stated otherwise".
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The default is not, as you claim, "SR applies to all SLAs unless stated otherwise".
Yes, it is. It's the kind of thing that the designers would historically mark as "No FAQ required" because it is so blindingly obvious to them.
I don't have any idea how to convince you that you're reading it backwards and I don't think we can continue the kineticist discussion in a meaningful manner with that fundamental misunderstanding.
1) SLAs (whether based on spells or not) work like spells in all regards (except for the aforementioned things in that rule paragraph like components), which would mean they default to "the spell entry says whether SR applies"; or
2) SLAs that aren't based on spells have to be adjudicated according to the rules in the "When SR applies" paragraph.The default is not, as you claim, "SR applies to all SLAs unless stated otherwise".
Admittedly, I hadn't noticed that section. But looking it over... why are you bringing it up in this case? Because...
While it's true that Spell-Like Abilities can in general be subject to Spell Resistance, unless it is specifically mentioned (in the spell description or the SLA description) that an SLA needs to overcome SR, however, the SLA ignores SR completely.
There is not a single Kinetic Blast Talent, that has to overcome Spell Resistance.
Let's evaluate this statement.
1. Since kinetic blasts are considered weapon-like spells (eg, they can be taken with Weapon Focus,) they would fall under the effect category.
Most effect spells summon or create something and are not subject to spell resistance. Sometimes, however, spell resistance applies to effect spells, usually to those that act upon a creature more or less directly.
There's a tendency for direct attacks of conjuration (creation) to not allow SR; acid splash, burning sands, acid arrow, etc. This doesn't hold for other schools.
Kinetic blasts don't have a stated school. However, the family of magic items that affect kinetic blast damage (kineticist's diadem and esoteric diadem) are evocation. This does not come from a spell requisite, either - only from the creator requisite of being a 10th level kineticist with proper elemental access.
Spell resistance has no effect unless the energy created or released by the spell actually goes to work on the resistant creature’s mind or body. If the spell acts on anything else and the creature is affected as a consequence, no roll is required. Spell-resistant creatures can be harmed by a spell when they are not being directly affected.
Stretchy pyrokinetic guru Dhalsim spits a Yoga Fire. That is energy created by the spell-like ability, and it's about to do work on the resistant creature's body - burning it with flames.
SR applies to energy-based kinetic blasts.
I don't have any idea how to convince you that you're reading it backwards and I don't think we can continue the kineticist discussion in a meaningful manner with that fundamental misunderstanding.
Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.
I am reading this as a general statement, meaning that "Spell-Like Abilities are affected by the rules governing Spell Resistance, Dispel Magic, Antimagic Field and so forth."
[I presume,] you are reading this as "all Spell-Like Abilities are affected by Spell Resistance, Dispel Magic, and so forth."
If I may explain why I think that way, then consider the way this rule mentions Dispel Magic right after Spell Resistance: But not every SLA can be dispelled, as for example instantaneous effects (e.g. Fireball) or non-magic creations (e.g. Wall of Stone) are not dispellable.
The text "SLAs are subject to spell resistance" is (in my opinion) a reference to the Spell Resistance rules, not the Spell Resistance ability. This is why my next step was to look up the rules on Spell Resistance, and then I mentioned the paragraph "When Spell Resistance applies".
I'm not saying that this is the only way to read this text - it might really mean the SR ability, not the SR rules - but I think the comparison with Dispel Magic leaves me with a strong case to read it my way.
That leaves us with the next issue:
Admittedly, I hadn't noticed that section. But looking it over... why are you bringing it up in this case? Because...
I brought it up because at that point I see a judgement call: Either you choose option 1) or option 2), without certainty as to what applies now.
If you go with option 2), as you did here, then I absolutely agree with your conclusion: "SR applies to energy-based kinetic blasts."
However, if you go with option 1), then I come to the conclusion "SR does not apply to energy-based kinetic blasts." Because in that case, a spell or SLA has to have an entry that says "SR: Yes" or something similar for SR to apply.
The main issue is in the entire SLA-rules being messy, especially for SLAs that are not based on actual spells.
As for the Kineticist, if SR were to apply to all energy blasts and the caster level of these blasts were abysmal, how could they ever hope to overcome ordinary spell resistance? Wouldn't every single energy kineticist end up being an Elf with all Spell Penetration feats?
As for the Kineticist, if SR were to apply to all energy blasts and the caster level of these blasts were abysmal, how could they ever hope to overcome ordinary spell resistance? Wouldn't every single energy kineticist end up being an Elf with all Spell Penetration feats?
Which loops back around to the original problem - how do we adjudicate the kineticist's caster level checks? We have common situations for both SR checks (pure level) and concentration (level + Con).
The problem from RAW isn't only a problem for kineticists - but actually for most classes that gain spell-like abilities.
But not all of them. Bloodragers explicitly use their class level as SLA CL:
"The bloodrager gains bloodline powers at 1st level, 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter. The bloodline powers a bloodrager gains are described in his chosen bloodline. For all spell-like bloodline powers, treat the character’s bloodrager level as the caster level."