How to encourage players to tackle a puzzle.

[Sysryke]

Wasn't sure how to title this thread properly, so please bear with me for a somewhat wordy explanation.

This is very preemptive. I'm in a group where we all share/rotate GMing duties. None of us are "pure" GM's at heart, so we pass the job around so that everyone gets a chance to "just play". I've got an idea for a puzzle encounter, and roughly half of our group really loves puzzles. Pick a playing motivation/preference, and someone at the table probably has it, but we're all pretty good about allowing for different types of fun and play.

What I'm looking for are tips or recommendations on how to get the group to actually take on and solve a puzzle, as opposed to avoiding it or finding some other work around. I know a pretty solid rule of GMing is to prepare for all of your plans to be for naught, but that's particularly gutting when you've put in a lot of time and energy into developing something cool, especially if you know you've got players who will enjoy the fruits of your labors. That being said, I absolutely do not want to fish hook or railroad the group either. I'm trying to find a balance.

To set the scene (as roughly framed as it currently is), I want to do a gridwork/logic puzzle. They probably have a proper name, but I'm blanking at the moment. Hopefully some of you remember this from school days.

Example puzzle: You have five people, each of them has a different pet, and each pet has a different toy. Using a series of clues, you have to figure out which pet, and which toy, belongs to which person. Usually this is laid out as a series of grids showing the possible combinations, and you mark off excluded combos from the clues, until the final answer presents itself logically.

I want to do something like this with a group of monsters having a dinner with each guest having a different entree, and each being served on a specific type of dish. Those details truly don't matter at this stage.

What I'm looking for are ways to encourage the party in game to stick with the puzzle, as opposed to just triggering a combat, blowing it all up, or time passing it all by trying every possible combination.

I know I can put in repeatable trap/magic damage. I can have some kind of event or threat looming, that makes in game time sensitive, I can dole out extra clues of promised rewards to make the puzzle more enticing. I'm just looking for inspiration, ideas, or mechanics to help make the puzzle the most appealing option. I don't want to bottle neck the story when this event comes; but I'd like to try and stack things so that solving the puzzle is the best or most logical choice.

Any and all ideas are welcome, as long as it's not "hate puzzle, that dumb". I'll try to answer any questions as I can. Thanks folks.

[yukongil]

a heavy handed clue that going the beat 'em up route can be key. Probably the easiest is to have that part of the puzzle be filled by things that the party can readily and at a glance tell is waaaaay above their pay grade. If using the example of the monster's dinner, fill it with greater demons, elder dragons, titans, etc...then after you get the rolls to disbelieve illusions out of the way, the party should figure out that punching their way to a solution isn't going to work.

You can also "groundhog day it", so that any solution but solving the puzzle just causes a reset. While ultimately railroady, it can be played for great laughs and fun if you roll with their "wrong" choices, detail the gruesome or ultimately futile attempts and then reset everything.

or you can entice the solving of the puzzle another way by having a benefactor or quest giver stress the importance of not committing the ultimate social faux pas and attacking the dinner guests, perhaps because it could cause an international or even inter-dimensional war or some such.

[Matthew Downie]

The problem with a puzzle like that is that the one of the players will probably be better at that kind of puzzle than the others. That player will solve it on their own; the other players might as well not bother.

I've had similar problems with puzzles, in that one player wrote down all the details, and the rest didn't. When the time came to work out which key went with which lock, the player who'd written it down was the only one in a good position to solve it, so the others just sat there.

Some ideas (if you're sure you want to go through with this):

Prepare enough print-outs for the details the players are going to have so everyone can work on it simultaneously. (This assumes you're all in the same room.)

Consider making it a puzzle where you can't just solve it all in one go, you have to find and assemble all the clues and components first.

If possible, make the details actually matter. If the puzzle is completely abstract and you might as well be generating a series of numbers, it's not intriguing. If the details of the puzzle will give away the villain's plans, then the players will care more.

Make the puzzle be the thing between the PCs and something they really want.

Give the 50% of players who probably aren't going to engage with the puzzle things to do. Consider what else they might try to do, and prepare things to happen when they do. Maybe there are scrolls to read with plot-relevant history on them. Maybe someone who tries to knock the puzzle-locked door down is teleported to a small room which drops them onto a slide which leads back to the main room. Maybe there's a small annoying magic mouth in the wall that the players can talk to.

Quote:

What I'm looking for are ways to encourage the party in game to stick with the puzzle, as opposed to just triggering a combat

Don't put in anyone to attack?

Quote:

blowing it all up

Put in something fragile and valuable, or someone who needs rescuing who would also get blown up?

Quote:

trying every possible combination.

Literally any punishment for failure should achieve this.

Link to an old thread discussing puzzles with lots of people telling me not to use puzzles

[Sysryke]

Thanks to you both so far. Some really good ideas in there. This is definitely something I do plan on running, but it's probably several months away. I really liked the ideas of making the guest clearly OP threats, and the layering in of story clues to the puzzle. I do plan on actually bringing some props and/or the pre-made grid(s) so that folks have something to engage with. I think I'll probably also scatter in some "hidden" clues, so that those who don't necessarily want to tackle the puzzle, can still contribute information towards the goal through other actions/efforts.

Open to more ideas and comments. Does anyone have any thoughts on a semi-story organic way to bring the puzzle back around if it gets bypassed the first time? I did love the groundhog day idea. Made me laugh.

[avr]

Skills or magic giving hints (good/big ones) might help. If a PC finds such a clue which is theirs they have an incentive to engage with the puzzle.

If people get frustrated then don't get in the way of them solving it using Alexander the Great's approach to the Gordian Knot though.

[Mudfoot]

Puzzles are like traps, in that they give one or two players something to do while everyone else sits around, and maybe some resources get used. Then move on.

So like traps, combine the puzzle with something else. It could be a chase, a combat, an RP encounter, a flooding room or some other stressor. Solving the puzzle should help with the coincident problem, so it doesn't simply become fight-then-solve.

[SheepishEidolon]

I used to hate puzzles with a passion, but lately I read a book chapter about them and figured they can be done properly:

The Art of Game Design wrote:

Good Puzzles

Puzzle Principle #1: Make the Goal Easily Understood

#2: Make It Easy to Get Started

#3: Give a Sense of Progress

#4: Give a Sense of Solvability

#5: Increase Difficulty Gradually

Now this is a very short extract and there are 5 further, more specific principles, but IMO it's a good starting point.

[Quixote]

Going to try to contribute something more, rather than parroting all of the points already covered.

I've found a more whimsical, self-aware sort of fairy-tale tone can help make games run smoothly. Like, "well, X always happens about now in all the stories, so we'd better do X!" Sort of a circular self-justifying motivation. But that certainly can't be for every game.

With your idea, you could:

-require the PC's to gather up rare ingredients, maybe with a mini-encounter revolving around a particular ability or skill set. You need fire resistance to pick wyrm-berries, or a really good Acrobatics to dodge the leaves of the razor-tree, etc.

-the actual preparation of the dishes could require some kind of skill or ability (Craft or Profession for a complex recipe, Sleight of Hand to ease a souffle out of the oven, a Fortitude save to endure the cooking process of Otyugh Surprise).

-the cook book is an ancient tome written in a forgotten tongue, laden with runic traps.

-there are rats in the kitchen. Big ones. Some of the heroes will need to fend them off while the others finish plating.

-the stove is an intelligent (and belligerent) inanimate object or fireproof mimic, and needs to be bribed or coerced into cooperating.

Something for your puzzle-people, and then something for the strong/tough/quick/smart/sauve people who aren't.

[Hugo Rune]

I've tinkered with the idea of a logic puzzle. But as the reveal to a mystery plot. The players undertake various adventures and find clues that point to something larger.

[TxSam88]

be sure to include a way for the character to solve it (i.e. make an intelligence check to solve the puzzle). remember it's the characters that are in the room with the puzzle, not the players.

[gnoams]

The problem with puzzles is they're solo activities, and this is a group game. So the challenge is to make a puzzle that requires and is fun for a group.

You could try the ddo shroud technique. The pcs go through a portal and end up in separate chambers, with a puzzle in each one, and a wall of force blocking the exit. Solving the puzzle drops the wall of force, at which point you can go look in any of the other rooms and help out your friends who haven't solved their own puzzles yet.

[Quixote]

TxSam88 wrote:

be sure to include a way for the character to solve it (i.e. make an intelligence check to solve the puzzle). remember it's the characters that are in the room with the puzzle, not the players.

I would have to disagree, to a point. If it's a series of dice rolls for a couple of skills or, worse, a single dice roll or, worst of all, a series of dice rolls for the and skill, then it might as well not be a puzzle. Could be a stuck door or a tall cliff at that point.

You want to allow the players to utilize the character's skills and abilities, but you also want to engage the players themselves and reward them for a game well-played.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Sysryke wrote:

What I'm looking for are ways to encourage the party in game to stick with the puzzle, as opposed to just triggering a combat, blowing it all up, or time passing it all by trying every possible combination.

Ok, encouraging the PCs to stick with the puzzle: you've got two options - incentive or consequence. Either they get something for completing the puzzle, something worth more than the effort and resources spent, or there's some negative response for not completing it.

The obvious answers are treasure for incentive, damage and/or the threat of PC death for consequence. Those are fine, here are some others:

Incentives: NPC boon; free 1/day SU ability such as Fire Breath or Beast Shape 2; free Feat; free minor at-will ability, such as any Cantrip/Orison or a non-combat level 1 Arcane/Divine spell, such as Comprehend Languages; the freedom or betterment of some vital NPC; key information important to the plot; access to another plane or some other fantastic location; treasure of a non-adventuring sort, such as land grants, Capital (if using the Downtime rules), or the placement of a specific land feature (such as the regrowth of a forest, renewal of a polluted river, etc); a special mount or free monstrous cohort

Consequences: ruination of a person, place or thing not immediately in the party; destruction of a prized possession; permanent loss of a class ability (TREAD LIGHTLY here - if this is selected you need to be extremely careful and transparent; use with caution); affliction of a disease or curse that cannot be conventionally resisted/removed; creation of a Hazard which will have exponential impact on the game world (examples include slow, steady expansion of an evil swamp, an ooze that just keeps getting bigger, growing numbers of waves of undead sieging an area every 7 days, and so on); loss of treasure; negative story impacts (examples include all prices being raised to the PCs and all NPCs automatically starting with an Unfriendly attitude due to a horrible reputation, a local monarch vowing to hunt the PCs down, or the enmity of a demon)

The key to both incentives and consequences is to tie them to the successful completion of the puzzle through a puzzle-solving means, not just blunt forcing their way through. There's a famous example in the movie Army of Darkness. The main character needs to recite three words perfectly; he forgets one, tryies to fake his way through and still ends up getting the treasure from the puzzle, but enacts a terrible curse in the process.

Now resolving a puzzle through "puzzle-solving" means does not mean there's only ONE way to solve the puzzle. You're creating a logic grid where one monster is tied to one form of food. If PCs SAY the food in the right place at the right time, they've successfully completed that section of the grid. Alternatively, one of them with Profession: Cook might opt to try to MAKE the meal in an appointed place at the appointed time - this could ALSO satisfy the puzzle.

In the end you're not so much rewarding the right answer that YOU wanted, but rather the successful resolution of a problem thanks to the players' efforts.

As Sheepy Mc Eidolon quoted upthread you want to "give a sense of progress." Consider yet another movie, The Goonies. In this movie a bunch of kids need to solve a musical puzzle; in the process the camera cuts quickly to a section of the wall opening a tiny bit when they get correct answers while there is an environmental consequence slowly expanding for the wrong ones.

This is one way to indicate that progress. Note that it basically boils down to incremental incentives or consequences. Now apply this to your OP situation.

Each answer to the logic puzzle boxes is something along the lines of "The Mindflayer… being served chilled human brains... in a silver dessert cup" or whatever. If the PCs just stand in the room and shout out random combos, you could have the doors slam shut and become held by magic on the first one, then spikes extend from the roof on the second one, and finally have the third wrong answer set the roof pushing down towards the floor.

On the other hand, if the PCs successfully get this answer fully right, perhaps one of their weapons is suddenly cleaned and repaired as if Mending and Prestidigitation had just been cast on them at once. You could even give them micro-rewards, like if they guess chilled HUMAN brains but not the dish type, the doors lock but a soft glow illuminates the image of the food in the air in green while a Magic Mouth says "correct."

A couple of folks have brought up how hard it is to motivate ALL the players to participate in the puzzle. This is correct and frankly the MOST difficult thing about puzzle encounters IMO. Here I don't have an easy answer b/c unlike straight up combat, the puzzle isn't directly threatening all the PCs at once and there isn't an obvious goal and action that can be taken to complete the goal.

In other words, when you say "roll initiative" and begin putting kobold minis on the battle map, everyone knows what's happening, how their character is built to end it, and what the consequence is for non-participation. Puzzles are a lot more cerebral - they aren't shooting arrows at the party every round or swinging swords.

Or aren't they?

This goes to what the Foot of Mud mentioned: attacks from the puzzle or escalating consequences for engaging with it can be used to SIMULATE combat. There's plenty of spells that summon or create something; triggering magic, once the puzzle is initially engaged, that spontaneously generates an arrow and fires it in the direction of the PCs is possible. As rounds go on, the arrows get closer. PCs can either solve the puzzle, mitigate the danger or both; this then gives EVERYONE something to do.

Finally, don't underestimate the power of mechanics. Calling for initiative helps players think in terms of combat which, in turn, can help motivate them to come up with some action their PC is taking and thus get involved. Just like with some systems' Skill Challenge mechanic however, be prepared for the players using any and all skills to resolve the puzzle, once engaged.

In fact, PLAN for it.

Look at the character sheets of the PCs in the game. If the fighter has ranks in Climb and Swim and the PCs are still low enough level to do mundane swimming, maybe put a clue at the bottom of a pool, held down by a heavy weight. Play to the strengths of the characters but expect the unexpected.

Maybe a player just gets the puzzle outright and helps their other players understand how to answer things w/out using any character skills. Perhaps instead the players are stuck and need a hint - Knowledge checks, handouts or maps, or just reminders of personal experience can be enough to spur them forward. Still other ways though that players might surprise you is constructing meals or items, taking it on themselves to hunt up rare ingredients, or use obscure skills on their character sheets.

Again, you're rewarding the participation of the players towards the conclusion of the puzzle, not the "right" answer so run with what they suggest if you can.

[TxSam88]

Quixote wrote:

TxSam88 wrote:

be sure to include a way for the character to solve it (i.e. make an intelligence check to solve the puzzle). remember it's the characters that are in the room with the puzzle, not the players.

I would have to disagree, to a point. If it's a series of dice rolls for a couple of skills or, worse, a single dice roll or, worst of all, a series of dice rolls for the and skill, then it might as well not be a puzzle. Could be a stuck door or a tall cliff at that point.

You want to allow the players to utilize the character's skills and abilities, but you also want to engage the players themselves and reward them for a game well-played.

Sure, but not every player is good at puzzles or cares to engage with puzzles. However, their character might be much better (or worse) at puzzles than the player should be. The players should not be penalized for not being good at something their character should be good at. So, let the player work on the puzzle for a bit, but if they become frustrated or stuck, then give a roll to see if their character sees a solution or clue that the player might not. I didn't say not to include puzzles, but to include the roll as an out (i.e. a way the character can do it) in case the player cannot.

[VoodistMonk]

How to get players to want to approach a puzzle dungeon/campaign...? Start with players that want to combine Dungeons and Dragons with Clue.

Want to know what made Assassin's Creed suck? When they started combining it with Sherlock Holmes nonsense... am I killing people or finding where in the world is Carmen Sandiego?

Either is fine, but define your terms from the start. Don't try combine the two... make a mystery/puzzle and run it as such. Tell everyone from the start that this is a who'dun'it campaign.

Make sure people choose classes that aren't stoopid... as in people who can actually participate and contribute to solving your clues. Probably Investigators/Alchemists, Rangers/Slayers, Inquisitors... cherry pick players that will build solid, no nonsense characters. That way they aren't wasting all their feats on combat crap. Can actually play into the intrigue instead of chasing dumb$#!+ maneuver feats or whatever else gimmick BS builds exist.

Study good mysteries, pay attention to setting and tempo. Make sure they can't solve the whole thing with a few lucky rolls. Weave a web of trails to specific pieces of information, throw the party into the web. They wander around blindly, bumping into clues until they have enough pieces to start putting together the bigger picture.

Hope you have a party that enjoys that style of gameplay...

[Quixote]

TxSam88 wrote:

Sure, but not every player is good at puzzles or cares to engage with puzzles...let the player work on the puzzle for a bit, but if they become frustrated or stuck, then give a roll to see if their character sees a solution or clue that the player might not. I didn't say not to include puzzles, but to include the roll as an out (i.e. a way the character can do it) in case the player cannot.

Like I said earlier, making sure the players are engaged is important. So offering different types of conflict that can be resolved with different types of solutions is key, of course.

But with that said, you don't have to do that every moment of the whole game. If some people end up sitting out for most of an encounter because it's "just not their style", then oh well. You can't please everyone all the time. Just don't exclude people multiple times in a row.

Including a failsafe "in case of frustration, roll d20" type of thing is just bad encounter design. Better to set up the encounter to prevent frustration in the first place. Which is where puzzles get tricky; too broad and they don't feel satisfying, too specific and they become impossible.

VoodistMonk wrote:

How to get players to want to approach a puzzle dungeon/campaign...? Start with players that want to combine Dungeons and Dragons with Clue.

Want to know what made Assassin's Creed suck? When they started combining it with Sherlock Holmes nonsense... am I killing people or finding where in the world is Carmen Sandiego?

Either is fine, but define your terms from the start. Don't try combine the two... make a mystery/puzzle and run it as such. Tell everyone from the start that this is a who'dun'it campaign...Hope you have a party that enjoys that style of gameplay...

I mean...I don't think that's what the OP was talking about. They have a puzzle-ENCOUNTER in mind not a puzzle-CAMPAIGN. And puzzles are every bit a part of the classic dungeon crawl as wandering monster tables.

And sure, let your players know at session zero if you'll be running an intrigue-focused game. Same goes for a combat-focused one.

[Philippe Lam]

It has to feel natural into the session. If you're making too obvious you want to push them into a puzzle, it won't work.

[Scott Wilhelm]

You should make the puzzle easier to solve than you think it should be. It seems that a fantasy tabletop is a poor platform for solving logic puzzles, and seemingly easy puzzles can stump the smartest players.

[Hugo Rune]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

You should make the puzzle easier to solve than you think it should be.

I absolutely agree with this statement. Something you as the GM think is obvious can be very difficult for the players who are not following the same thought process you did and who are totally reliant on your descriptions for information and clues.

Comsider handing extra clues to the players based on their characters' knowledge skills, int score and/or previous experiences that the players may have overlooked.

[Sysryke]

Thank every single one of you for your responses. I'm not sure if it's the stress of the year, or just my weird nature, but you all actually made me cry (happy tears). I've gotten a lot or really wonderful ideas and images out of what you've shared; and, I think when I build this, it will be a much richer experience for all of your input. Stuff like this is why I value this community so much.

Even those of you who may have meandered off of my original idea, or given contradictory notes, have helped me to develop ideas and watch for potential pitfalls.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I feel very well answered, but am always open to more ideas or input. If anyone has any scenarios or puzzle ideas or questions they want to add or discuss, feel free. I won't consider the thread hijacked at all.

[PCScipio]

You need to make sure that the significance of the clues is unambiguous, and that it's clear what each clue means. Otherwise the players may draw a conclusion that you weren't anticipating.

[ErichAD]

That sort of puzzle sounds like it would make a good haunt style encounter. The puzzle resets if solved incorrectly, and you can make it relatively non threatening if you want. You could rope the players back in by having recurring events related to new adventurers discovering and attempting to solve the haunt. Rashes of cutlery theft, chef kidnappings, and so on.

The players both need to know the answer, and use the answer. Make sure that whatever method is needed for using the answer engages players that weren't engaged in the knowing portion.

[VoodistMonk]

Make use of skills that only certain characters have, so everyone has a turn at solving different clues. Or challenges that have multiple solutions... like the Half-Orc Barbarian might be able to lift the gate, or the Kobold can probably squeeze through the bars. Keep everyone engaged.

Oh, that trait you started with but haven't used in 4 levels? Suddenly came in handy (made this clue just for you, you're welcome). Aren't traits awesome?

This guy's class ability for this clue, that obscure feat she took for that other clue... literally custom clues that highlight different character's various abilities. Like a showcase to make each character look like a freaking rockstar OUT OF COMBAT.

Yeah, sure, there IS a Gorgotaur chasing them, or a Vampire, they like puzzles, too... but the main focus is the party's ability to collect and put together clues.

[gnoams]

More group ideas:

Having some physical nature to the puzzle for the characters. Like a bunch of pressure plates and each character has to stand on a different one to activate it. (chessboards are a classic version). Or a bunch of levers spread over a large area that need to be activated in quick sequence. So the pcs need to split up, stand at each one, and coordinate.

Another classic is the locked door puzzle, where monsters come at the group continuously until they get through the door and close it behind them. Or the monster spawning contraption/portal/whatever that is shut down by completing the puzzle.

Another is the boss power down puzzle, where the group is fighting an enemy who is drawing power from some arcane contraption or whatever. By solving the puzzle, they strip buffs off the boss. This one is often an incremental puzzle, with each step further depowering the boss.

There was a few pfs scenarios that I recall with puzzles like that, where the puzzle wasn't strictly required to do. So you could just muscle through, but a clever group would have an easier go at it.

I find that the difficulty of puzzles is really hard to gauge. You might write a puzzle that seems straight forward to you, but the way you describe it doesn't click with your players, or they somehow miss critical information. On the other hand, there's 5 of them and 1 of you, odds are good they can out think you.