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Not that it matters much, but etymologically speaking there's no connection between a hex (a spell or curse) and a hex (a hexagonal two - or three in this case - dimensional object).
Oh neat! That's cool. (For those wondering, Ed's comment made me look it up. Hexa from the Greek for six and Hexen from the German for witchcraft.)
Interestingly though, historically, hexagons and iterations of the number 6 are often used in spells/incantations/numerologically-based arcane formulas as well as in religious iconography as being powerful. So despite the difference, it is still an apt usage for depicting magic on screen.
One could say that someone's noodle might be baked.By what? The order in which things happened on screen?
I think that was an off topic comment. :)
The real brain teaser in one question:
Why didn't Agatha cast her anti-magic runes initially upon walls of the Hex like Wanda did at the end?
Preventing Wanda from casting any magic would make it really hard to remain incognito long enough to study the magic that Wanda is now no longer casting.
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Okay fine.
Preamble:
All those hundreds of years of study, practice, and powering up and Agatha's choice is to make a special place in a basement to lure Wanda in and confront her. Only to let her out for the real confrontation.
The real brain teaser in one question:
Why didn't Agatha cast her anti-magic runes initially upon walls of the Hex like Wanda did at the end?
My assumption is that Agatha was not powerful enough to that, even if she has wanted to.
One of the points of the sequence was show just how powerful Wanda had become
Agreed. Wanda was much stronger than Agatha simply by virtue of scribing runes on the FREAKING walls/barriers separating realities. Whereas Agatha just carved them on the walls.
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Okay fine.
Preamble:
All those hundreds of years of study, practice, and powering up and Agatha's choice is to make a special place in a basement to lure Wanda in and confront her. Only to let her out for the real confrontation.
The real brain teaser in one question:
Why didn't Agatha cast her anti-magic runes initially upon walls of the Hex like Wanda did at the end?
Because Agatha wanted to steal Wanda's magic and cant fo that if Wanda cant cast spells.
I don't know I kind of feel like Wanda was the vision and Agatha wanted to help and some self interest thrown in their as well of course. absoultly for sure neither of them were the good guy tho. good guys were Monica, Woo, and Darcy.
Wanda has been broken since the late 80's, early 90's. At least the show is consistent with the comics here. Similar to the comics I'm hoping the Vision is done with her. She is a toxic person who inherited the worse aspects of Magneto - power, rage, impulsiveness - without the dampening effects of his cunning, patience and genius.
The early comics had her more cheerful and happy-go-lucky, but the evolution of the Avengers and X-Men storylines gave her a bit of a raw deal as a character.
oh typo above to late to edit. Replace wana was the vision with wanda was the villain.
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Because Agatha wanted to steal Wanda's magic and cant fo that if Wanda cant cast spells.Okay fine.
Preamble:
All those hundreds of years of study, practice, and powering up and Agatha's choice is to make a special place in a basement to lure Wanda in and confront her. Only to let her out for the real confrontation.
The real brain teaser in one question:
Why didn't Agatha cast her anti-magic runes initially upon walls of the Hex like Wanda did at the end?
Sure, for the Boss Battle at the end, but Agatha is supposed to be some sort of Uber Witch* with all this knowledge and experience. Her plan sucked, though it was perfect for setting up the 'third act' throw-down. However, there isn't even a pretense of a system of magic.
The only thing I learned about Wanda via WandaVision is that she's the most interesting BBEG that the MCU has yet come up with.
* Scarlet Witch is a demigod, not really a witch of any sort.
I dont get your response here...you asked a question (looking for a plot hole). I gave the reason why it is not a plot hole. Heck it is not even remotely a plot hole...as it is the Plot.
It is like you are seeking affirmation for your dislike of the show.
System of magic...snicker snicker. It's like the Quarter Back has never read comic books before. System of magic, that's a good one. I'll be giggling over that for days.
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Like I said above:
Agatha - - is seriously impressed by the Hex (amazed at the auto-pilot mass domination "spell", etc. etc. etc. and it all being cast at once) and then she didn't think to set a backup plan for Wanda outsmarting/outmagicing her.So much for hundreds of years of studying the thousands of years of recorded magic books/scrolls/whatever arcana.
Meh. Seems kinda plot holey to me.
<SHRUG>
Hubris the downfall of many a comic book villain.
"I don't need a backup plan. I've been at this since Salem. No way the little baby witchling will escape. She's power with no controllable finesse. I got this. I'm Agatha."
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System of magic...snicker snicker. It's like the Quarter Back has never read comic books before. System of magic, that's a good one. I'll be giggling over that for days.Happy to make someone mirthful on these forums for a change!
:DI was swayed by all the dialog from Agatha to Wanda about needing to study magic.... spell books.... and incantations.... rules.... tedium.... taking centuries.... that kind of stuff. So I figured there must be a system.
Whoops!
.
I dont get your response here...you asked a question (looking for a plot hole). I gave the reason why it is not a plot hole. Heck it is not even remotely a plot hole...as it is the Plot.
It is like you are seeking affirmation for your dislike of the show.
Like I said above:
Agatha - - is seriously impressed by the Hex (amazed at the auto-pilot mass domination "spell", etc. etc. etc. and it all being cast at once) and then she didn't think to set a backup plan for Wanda outsmarting/outmagicing her.So much for hundreds of years of studying the thousands of years of recorded magic books/scrolls/whatever arcana.
Meh. Seems kinda plot holey to me.
<SHRUG>
I think you are confusing plot hole with character flaw ...
Plot hole, bad ... character flaw, good writing
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@ Quark Blast: If she set up the runes beforehand than Wanda wouldn't be able to cast spells. It is not like you flip a switch and runes turn on,
Hey it is okay if you don't like the show.
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Meh. Seems kinda plot holey to me.
<SHRUG>
Plot holey? like when using logic in regards to a show where one can use 'magic' to rewrite reality? but what else are we gonna watch, right? we MUST watch Marvel!!! right? like the citizens trapped inside Westview we MUST focus on this show at all cost! :P
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I mean it's not like Batwoman is giving me much to cheer for...
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As for turning runes on/off, Vision and Agatha did that with Wanda's mind-#### of the townsfolk.
There weren’t any runes involved in those scenes. Wanda didn’t use runes to cast the mind whammy on the town folks and neither Agatha nor Vision used runes to break the trances.
Agatha seemed to have done that with her runes in the basement as there was a moment of Wanda getting all glowy-eyed and then a fizzle with the finger-jam/gang-signs thaumaturgy.
In Agatha’s warded warded basement it appeared that Wanda still had powers and then when she tried to cast a spell it didn’t work. In the fight in the air if appeared Agatha still had her powers and then when she tried to cast a spell it didn’t work. Because the rune prevents the one who did not ward the space from casting - it doesn’t strip them of their powers. Nor is it somehow evidence that runes could be turned off and on at will.
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I was swayed by all the dialog from Agatha to Wanda about needing to study magic.... spell books.... and incantations.... rules.... tedium.... taking centuries.... that kind of stuff. So I figured there must be a system.
And in that dialogue she straight up says that normally witches have to minutely prepare and cast each little spell individually, but that what's happening here in Westview requires *thousands* of spells, all working in synch, which was something Agatha thought more or less impossible, so she was studying it only to discover that Wanda was at the root of it, and was doing it all utterly unconsciously, and hence, 'the Scarlet Witch,' a mythical magical force capable of such unconscious primal magic, beyond that of rote spellcasters like herself.
It was kind of a big deal.
Sort of a world of Wizards meet their first Sorcerer moment, in d20 terms. "What? We study for decades until our eyes bleed and lug this 30 lb. spellbook around, and you just started crapping out magic as a child, and it 'just comes to you,' you can't even *read?* No fair!"
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And yet once Wanda learns some of the rules of magic, she learns quickly and can immediately apply it to amplify her existing raw power. Agatha has massive levels of power because of all the magic she has drained from others plus 300+ years of experience. But this has given her hubris; she wasn't counting on Wanda being smart enough to pick up on the runes to use them; meanwhile I'm sure when Cap and Black Widow trained her as an Avenger, one of the first things she learned was "pay attention to when the villain is monologuing and use it against them."
Magic seems to be something that requires a raw talent to be able to use at all well, but using spells/rites/incantations helps hone, refine, and amplify that power (and ensures you do things like, say, not accidentally enslave an entire town).
I don't know I kind of feel like Wanda was the vision and Agatha wanted to help and some self interest thrown in their as well of course. absoultly for sure neither of them were the good guy tho. good guys were Monica, Woo, and Darcy.
Wanda was the primary protagonist, a hero challenged by insane levels of grief. Her primary antagonist was herself--her inability to control her grief and her unwillingness to control her power. She overcame the antagonist once she fully recognized the consequences of her grief-explosion (acknowledging she was hurting the people of Westview and ending the Hex as soon as she could, losing her children and husband--bodies were constructs but I think they are implying they were "real" in terms of independent minds and souls; remember that she was unable to control her children's actions and Vision constantly questioned her) and then accepted rather than rejected the mantle of Scarlet Witch and sought to learn magic away from where she could hurt others. The chief plot arc, using Vonnegut's model, is "man falls into hole." She falls into the hole of grief and denial, she pulls herself out of the hole (with the aid of other characters, both friendly and unfriendly).
Agatha may be more classically a "villain" in terms of the evil witch who wants to get the pretty girl and her little dog too, and she is kind of a secondary antagonist narratively, someone who creates conflicts/obstacles for the hero to overcome. But her primary role is to be in many senses a foil: someone who contrasts from the protagonist to highlight the differences. While Wanda accidentally uses her magic and it hurts people (both with the Westview possession as well as, for example, in Lagos), she feels remorse and tries to fix it. Agatha when she is young accidentally begins to drain the power of her coven but then revels in it and uses the "accident" to destroy her coven without remorse. Agatha says she takes power from the "undeserving" which says she believes she is worthy of her powers; Wanda's dangerous insecurity shown throughout Civil War, Infinity War, and in Wandavision is that she didn't actually think she was deserving which is part of why she was so dangerous with her power; refusing to accept her power made her go out of control easily. Agatha's presence does help Wanda in that she teaches Wanda about her role in the supernatural universe and some spell basics, but Agatha's role is a primarily a contrast and minorly a hindrance.
And notably, she is evil (set aside expectations of her Chaotic Neutral/grey role in the comics). She came to the Hex to learn its secrets and steal Wanda's power. She was not there "to help." She shows at the end that she could have freed the minds of the townsfolk at any time; she could have done that as soon as she arrived and they wouldn't have endured torture for a week. She could have confronted Wanda from the beginning and said, "Hi, I am a witch and I just noticed you cast this massive spell to create a sitcom universe, please tell me more." She instead watched to see what was happening, and manipulated events to trigger conflicts to ensure Wanda slowly lost control (risking the lives of the people under her spell). She strangles the children, ready to sacrifice them to get what she wants. She said "I'll take your power and leave you to your fantasy" but clearly she was lying based on immediately subsequent actions. When revisiting her chief moment of shame, she shows zero remorse and then uses the situation to try to get what she wants. She nearly kills the SWORD agents (Wanda saves their lives). And she killed Sparky, too!
Hayward is the other secondary antagonist, though for most of the show was more for the secondary protagonists of Jimmy, Woo, and Monica, whose journey was to solve the mystery of the Hex (and Monica had a mirror journey to Wanda's about dealing with her grief, which unfortunately much of which seemed to end up on the cutting room floor). He was also an antagonist for Wanda too, both provoking her when she came to recover Vision's body and then escalating problems during the climax, but he's really more of a plot device than a villain proper. (And IMO the absolutely MOST disappointing thing about this series. Both he and the role SWORD played was some of the most pathetic, cookie cutter stuff I've seen in the MCU, just rehashes of old SHIELD plots and a bland, generic evil white man in authority villain who has no personality or goals whatsoever other than "I want to have my own robot toy." They tried for about half a millisecond to give him any humanity by giving him a line about how much he suffered and worked hard during the Five Long Years. But then went back to him being utterly two dimensional boring "guy with authority who shouldn't have it." He's sort of a like, "well we can't get Thunderbolt Ross for this show, so let's put in this nondescript cardboard cutout and hope nobody notices he's not really a real boy." I can only hope that his development was one of the things that was unfortunately cut because the pandemic rushed/canceled a lot of intended filming sequences and storylines (note in many of the final scenes everyone is standing really far away from each other). This show had a lot of really great character development and dialogue and it's bizarre to me how scribbled-in-crayon SWORD and Hayward were by comparison, and it's a shame.
But primary antagonist Wanda. Fortunately the primary protagonist, Wanda, won.
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Agatha may be more classically a "villain" in terms of the evil witch who wants to get the pretty girl and her little dog too
Didn't just want to. She got that little dog.
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Just to add to Deathquaker's point about Agatha. Agatha also manipulated events to isolate Wanda. She needed Vision gone so Wanda would not have any support or someone to call her on what she was doing is wrong.
Agatha was pretty much gaslighting Wanda from the get go.
Yep. I'm with Selene, Agatha was gaslighting her from the get go.
So the conclusions are:
1) Agatha is evil
2) Wanda is easily led into hasty actions that result in evil she never apologizes for or works to ameliorate.... so, also evil
3) Magic (not just really, really, really high tech) is a thing in the MCU but it defies a coherent explanation either by dint of creation or writers fiat
4) Dogs are mortal
5) Batwoman =
awesomefail
1) She did have an evil theme song.
2.) She apologized to the people she mind whammied.
3.) Since 2016, glad you’ve caught up.
4.) Fair catch
Sadly yes, Dogs are mortal and 5 is also accurate.
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I just realized that Agatha, with her 'taking power from the unworthy' is basically Wanda's version of Mordo, from Dr. Strange.
The two have different base philosophies, but the same methods, stealing magic from others they deem 'unworthy' and hoarding it for themselves.
I just realized that Agatha, with her 'taking power from the unworthy' is basically Wanda's version of Mordo, from Dr. Strange.
The two have different base philosophies, but the same methods, stealing magic from others they deem 'unworthy' and hoarding it for themselves.
I notice the same thing.
Though I am not sure Mordo is hoarding the magic for himself. Though it has been a while since I last saw Doctor Strange.
So the conclusions are:
1) Agatha is evil
2) Wanda is easily led into hasty actions that result in evil she never apologizes for or works to ameliorate.... so, also evil
3) Magic (not just really, really, really high tech) is a thing in the MCU but it defies a coherent explanation either by dint of creation or writers fiat
4) Dogs are mortal
5) Batwoman =
awesomefail
1) Yes
2) No...no this is all wrong.
3) So does the 'science' of the MCU...everything in fiction works off writers fiat.
4) Yes, though I did not need a TV show to reach this conclusion.
5) I don't like 90% of the stuff put out by DC so I will with hold my opinion.
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And remember, if you can't otherwise explain it, it's Pym Particles.
DQ,
Well it's either that, quantum or time travel...
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Technically you CAN explain anything with quantum physics if you try hard enough
If that were true we would have a unified field theory.
So far we have un-unified theories...
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Thanks, ericthecleric, I just watched that yesterday. I highly recommend it. You get some interesting insights into the series and characters as well as see all the fun behind the scenes stuff with the period pieces and the SFX.
So the conclusions are:
s n i p
3) Magic (not just really, really, really high tech) is a thing in the MCU but it defies a coherent explanation either by dint of creation or writers fiat
/ s n i ps n i p
3) So does the 'science' of the MCU...everything in fiction works off writers fiat.
/ s n i pYes, but the writers don't have expository dialog between characters where one character tells the other she's losing because she's never studied the rules of science. But Agatha does brow-beat Wanda over her unstudied approach to magic.
Thus my very reasonable expectation of in-universe rules for magic!
:p
And that brow-beating went so far towards Agatha defeating Wanda. I mean I loved that ending where knowing the rules allowed Agatha to win. I love how Agatha trounced Wanda into the stone-age cause she knew the rules.
Oh wait. I guess knowing rules doesn't matter.
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I mean I know the rules as GM/DM. That doesn't mean I get a TPK all the time...
I enjoyed the fact there was a live studio audience for episode 1.