https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=375.
I think it's fine but many say it's missing the Incapacitation trait.
Level 9 has nothing to do with it. There are several spells at that level with the tag.
The normal failure effect is Frightened 2 and some damage.
The critical failure is just more damage. But there is a second save or die. But really speaking the double damage on 16d6 might have done the job anyway. That's not bad enough to warrant an incapacitation tag.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Nope. Let the casters have some fun at lvl 17 and up.
Level 9 has nothing to do with it. There are several spells at that level with the tag.
The normal failure effect is Frightened 2 and some damage.
The critical failure is just more damage. But there is a second save or die. But really speaking the double damage on 16d6 might have done the job anyway. That's not bad enough to warrant an incapacitation tag.It is basically an AoE version of Phantasmal Killer. And if the effects are bad enough for Phantasmal Killer to have the incapacitation trait then it would make sense for Weird to have it too.
Maybe, but Phatasmal Killer has Frightened 4 on top, but it doesn't really deserve the incapacitation trait either.
If a level 19+ boss crit fails will and then fails fort it's not unfair for it to die. I don't believe I'll ever see this happen more than once.
Same for me. Because it requires two failed saves (one critically), I don't feel it needs Incapacitation.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Which brings be back to not being a particular fan of this incapacitation rule because its too strong and too arbitrary.
Either way Wierd is border line for it. Incapacitation just on the critical fail - is probably a fair call. It's just not one I'm ever going to do, because of my prejudice here.
If any of you have ever seen Phantasmal Killer in play on PF2e, then you already know that an AOE version of it is really, really good. It's the sleeper hit of this edition because it does a lot and the Incapacitation is limited to the death saving throw, while higher leveled monsters will still suffer immensely with the non-fatal critical failure.
My monk critically failed then failed on a Phantasmal Killer, but he didn't die due to incapacitation, yet it was one of the toughest fights we ever had because of that and it would've been even tougher if my monk didn't have high speed to only lose one round outside of combat.
My party's Necromancer used it a lot and it was highly effective as well, with one instakill in Age of Ashes. Weird's 120ft range and no target limit just makes it even more dangerous as an AOE tool. My only gripe with Weird is that the crit failure effect remains a Frightened 2 rather than 4 like it is in Phantasmal Killer, but I do wonder if this isn't a misprint.
|
Adding it to the crit fail of the spell won't really do much. At that point, the boss will likely succeed. For example, a generic caster at level 17 would likely have a DC 39 save (10 + level + Master + 21 stat + Apex Item). A typical boss for a party of that level would likely be level 19. The lowest Will save modifier at that level is +29, from the Taiga Linnorm. All of the creatures who aren't outright immune to it only can crit fail against the first save on a nat 1. Assuming they do roll a nat 1, the lowest Fort save is then a Star Archon at +31. They also have the best chance of instantly dying to the spell, at only a 1.5% chance. The worst chance of instantly dying is an Ancient Cloud Dragon at 0.25%.
Basically the point is if it had the incapacitation trait that chance would be 0. You would NEVER be able to insta-kill a boss. At least as it is right now, there's a slim chance, and those slim chances are what make games turn out great for the players.
|
Being able to insta kill the BBEG robs the moment of all the epic that built in all previous encounters toward this final fight. I do not see this as great at all. I much prefer the last combat to be extremely close and hard to win.
When we fought Karzoug, the fight was done pretty quickly and it was disappointing not to be in greater danger for our last fight against the forces of Evil in this AP. Almost like a footnote to the whole saga.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Being able to insta kill the BBEG robs the moment of all the epic that built in all previous encounters toward this final fight. I do not see this as great at all. I much prefer the last combat to be extremely close and hard to win.
When we fought Karzoug, the fight was done pretty quickly and it was disappointing not to be in greater danger for our last fight against the forces of Evil in this AP. Almost like a footnote to the whole saga.
Totally disagree. Why bother having dice in the game if you aren't going to let the dice roll? Story wise its perfectly Ok is the fight with the bosses main beat stick is tougher than the boss itself.
If you want this sort of plot armour for the boss then build it in specifically with other mechanics. The problem is Incapacitation affects so many things. How often do you fight enemies at a higher level than you? Maybe half of all encounters. Why is it that the casters are porked again in this wait with a limited number of top level spell slots.
Not to mention that Weird can be used on the whole PCs' party and their allies too. I do not think anyone relishes being killed in the last fight by two bad rolls.Well, players might exploit it by using hero points, while enemies might not.
Then hand out Villain points !!!
If everyone has points, what's the point?
If you were streaming, villain points are something for the viewers, but in a game, the GM doesn't need such points to determine the result of checks.
For players, hero points are good way to give them more things.
No one said everyone, just the one BBEG who apprently is so vital to the plot to protect that we needed this incapciatation rule in the first place.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Incapacitation also protects players from lower level effects that shouldn't really affect them. "Horde of tiny kobold wizards" springs to mind.
I don't like the incapacitation rules as I think that as a GM I can manage the game without it, but I do see its mechanical benefit.
Yes its a long argument that we don't need to repeat. Some people seem to think it's a good mechanic.
Not to mention that Weird can be used on the whole PCs' party and their allies too. I do not think anyone relishes being killed in the last fight by two bad rolls.Well, players might exploit it by using hero points, while enemies might not.Then hand out Villain points !!!
My table played with this. Unless the GM only uses them defensively, things gets way harder for PCs. We fought many strong enemies and the rare times they missed us, the GM just used a villain point and turned it into hits, often times in critical hits. Worse even is saving on an already hard to fail saving throw (directly nerfing casters, that don't need more than what they already got).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Let the casters have fun with 9th level spells.
While I agree with the sentiment that higher level spells should be and are more powerful, there are a lot of high level spells with Incapacitation.
Let's see - here are 5 on the Occult list: Unfathomable Song, Telepathic Demand, Overwhelming Presence, Bind Soul, Fabricated Truth.
Its a higher percentage of level 9 and 10 spells than at lower levels.
So no Paizo did not let up much at higher level.
|
|
If you really wanted to raise the question, Witches can get a non-incapacitate instant death spell at just 10th level.
Granted, the odds of it tripping instant death are significantly lower and it's slower to cause death. But Curse of Death does exactly what it says if they keep failing saves (but the 24d6 negative damage before they get there...)
Looks like it takes several rounds before the single target dies. So, not what I would call instant death.
In fact, fighting to protect the Witch and other squishies during all these rounds until the hex kills the BBEG seems pretty worthwhile.
|
|
Most spells that have incapacitate at high levels are a single save or die. I've already explained that a typical boss when not immune to death will have at best a 0.25% chance of death (two nat 1s) and at worse a 1.5% chance (Nat 1 followed by a 7 or lower). All adding incapacitate to the crit fail of Weird will do is remove this already tiny chance of the spell insta-killing most higher leveled monsters, with only a few having a 0.25% chance of death.
As for the spells you listed:
Unfathomable Song: You still has a chance to blind the target for a round, and they do have to save every round. More saves means more chances of crit fails. You only lose out on the permanent Stupified 1
Telepathic Demand: Allows you to cast suggestion on a creature telepathically from anywhere on the planet. Only has Incapacitate because it uses Suggestion as the base spell.
Overwhelming Presence: Rather than losing two rounds, makes the enemy lose one action over the next 6 rounds, and is still very useful for triggering allied reactions.
Bind Soul: Does not have Incapacitate.
Fabricated Truth= Level 10 spell, makes the target believe what you tell them, no matter how stupid it is. Can still make them believe it for a week, which is more than enough time to kill them.
Higher level monsters would at worse have a 5% chance to crit fail against these effects, which is much higher than the chance to instantly die to Weird. Even with the trait these spells can still turn the tide of a fight in your favor. Meanwhile not dying to Weird just causes more damage and makes them scared for a few rounds, which isn't as impressive as many of these spells.