WandaVision on Disney+

[ellisael]

I didn't have expectations watching the teaser and started watching on my friend's insistence. Contrary to my expectations though, was simply hooked to it.

[JoelF847]

Thomas Seitz wrote:

I enjoyed the fact there was a live studio audience for episode 1.

It wasn't clear to me if the live studio audience was for more than the 1st episode. I thought it might have been the first 2, but the documentary wasn't clear either way. Either way, it was definitely cool.

[Mark Hoover 330]

DQ, I owe you an apology. I went back and rewatched the post credit scene; I DO see where it portrays a note of concern when Wanda hears her kids screaming. I had a negative read on the end of the show and let that color my judgement of the post credit scene, so I apologize.

I would like to see a serious redemption arc for Wanda though. As it stands Iron Man spent his life trying to make amends for the damage done by Stark, then admitted he was Iron Man and even tried to publicly clean up the messes the Avengers made. Cap is just a boy scout through and through. Quill denied godlike power and was willing to risk his life against Ego. Thor sacrificed Asgard and triggered Ragnarok to slay his own sister.

Not to mention all the very serious battles they've all had with depression, loss, and trauma. All of them have risen up, genuinely tried to give back to the world and confronted their problems, and an ungrateful populace, head on. Wanda tortured an entire town of innocents for a week to create her own extended therapy session, then ran away.

Yes, Wanda DID sacrifice her family. However, by accepting that Pietro wasn't her brother and that the Hex wasn't real, she quite literally accepted that these were creations of her own mind, not her real kids and husband. I'm inferring that from her line about Vision being the remains of the Mind Stone but I might be off.

Still, she came to terms on some level with profound loss by imprisoning and hurting others, then ran from the consequences of that action. Stark stood on a stage, admitted to the world he was Iron Man and in so doing made himself liable for every single bit of collateral damage his armored persona would ever inflict; Wanda abandoned a car in NJ and flew to a remote mountain cabin.

I would like the Scarlet Witch to get a comeback, a chance to be a hero.

[Quark Blast]

Scarlet Witch will get to do whatever the PowersThatBe think will make the most bank, and given the setup in WandaVision, I'd say redemption is not in the cards.

But if they can do it, whoa!, that'll be one epic tale.

My meager hope is that they break from the 'third act' super-dupes smackdown formula for the next MCU installment.

[dirtypool]

Quark Blast wrote:

Scarlet Witch will get to do whatever the PowersThatBe think will make the most bank, and given the setup in WandaVision, I'd say redemption is not in the cards.

But if they can do it, whoa!, that'll be one epic tale.

My meager hope is that they break from the 'third act' super-dupes smackdown formula for the next MCU installment.

... cool

[DeathQuaker]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

DQ, I owe you an apology. I went back and rewatched the post credit scene; I DO see where it portrays a note of concern when Wanda hears her kids screaming. I had a negative read on the end of the show and let that color my judgement of the post credit scene, so I apologize.

No need to apologize, though I appreciate the acknowledgement. Sometimes we see different things in the same stuff; sometimes the different things we see are legit alternate takes, sometimes some of us pick up on details other don't. I am always happy to argue passionately about my POV with those interested in genuine exploration of the show (or whatever subject the thread is on), but I always strive--acknowledging that I sometimes fail--toward the goal of having thought-provoking discussion, not of "winning" the "who has the best interpretation" no-prize.

And I thank you for being as passionate as well as genuine in your responses and engagement with the subject. I would always rather see folks like you diving deep into the material, even if there is vehement disagreement among us, than see others get baited into someone else's barely-topical, desperately lonely internet-based-ego-trip-for-attention.

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I would like to see a serious redemption arc for Wanda though.

I am truly hopeful this is the start of a story rather than the end/complete arc. Since we know we'll see Wanda in the Multiverse of Madness, and folks are at least being tightlipped about a "WandaVision Season 2" (even if it is only not to make promises they can't keep), we at least know this is not the last we will see of her. So there is at least potential for more growth.

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As it stands Iron Man spent his life trying to make amends for the damage done by Stark, then admitted he was Iron Man and even tried to publicly clean up the messes the Avengers made. Cap is just a boy scout through and through. Quill denied godlike power and was willing to risk his life against Ego. Thor sacrificed Asgard and triggered Ragnarok to slay his own sister.

I am hopeful this new phase, especially with further series on Disney+, creates the opportunty for more well-rounded development for our heroes. (And while I realize this parenthetical, intended to be an aside, statement risks stoking fanboy fury, I still think Cap got zero character development after The Winter Soldier and had a poor, unsatisfying ending that renders him a two-dimensional non-hero contrary to his boy scout image. I recognize am severely in the minority with this opinion.) To the point of the subject I think Marvel can do better than it has done on fleshing out their characters, and in my opinion, WandaVision shows they can do this.

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Not to mention all the very serious battles they've all had with depression, loss, and trauma.

Which in my opinion have always been dealt with half-assedly; it would take too long to dive into it here, but one of my eternal gripes with the MCU is that the characters always run away from their trauma and hide behind it by fighting (you can fight AND also confront trauma). I feel the only exceptions to this rule, outside of your Iron Man example, are WandaVision and Marvel's Agent Carter, which interesting is also a television series about a prior-to-this Marvel side character coming to terms with grief (in a much less damaging-to-others way, fully admittedly; but Peggy is not Wanda).

I wish I could see the other character's arcs the way you do.

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All of them have risen up, genuinely tried to give back to the world and confronted their problems, and an ungrateful populace, head on.

Did they? I would agree that Iron Man did. I'm not sure I fully agree on the others.

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Wanda tortured an entire town of innocents for a week to create her own extended therapy session, then ran away.

Wanda unknowingly tortured an entirely town of innocents; when Vision tried to call her attention to the torture, Agatha actively interfered to get rid of him before Wanda was ready to recognize and accept it because Agatha had her own plans; and once Wanda was finally was able to fully learn of and accept this reality of torture (which Agatha only eventually revealed to try to help Wanda see how powerful she was so she could further manipulate her), she stopped. If she had stayed, her presence would have further distressed the citizens, and if she turned herself over to the authorities, they would have finished what Hayward started and tried to kill her (which would result in either Wanda dead or Wanda doing more damage).

Sincere question: what would you like to have seen Wanda have done at the end, and how, being as realistic as possible, do you think the various entities would have responded? If wanda stayed and apologized, as you mentioned in a prior post, what would happen afterward, to her and the people of Westview?

What does Wanda redeemed look like?

Moreover, what does this look like that also creates an inspirational female hero in the MCU, which I think based on past things you have said, you and I agree we need more of? Or is she just not worthy of being that kind of character, in your opinion?

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I would like the Scarlet Witch to get a comeback, a chance to be a hero.

On this, I absolutely agree. :) And I think, or at least hope, we will.

[Vidthulu]

I am personally always right.. except about that last statement. (watches as everyone's mind explodes in paradox muahahahhahaha)

[DeathQuaker]

Vidthulu wrote:

I am personally always right.. except about that last statement. (watches as everyone's mind explodes in paradox muahahahhahaha)

If I agree with you on both, do we get to collapse reality? Pretty please?

[Vidthulu]

That means we have to wake up the boss first and that is a whole ordeal.

[Least Spawn of Yog-Sothoth]

Yeah, that's seriously not worth the effort.

[Thomas Seitz]

If you guys do collapse reality, I call shotgun.

[Marc Radle]

So ... I guess we’re done talking about WandaVision then ... ?

[Vidmaster7]

I mean if you got something to talk about throw it out their big boy.

[Marc Radle]

Vidmaster7 wrote:

I mean if you got something to talk about throw it out their big boy.

Big boy??

[Vidmaster7]

You look like a large cat!

[Thomas Seitz]

I'm assuming Vid mean there not their... But regardless, I'd say we done with Wandavision. For now.

[Quark Blast]

Whoops! More to say:

Was reading something late yesterday and it seems for budget reasons that 10 episodes became 9 and in the process some plot things got dropped.

Darkhold wrote:

The Scarlet Witch is destined to destroy the world.

Ultron to Wanda wrote:

But you will tear them apart from the inside out.

'Destroy the world and tear the good guys apart from the inside'? Hmmm.... not really sounding good there. I mean, if that's not evil it makes the tragedy seen so far feel like a traipse across a bonnie heath in summer.

[Selene Spires]

Quark Blast wrote:

Whoops! More to say:

Was reading something late yesterday and it seems for budget reasons that 10 episodes became 9 and in the process some plot things got dropped.

Darkhold wrote:

The Scarlet Witch is destined to destroy the world.

Ultron to Wanda wrote:

But you will tear them apart from the inside out.

'Destroy the world and tear the good guys apart from the inside'? Hmmm.... not really sounding good there. I mean, if that's not evil it makes the tragedy seen so far feel like a traipse across a bonnie heath in summer.

Um yes because a book evil will tell nothing but the truth.

Also anything in that can predict the future in the MCU has been limited to only seeing possible outcomes. Nothing is written in stone.

[dirtypool]

Selene Spires wrote:

Quark Blast wrote:

Whoops! More to say:

Was reading something late yesterday and it seems for budget reasons that 10 episodes became 9 and in the process some plot things got dropped.

Darkhold wrote:

The Scarlet Witch is destined to destroy the world.

Ultron to Wanda wrote:

But you will tear them apart from the inside out.

'Destroy the world and tear the good guys apart from the inside'? Hmmm.... not really sounding good there. I mean, if that's not evil it makes the tragedy seen so far feel like a traipse across a bonnie heath in summer.

Um yes because a book evil will tell nothing but the truth.

Also anything in that can predict the future in the MCU has been limited to only seeing possible outcomes. Nothing is written in stone.

Also, the "tear them apart from the inside out" isn't some bold prognostication, it was Ultron's instructions for her to use her powers to try to mind whammy the Avengers into turning on each other in that film. Which she did, and it nearly worked.

[Quark Blast]

dirtypool wrote:

Selene Spires wrote:

Quark Blast wrote:

Whoops! More to say:

Was reading something late yesterday and it seems for budget reasons that 10 episodes became 9 and in the process some plot things got dropped.

Darkhold wrote:

The Scarlet Witch is destined to destroy the world.

Ultron to Wanda wrote:

But you will tear them apart from the inside out.

'Destroy the world and tear the good guys apart from the inside'? Hmmm.... not really sounding good there. I mean, if that's not evil it makes the tragedy seen so far feel like a traipse across a bonnie heath in summer.

Um yes because a book evil will tell nothing but the truth.

Also anything in that can predict the future in the MCU has been limited to only seeing possible outcomes. Nothing is written in stone.

Also, the "tear them apart from the inside out" isn't some bold prognostication, it was Ultron's instructions for her to use her powers to try to mind whammy the Avengers into turning on each other in that film. Which she did, and it nearly worked.

Right, because as we learned in WandVision "mind whammy" is her thing and it's also good*. Therefore, the more people she whammies, the more good she is bringing to the multiverse.

* Whatever "good" means because it sure seems to have taken on a startlingly broad range of meaning.

[Thomas Seitz]

If I've learned anything about prophecies it's a) they are open to interpretation and b) they can be flat out wrong.

[dirtypool]

Quark Blast wrote:

dirtypool wrote:

Selene Spires wrote:

Quark Blast wrote:

Whoops! More to say:

Was reading something late yesterday and it seems for budget reasons that 10 episodes became 9 and in the process some plot things got dropped.

Darkhold wrote:

The Scarlet Witch is destined to destroy the world.

Ultron to Wanda wrote:

But you will tear them apart from the inside out.

'Destroy the world and tear the good guys apart from the inside'? Hmmm.... not really sounding good there. I mean, if that's not evil it makes the tragedy seen so far feel like a traipse across a bonnie heath in summer.

Um yes because a book evil will tell nothing but the truth.

Also anything in that can predict the future in the MCU has been limited to only seeing possible outcomes. Nothing is written in stone.

Also, the "tear them apart from the inside out" isn't some bold prognostication, it was Ultron's instructions for her to use her powers to try to mind whammy the Avengers into turning on each other in that film. Which she did, and it nearly worked.

Right, because as we learned in WandVision "mind whammy" is her thing and it's also good*. Therefore, the more people she whammies, the more good she is bringing to the multiverse.

* Whatever "good" means because it sure seems to have taken on a startlingly broad range of meaning.

So her standalone story about grief retroactively turns things said to her in her initial appearance by the sentient evil robot she was working for into some sort of prophecy about her overall fate.

Sure....

With hot takes like those... god I might need to grab a scarf.

[Quark Blast]

Thomas Seitz wrote:

If I've learned anything about prophecies it's a) they are open to interpretation and b) they can be flat out wrong.

A point with more force if we knew who the BBEG is for Dr. Strange MoM and it isn't Scarlet Witch. She nearly took out Thanos as Wanda... who's left to oppose her if she's going to be the protagonist?

[Selene Spires]

Quark Blast wrote:

Thomas Seitz wrote:

If I've learned anything about prophecies it's a) they are open to interpretation and b) they can be flat out wrong.

A point with more force if we knew who the BBEG is for Dr. Strange MoM and it isn't Scarlet Witch. She nearly took out Thanos as Wanda... who's left to oppose her if she's going to be the protagonist?

Herself. I think Wanda's biggest foe has always been herself in some ways. The MCU has always been about the heroes internal struggles.

Also...there are a lot of mystical threats in Marvel that can challenge Wanda on a power level.

[Mark Hoover 330]

I agree SS, and Thor is a good example. Thor is mighty enough in the first of his movies to literally snap the Bifrost. He is a god with godlike power. However, when Hela is holding him down, waiting to strike the death blow he goes to a vision of kneeling in the grass, in front of his father. "I'm not... I'm not as strong as you." Thor bemoans. Odin returns "No... You're STRONGER."

That "strength" isn't his ability to unleash a devastating thunderbolt or punch Hela back to the underworld. No, Thor's strength is in his willingness to renounce all that he knew that made him "worthy" - Asgard and, later, the very throne he'd been questing for in three of his own movies, at the end of Endgame.

The point is that Marvel and the MCU like to take characters with near-godlike power and show how, underneath all of that, they're just as human as the rest of us. They don't always make the wisest decisions.

I hope Wanda eventually falls into that mold getting her redemption arc. I don't think Wanda will renounce the power of the Scarlet Witch as Peter Quill did with Ego, but it could instead be that she learns to harness it, temper it with her own will a la Professor Hulk from Endgame.

Time will tell.

[Selene Spires]

Another good example is Tony Stark's internal struggles...

I think Mavel's 'Villain Problem' was more on purpose so the focus would be the hero's internal struggles.

[Thomas Seitz]

Honestly I think stronger isn't better. I mean look at Loki. He's not strong but he's definitely more devious.

[Quark Blast]

Selene Spires wrote:

Quark Blast wrote:

Thomas Seitz wrote:

If I've learned anything about prophecies it's a) they are open to interpretation and b) they can be flat out wrong.

A point with more force if we knew who the BBEG is for Dr. Strange MoM and it isn't Scarlet Witch. She nearly took out Thanos as Wanda... who's left to oppose her if she's going to be the protagonist?

Herself. I think Wanda's biggest foe has always been herself in some ways. The MCU has always been about the heroes internal struggles.

Also...there are a lot of mystical threats in Marvel that can challenge Wanda on a power level.

Tony is definitely a better example as he's always been setting up his own difficulties, until he came around for that last effort, which really cost him.

Wanda has been the recipient of a ton of unfortunate outcomes. She's also a lot selfish. Combine that with the confusion of grief and BANG! you have a mess.

Musings aside, what the next MCU movie will turn out for sure is a "third act" blowout ka-boom-fest and it could be that Scarlet Witch fights a version of herself from elsewhere in the multiverse of madness. So maybe we'll both be right. But since the movie is titled for Dr. Strange, I'm going to hazard a guess that he'll be the protagonist fighting someone and that someone could very well be a derailed Wanda as the Scarlet Witch (of Chaos).

[Ed Reppert]

How is that better?

[Quark Blast]

I'll assume you mean Tony. When we first meet him he was a billionaire genius playboy tech-weapons inventor and arms seller that's generally full of himself. Lots of things happen, most notably the Battle for NY and Pepper's ethical influence, and he considers an emotional world wider than himself. During this process he stops trying to avoid his 'demons' and more or less becomes a decent human being who is able to out-think Thanos only at the cost of his own life.

That's^ a crap summary but the point is Tony is active in both his failures and redemption(s). Wanda seems a passive agent of chaos (either personified or mundane) in her life and is not moved to undo or ameliorate the problems she's been a part of except for her own apparently selfish desires to escape from the consequences thereof.

Wanda is a less complicated Dark Phoenix (sorta).

[JoelF847]

It was announced today that there's an Agatha spin off show in the works for Disney+. No word on when it will be set, plot, etc. But this is a good thing!

[Thomas Seitz]

I agree! Kathryn Hahn is a treasure and she deserves more time as Agatha.

[JoelF847]

It was Agatha All Along.