Im preparing a video about rules of Perception, Stealth and I want to clarify one question which comes to me after reading all one more time.
Lets think in this scenario:
Ezren, Kyra, Merission and Valeros are walking on one street, daylight. That street's on one district that Merissiel knows she can have some troubles, cause she steal money from the gang boss of that part of the city.
So Merissiel decide to go Avoid Notice with swift sneak so the group walk at normal speed, according with Avoid Notice first phrase, she roll a stealth check (public) and get a 22, this is the part of the text im refering:"You attempt a Stealth check to avoid notice while traveling at half speed. If you have the Swift Sneak feat, you can move at full Speed rather than half, but you still can’t use another exploration activity while you do so"
I always and keep thinking abotut this check it's just for the perception DC of whatever creature that may recognize or attack Merissiel without searchig actively like this case, in which there's 2 memers of the gang on one alley just talking. As their perception DC it's 23 they see Merissiel so one tell to another something like this
- "hey, that one... Is she who stole from the boss?"
+ "Oh yeah, lets beat her"
Then they go to attack Merissiel there's nothing on the street, no people, no crates, nothing to give her cover and then everyone rolls initiative. Merissiel was avoiding notice (trying to keep a low profile, covering her face with a hood, etc.)
And here comes my question, she roll initiative with steal to get her position and to know if she's hidden from the enemies, this come on the end of avoid notice:
"If you’re Avoiding Notice at the start of an encounter, you usually roll a Stealth check instead of a Perception check both to determine your initiative and to see if the enemies notice you (based on their Perception DCs, as normal for Sneak, regardless of their initiative check results)"
So the initive order is this;
Thug 1: 30
Merissiel: 29
Thug 2: 25
1. Merissiel pass their perception DC (23) so is she hidden?
2. The part of the text saying "as normal for sneak" means avoid notice is doing sneak action constantly and she cant be hidden cause she doesnt ended with cover her last move? or just a example of how your stealth check works with the perception DC taking sneak like a example?
I think the 2 is correct and is like im dming, im usually move the avoid notice player token to a position in which can use sneak if possible, but closer to the gropup if not possible, i just put the token right the group.
And please, I dont want to be rude but answer just with references from text, rules, official posts or clips from twitch where they respond to rules questions. For opinion I have my own and my players doesnt have problems of how we are doing it but its for a video so I want to know the official answer. And thanks for reading I know i write A LOT in my posts but im not a native english speaker
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Im preparing a video about rules of Perception, Stealth and I want to clarify one question which comes to me after reading all one more time.
Lets think in this scenario:
Ezren, Kyra, Merission and Valeros are walking on one street, daylight. That street's on one district that Merissiel knows she can have some troubles, cause she steal money from the gang boss of that part of the city.So Merissiel decide to go Avoid Notice with swift sneak so the group walk at normal speed, according with Avoid Notice first phrase, she roll a stealth check (public) and get a 22, this is the part of the text im refering:"You attempt a Stealth check to avoid notice while traveling at half speed. If you have the Swift Sneak feat, you can move at full Speed rather than half, but you still can’t use another exploration activity while you do so"
I always and keep thinking abotut this check it's just for the perception DC of whatever creature that may recognize or attack Merissiel without searchig actively like this case, in which there's 2 memers of the gang on one alley just talking. As their perception DC it's 23 they see Merissiel so one tell to another something like this
- "hey, that one... Is she who stole from the boss?"
+ "Oh yeah, lets beat her"Then they go to attack Merissiel there's nothing on the street, no people, no crates, nothing to give her cover and then everyone rolls initiative. Merissiel was avoiding notice (trying to keep a low profile, covering her face with a hood, etc.)
And here comes my question, she roll initiative with steal to get her position and to know if she's hidden from the enemies, this come on the end of avoid notice:
"If you’re Avoiding Notice at the start of an encounter, you usually roll a Stealth check instead of a Perception check both to determine your initiative and to see if the enemies notice you (based on their Perception DCs, as normal for Sneak, regardless of their initiative check results)"So the initive order is this;...
I think the issue is you are rolling too many times. Merissiel's 22 should be her initiative as well. Check out page 11 of the game mastery guide, and see if that clarifies things.
It doesn't make sense that Merisiel being spotted triggers initiative and then she would be unobserved at the start of combat.
My take on it:
From the section on stealth and initiative in the Gamesmastery Guide and the second part of the description of Avoid Notice in the main rulebook, the implication is that if there is an encounter and a potential for combat then initiative is rolled and at that point you would see if the character remained hidden.
So the order would not be Merisiel makes a stealth check to see if she is detected, then upon failing you switch into encounter mode and everyone including Merisiel rolls for initiative. You would start in encounter mode because it is an encounter.
If you take the text in the Gamemastery guide (Page 11 of the Gamesmastery Guide) the order would be:
-Merisiel useds Avoid Notice during exploration mode
-There is Potential for combat (It is an encounter) so Merisiel rolls stealth for initiative (Because she was using Avoid Notice) the gang members and other party members roll perception for initiative.
-If Merisiel fails to beat the gang members perception DC with her stealth initiative roll, then she is noticed and the gang members take action against her on their initiative.
-If Merisiel's stealth initiative roll is higher than the gang's perception DC then she remains hidden. If Merisiel's presence is the only reason why any further action would occur during the encounter you can just rule everyone continues what they were doing and the encounter ends.
-You could alternatively continue the encounter and make everyone take their actions (Gang members continue what they are doing, party members walk down the street etc) until you reach Merisiel's turn. At which point you could make her use the sneak action to get past the gang members using the normal rules for that action.
Now, the text in the Avoid Notice description (Page 479 of the core rule book) does talk about making a stealth roll to avoid notice as part of the exploration activity but that just gives you a general approach to use during exploration mode. If there is an encounter though then you would probably be best off using the more specific text after that that describes how Avoid Notice works in an encounter.
However, you don't have to use encounter mode, you could just keep it in exploration mode (and in most cases that works fine). However that approach doesn't provide you with hard rules to adjudicate the situation you describe but using the more specific rules and treating it as an encounter does.
I also like the approach taken by Captain Morgan. In effect make Merisiel's initiative roll first and only procede to the rest of the rolls if she fails to beat the perception DC.
Now, the text in the Avoid Notice description (Page 479 of the core rule book) does talk about making a stealth roll to avoid notice as part of the exploration activity but that just gives you a general approach to use during exploration mode. If there is an encounter though then you would probably be best off using the more specific text after that that describes how Avoid Notice works in an encounter.However, you don't have to use encounter mode, you could just keep it in exploration mode (and in most cases that works fine). However that approach doesn't provide you with hard rules to adjudicate the situation you describe but using the more specific rules and treating it as an encounter does
So do you think, if the group is on a dungeon, in formation of Valeros first, Merissiel second, Kyra third and then Ezren. Merissiel is going avoiding notice cause she has trapfinder, then in the next room a group of goblins are doing things, then spot the party and attack.
Merissiel rolls stealth, but she hasnt cover is she hidden? If she beat the Perception DC of the goblins, can the goblins target her without the flat check?
If Merisiel beats the goblins Perception DC then she is unnoticed by them which is a specific condition (page 623) where they know someone is about but not where they are. In effect they have to guess the square she is in and if they guess successfully they roll their DC 11 flat check.
If there is no cover or concealment available then unless they have an ability that lets them hide while observered, Merisiel becomes observed as per the rules for Hide on page 251. However, this would be rare in most settings as there is likely to be something they can take cover behind (Barrels, tables, corners etc).
I would be very careful about having situations where there is no cover/concealment available as it removes tactical options which make the fight less exciting. It also robs some classes of a significant chunk of their key abilities which should be something you should only do in very rare and specific circumstances.
It really helps for this if you think about what is happening in fiction. If there's nothing to hide behind, you're not really Avoiding Notice
so much as just tiptoeing around looking like a weirdo. Most player characters are smarter than Kronk, so I'd assume if they can't hide themselves they wouldn't try to.
What I've started doing is assuming that a character Avoiding Notice is darting from cover to cover, and when initiative is rolled I put them behind the last corner/tree/ bit of furniture they could hide behind. If the rogue is in the lead, the party should ideally stay far enough back to not be immediately spotted as soon as the rogue opens a door or whatever.
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Some important notes:
-Helvellyn possibly means Undetected, which does as they say. Unnoticed is an additional condition that is virtually identical to Undetected, except additionally the enemies don't even know you are in the area to look for you.
-Someone who is Avoiding Notice is likely not opening doors and walking into them in full view of the room's occupants without seeing what's in the room first. If Merisiel going first is absolutely necessary, more likely she opens the door only just barely enough to see the room. The door gives her cover, so if she succeeds, she is undetected behind the door, and if she fails, she is hidden by the door (regardless whether this becomes the initiative roll for the encounter or the party repositions)
-There is actually no particular need for Merisiel to go first here. Exploration mode tactics make no mention of marching order. Unless the party is 6+ people traveling in single-file, the Search tactic (by way of Trapfinder) should allow for Merisiel to notice traps before walking into them even if she is not standing in the front.
-On that same note, a thing that seems to get glossed over with the transition to Encounter Mode is that, depending on circumstances, you might be placing characters on the board during this transition (particularly if you're going theatre-of-the-mind for Exploration GMG p.12) with specific guidance to have characters who are Avoiding Notice placed somewhere that they might reasonably have cover or concealment.
-Finally, normally the Search activity makes no mention of searching for hidden creatures while outside of combat (only 'secret doors, items, or hazards' CRB p.480). This is because under normal circumstances, only one roll is needed for most out-of-combat interactions, and if a creature is hidden to the party, it has already rolled a successful Avoid Notice (Sneak) vs. your Perception DC so there is no need to have searching creatures get a second attempt to notice (presuming this is initiative and combat starts). If combat doesn't start from either a failed Sneak or an ambush attack from hiding, then it falls to a) the party never notices the creature and keeps moving, b) the party in the course of exploring the room provokes hostilities or uncovers the creature, or c) if the party is suspicious of there being a creature, you may just dump them into Encounter Mode or otherwise allow them specifically to spend actions Seeking for Hidden Creatures.
(addendum: if there truly is no cover -anywhere-, then I believe it is correct that the character trying to Avoid Notice would have nothing to hide behind. In such a case, however, it seems like there would be no reason for the encounter not being much earlier since there is actually nothing stopping the party from seeing the enemies and vice versa. Even so, I might be tempted to allow a character Avoiding Notice to gain certain benefits of their sneaking even if they cannot have been truly Hidden (but obviously this is interpretation, not written, as you desire for your video.))
Some important notes:
-Helvellyn possibly means Undetected, which does as they say. Unnoticed is an additional condition that is virtually identical to Undetected, except additionally the enemies don't even know you are in the area to look for you.
Oops. I did indeed mean Undetected.