It seems to me that returning runes are supposed to alleviate all the issues for thrown weapons but that is a more magical fantasy of the knife thrower imo than I like.
There's exactly shuriken as a reload 0 thrown weapon even though there's also throwing knives. And even shuriken you can't use with for instance hunted shot because you have to do 2 shots with the same weapon unless you got a returning rune.
Fane's Fourbery is the kind of thing I'd like for thrown weapons to be more common. Enter a stance to treat a bandolier of knives/throwing axes/darts whatever as 1 weapon allow runes to apply all of them basically have ammunition.
But also make more reload 0 thrown weapons so you can draw the weapons as part of special attacks.
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This kind of build is what makes me like it the removal of mandatory items and the Automatic Bonus Progression rules even more. Under those, thrown builds works in anyway you want, while they're are unusable if you want to do anything other than choose a weapon and make it return over and over again, which is very restricting. I always wanted to play a throwing build that drew on several knives during the course of a fight, but is never feasible because of the Striking Runes after 4th level.
Having a stance enabling the playstyle would be perfect, because it could become an archetype so you could apply on the classes you wished.
I agree that it sucks that the remedy for needing magical weapons for damage is to have additional magic like a returning rune or a magical bandolier/belt (like PF1).
Perhaps this thread will ignite something to encourage Paizo to write more support for this style.
This kind of build is what makes me like it the removal of mandatory items and the Automatic Bonus Progression rules even more. Under those, thrown builds works in anyway you want, while they're are unusable if you want to do anything other than choose a weapon and make it return over and over again, which is very restricting. I always wanted to play a throwing build that drew on several knives during the course of a fight, but is never feasible because of the Striking Runes after 4th level.
Having a stance enabling the playstyle would be perfect, because it could become an archetype so you could apply on the classes you wished.
I've never before considered that Automatic Bonus Progression does away with issues like this. The gunslinger is going through a similar thing rn that'd be alleviated by it.
And yeah an archetype would be nice for this kind of character.
What do you think about using Twinning as a baseline to create ammunition that matches the base weapon? The ammunition only exists for 1 round, so you can throw shuriken a plenty but they go away a round later. It would be similar to Abundant Ammunition in 1E.
If you lose the base weapon, you're in trouble. I realize that doesn't work for PFS, but it may be something to use as a seed for the discussion with your GM.
to homebrew I'd just use Fane's Fourbery as a baseline for any sort of throwing weapon and play around with that.
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I stumbled upon the issue when I tried to make some thrown weapon builds without having a main weapon with the Returning rune. I realized that if you wanted to do a Flying Dagger type of character that wore a belt full of knives or using the Monk's Shooting Star Stance, you wouldn't make them as they are normally portrayed in media, since you're basically held hostage by investing in a single weapon and with a mandatory returning rune. With APB on, you can just worry about drawing and throwing, you won't be gimping yourself at higher levels.
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Personally I dont mind returning much. Since it allows throwing characters be quite viable and flavorful. Also players can melee with the weapons too.
I feel this is always a tough thing with games that have high magic items. Since without returning on a weapon it is very tough.
I guess the main option would be like Fane's where you enchant a "bag" for ammunition. I am not sure I like Fane's much more than returning though since it requires a stance and an action the first round.
The other issue with an ammunition bag is that you cant really use special abilities since you have to "quick draw" every round.
I really loved 3rd edition Dagger Master who was throwing truckloads of daggers every round for low damage each. Only issue: as it was impossible to have dozens of magical daggers you were screwed everytime the enemy was having a damage reduction.
This build would be very easy to do in PF2 as most damage reductions can be avoided with level 2 items. I even think it would be a crazy funny build (maybe class) to create. Throwers would be about quantity and not quality.
Personally I dont mind returning much. Since it allows throwing characters be quite viable and flavorful. Also players can melee with the weapons too.
I feel this is always a tough thing with games that have high magic items. Since without returning on a weapon it is very tough.
I guess the main option would be like Fane's where you enchant a "bag" for ammunition. I am not sure I like Fane's much more than returning though since it requires a stance and an action the first round.
The other issue with an ammunition bag is that you cant really use special abilities since you have to "quick draw" every round.
that's whyadding reload 0 or 1 would also be important. Fane's Fourbery works because it's a deck of cards you hold in your hand, I think, it's not quite clear if you need to draw each card or if you're already wielding them.
Shuriken are the only reload 0 thrown weapon but something like throwing knives and hatches could get reload added through a stance imo w/o becoming too powerful, and if it were you could always remove the ability to melee with them while in the stance.
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I don't care what it is exactly, but something needs to support the trope of having a cloak filled with daggers that you draw and throw as your attacks each turn. And all of those daggers need to be equally magically effective without having to pay for more than 1.
S!!%, maybe the answer is a magical cloak or bandolier that has an extradimensional space and any thrown weapon you pull out is treated as the level of magic you've paid for while holding it or until thrown (and that attack has resolved).
Of course, I still hate that you're just using more magic to make up for the lack of magic rather than it just being something the character can do as part of themselves. But that's why Automatic Bonus Progression (with rules accounting for this) should be the default.
Characters are so awesome their attacks become magical.
Needing magical weapons and armor makes me sad :'(
I haven't got to play it yet but I do think automatic bonus progression should have been the default.
It just seems so amazing. Not only does it allow for some more interesting builds but it also should make the game so much smoother. Martials aren't "stuck" using whatever weapons they upgrade.
Not having to go back to town and buy all your skill/perception/fundamental runes seems like it would be great.
Skill items are by far the biggest issue. I don't think any player should have to put so much effort in trying to find skill items. Everything just has such weird names :(
Fundamental runes aren't a horrible annoyance other than the "we should go back to town because we should pick up some better runes that occurs"
Overall I am not sure of the real downsides of automatic bonus progression. It seems like it would just make everything smoother. I guess if people really get enjoyment buying +1 potency / striking / resiliency runes they might prefer base progression.
I guess the other downsides is that it helps martials more I guess, but with automatic bonus progression as long as the caster has enough gold for a staff they should be good. Also it would be nice to be able to carry around a bow as a caster! Overall I guess it makes the game easier too which could be seen as a downside.
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The issue @RPGnoremac is that it was voted on the surveys. Lots of people decided to keep the mandatory items in the game. Most of those that voted were either traditionalists or people that didn't think enough about the impact these items have in the game. My only respite is the fact that in this edition, even though you still have to buy mandatory stuff, you still have a lot of money for actually cool stuff at higher levels on top of the necessary.
But, yes, "ABP" should've have been baseline and I'm glad that Mark Seifter also agreed and he brought it to the system as soon as possible and in a much better form than how it was implemented in PF1e.
No support? Do the necklace of knives and the ranged doubling rings coming out soon not count?
I'm thinking if you can talk your GM into allowing a cloak that operates like the necklace of knives, then you've effectively got your "cloak full of knives" trope down pat. Having a primary knife with your favorite runes and the ranged doubling rings should allow you to have infinite thrown magical daggers.
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No support? Do the necklace of knives and the ranged doubling rings coming out soon not count?
Well I know that things that haven't come out and that I can't look over to check don't count. Don't count your chickens before they're hatched. ;)
No support? Do the necklace of knives and the ranged doubling rings coming out soon not count?
I'm thinking if you can talk your GM into allowing a cloak that operates like the necklace of knives, then you've effectively got your "cloak full of knives" trope down pat. Having a primary knife with your favorite runes and the ranged doubling rings should allow you to have infinite thrown magical daggers.
I've not seen the rules text for those.
Maybe they meet the needs, but seeing as those are playtest items it's only now that the need is being addressed due to the addition of the gunslinger.
While the dagger throwing rogue was a non-functional concept unless you got returning on both your daggers, and even then the doubling ring didn't let you throw them and keep the magic.
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I've not seen the rules text for those.
I've edited my post above to include a link to the rules text, where appropriate.
...but seeing as those are playtest items...
The necklace of knives is available now, as it released with Gods & Magic.
No support? Do the necklace of knives and the ranged doubling rings coming out soon not count?
I'm thinking if you can talk your GM into allowing a cloak that operates like the necklace of knives, then you've effectively got your "cloak full of knives" trope down pat. Having a primary knife with your favorite runes and the ranged doubling rings should allow you to have infinite thrown magical daggers.
the ranged doubling rings only work for your primary weapon and an out of combat designated ranged weapon I think.
Necklace of knives is neat but idk how that'd work with potency runes w/o ABP
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I've not seen the rules text for those.I've edited my post above to include a link to the rules text, where appropriate.
...but seeing as those are playtest items...The necklace of knives is available now, as it released with Gods & Magic.
Necklace of knives helps with the "how do I have 100 knives on me" question, but it doesn't make the magical or give them fundamental runes, which is the real problem for the play style.
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Necklace of knives' daggers aren't enchanted, so there's no scaling there. It also takes an action to summon each dagger, so it'd be terrible for a throwing build.
To be honest, I don't think those style help all that much, unless I misunderstand them.
Those stances limit it to one thrown range increment. So if I throw my dagger from more than 10ft away I'm hosed.
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Light hammers bring that up to 20 feet though I'd picture that as more of a dwarf approach. And my GM would probably throw dice at me when I yelled "Stop, Hammer time" with the first attack.
Bladed Diabolo gets you 40', but the giant pointy yoyo of doom is advanced AND uncommon so it's not too popular.
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Light hammers bring that up to 20 feet though I'd picture that as more of a dwarf approach. And my GM would probably throw dice at me when I yelled "Stop, Hammer time" with the first attack.Bladed Diabolo gets you 40', but the giant pointy yoyo of doom is advanced AND uncommon so it's not too popular.
And, unlike other Uncommon Advanced weapons, you cannot bypass the access/proficiency requirements unless your GM is VERY friendly.
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Light hammers bring that up to 20 feet though I'd picture that as more of a dwarf approach. And my GM would probably throw dice at me when I yelled "Stop, Hammer time" with the first attack.
That still leaves the dagger throwing rogue out in the cold though, which was kind of my trope focus.
Like it doesn't have to be the best, but it should be possible and it shouldn't have undue burdens on it, and shouldn't be forced to only use two daggers with returning on them, and shouldn't have to separately enchant both with runes.
There's just so many problems trying to make a successful dagger throwing character that it's not even worth it.