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This really just comes down to a simple question — Do you want crossbows to be even remotely effective in your campaign?
I want crossbows run consistently across games so I'd like to discourage houseruling things as much as possible. That and your 'fix' discourages people from using normal crossbows, slings, slingstaves, ect as the heavy crossbow has superior damage and range leaving any other option inferior when you make them all 1 action reload unless you're counting every L of bulk.
Hmm, animated heavy crossbow, you command it to load (1 action) and it does (2 minion actions). So we just need a crossbow familiar option.
It's already an option: be a witch with baba yaga as your patron and make your heavy crossbow your familiar: then command it to reload itself.
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Hmm, animated heavy crossbow, you command it to load (1 action) and it does (2 minion actions). So we just need a crossbow familiar option.It's already an option: be a witch with baba yaga as your patron and make your heavy crossbow your familiar: then command it to reload itself.
That occurred to me, but the patron rules for Baba Yaga are not sufficiently specific to assume that doing so would be commonly allowed.
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That occurred to me, but the patron rules for Baba Yaga are not sufficiently specific to assume that doing so would be commonly allowed.Hmm, animated heavy crossbow, you command it to load (1 action) and it does (2 minion actions). So we just need a crossbow familiar option.It's already an option: be a witch with baba yaga as your patron and make your heavy crossbow your familiar: then command it to reload itself.
As a Rare option, I'm not sure it's super high on the priority list of things to address but it does have a few things that are a bit ambiguous such as:
Are these Familiars considered Objects or Creatures for the purpose of effects that care?
Do these Familiars have Hardness?
Can these Familiars be made to be Animated in their own right without Familiar Abilities?
That occurred to me, but the patron rules for Baba Yaga are not sufficiently specific to assume that doing so would be commonly allowed.Hmm, animated heavy crossbow, you command it to load (1 action) and it does (2 minion actions). So we just need a crossbow familiar option.It's already an option: be a witch with baba yaga as your patron and make your heavy crossbow your familiar: then command it to reload itself.
Well, nothing in "we just need a crossbow familiar option" said anything about common rarity. ;)
Are these Familiars considered Objects or Creatures for the purpose of effects that care?
They are called "an inanimate object" and "The object familiar" so I'd say object: I'd use the Intelligent Items rules though.
Do these Familiars have Hardness?
Intelligent items keep their normal stats, so yep.
Can these Familiars be made to be Animated in their own right without Familiar Abilities?
If you mean Animate Object, I don't think so: you'd be trying to remake a minion out of a minion so IMO, you'd be rewriting familiar with animate.
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I came back to this thread expecting one or two comments but we got OVER 50 lololol.
I appreciate all the discussion. Good stuff all around.
I'm PERSONALLY considering pushing for a houserule to just let Zohls favored weapon allow for regular crossbows too since with the deific weapon ability it'll make it as strong as a heavy for normal people.
My original idea for the pc was like an inquisitor type with the badass crossbow skills but reality quickly got in the way.
Repeating crossbows when?
Been there, done that, GM'ed the AP.
(Reign of Winter)
Back in my day it was Dancing Hut of Baba Yaga.
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your 'fix' discourages people from using normal crossbows...
Only with respect to a very specific build, that being the Crossbow Ace with the Running Reload feat. They are resource invested in that activity so it stands to reason they should be the best with the components. The rest still have the same reload 2 problem.
Only with respect to a very specific build, that being the Crossbow Ace with the Running Reload feat.
Crossbow Ace doesn't really factor it: it's a superior options JUST with running reload. And it's not TOO specific as any class can take running reload with the Archer archetype. If your main weapon is going to be a crossbow, it doesn't seem out of place to pick up archer.
If it is the intent that familiars riding on you can reload a heavy crossbow for two of their actions when commanded, I sort of hope that they release some other character option that competes with or obsoletes it mechanically. "There's a gopher or whatever that clings to my weapon or forearm and uses its tiny hands to reload my crossbow every time I shoot it" is a pretty specific character concept. That's not to say that somebody can't have fun with a heavy crossbow wielding character that works this way, but it shouldn't be the case that the clear lowest-friction way to execute a concept like "Heavy Crossbow user" is to balance an unusually dexterous toad to your wrist.
I'm in no way adverse to offbeat character concepts, I'd just rather the game not be designed such that every character pursuing a particular fighting style is mechanically pushed toward the exact same offbeat character concept. (I had the same beef with the things that went into TWF with guns in 1e.)
So even with my poor Divination proficiency, I can predict with some certainty that we won't be seeing exotic, minion-reloading heavy crossbow builds cropping up all over the place.
Exactly, and why would they when they can't compare to HCAS, the Hand Crossbow Alpha Strike or its variants. #BulkExploits
I rule it that you need to come out of any cover to use a bow, and so would have to take an action to take cover again (I don't know what the rules from firing from cover actually are, though)
With a crossbow you can fire from cover and stay in cover. Seems to work fine, it doesn't make them better than bows, but allows a situational playstyle (sniping from safety).
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Well no, it's more like getting upset with someone using a greatsword who also claims to be using a shield. You can say that the tradeoff is too steep to justify the heavy crossbow (I'd agree on that matter) but the existence of a tradeoff between damage and action economy is very much intentional. I don't think the heavy crossbow just being better than the normal crossbow would be an ideal state of affairs either, they're both simple weapons.
I think the only clear consensus in this thread is that none of the options for reloading a heavy crossbow are actually efficient or net-beneficial to the character, in comparison to more mundane options (e.g., just sucking it up and reloading it yourself, or dropping it and using another weapon after one shot). So even with my poor Divination proficiency, I can predict with some certainty that we won't be seeing exotic, minion-reloading heavy crossbow builds cropping up all over the place.If it is the intent that familiars riding on you can reload a heavy crossbow for two of their actions when commanded, I sort of hope that they release some other character option that competes with or obsoletes it mechanically. "There's a gopher or whatever that clings to my weapon or forearm and uses its tiny hands to reload my crossbow every time I shoot it" is a pretty specific character concept. That's not to say that somebody can't have fun with a heavy crossbow wielding character that works this way, but it shouldn't be the case that the clear lowest-friction way to execute a concept like "Heavy Crossbow user" is to balance an unusually dexterous toad to your wrist.
I'm in no way adverse to offbeat character concepts, I'd just rather the game not be designed such that every character pursuing a particular fighting style is mechanically pushed toward the exact same offbeat character concept. (I had the same beef with the things that went into TWF with guns in 1e.)
Options that currently contend with Minion Reloading as a ruling directly, that are just as viable or better;
Independent, Lab Assistant, Partner in Crime, Poison Reservoir, Skilled, Spellcasting, Toolbearer, Valet;
(Master Abilities)
Cantrip Connection, Extra Reagents, Familiar Focus, Innate Surge, Spell Battery;
(Familiar Master)
Familiar Conduit
Having play experience with Minion Reloading, i still have no clue how anyone can think it's a cheese tactic unless they assume the option in bad faith.
Lets assume 1 interact -> 1 action. A player would need Manuel Dexterity and Valet for a normal Crossbow, and this would equal out to 2 attacks and a loaded Crossbow. Even if hasted that equals out to at most 3 attacks. With a Heavy Crossbow this equals two attacks a turn no matter how you slice it. Even hasted a Heavy Crossbow is currently limited to two attacks a turn period.
A longbow and shortbow can both make 3-4 attacks a turn with haste. In the cases of Ranger and Monastic Archer Monk, they can get up to 5 attacks a turn; but Ranger is going to be the one that can do this most often.
Now let's compare damage:
[Weapon | 1st atk | 2nd atk | 3rd atk | 4th atk | 5th atk]
Crossbow | 4.5 | 7.875 | 10.125
Shortbow | 3.5 | 6.125 | 7.875 | 9.625 | 11.375**
Longbow | 4.5 | 7.875 | 10.125 | 12.375 | 14.625**
C. Shortbow* | 5.5 | 9.625 | 12.375 | 15.125 | 17.875**
C. Longbow* | 6.5 | 11.375 | 14.625 | 17.875 | 21.125**
*Composite Bows are calculated with a 18 str
**Only applicable with Hunted Shot or Flurry of Blows & Monastic Archer Stance
That was calculated without Crossbow Ace and normal Bows tend to lean towards doing better than Crossbows in total damage potential.
But since we're talking about cheese here, let's see how much we can get out with Crossbow Ace:
Crossbow | 7.5 | 13.125 | 16.875
Shortbow | 3.5 | 6.125 | 7.875 | 9.625 | 11.375**
Longbow | 4.5 | 7.875 | 10.125 | 12.375 | 14.625**
C. Shortbow* | 5.5 | 9.625 | 12.375 | 15.125 | 17.875**
C. Longbow* | 6.5 | 11.375 | 14.625 | 17.875 | 21.125**
*Composite Bows are calculated with a 18 str
**Only applicable with Hunted Shot or Flurry of Blows & Monastic Archer Stance
The difference in damage isn't all that great. The crossbows have more burst, but the other Bows are going to get more benefit from runes and weaknesses, so they seem to balance out the same as 1-hand and 2-hand melee weapons. The only perceivable benefit is to a regular Crossbow and being Hasted actually gaining a net positive. Heavy Crossbow is just getting, at best, earlier access to what they already can do with haste; otherwise they gain zero net positive and even cap out in potential damage rather quickly.
The other idea, that you are somehow cheating the action economy and is thus an exploit, is just a blatant double standard. Here are 15 feats that cheat the action economy, the same complaint as minion reloading, by consolidating two actions into one; at the low low cost of a single feat.
Combat Grab
Doctor's Visitation
Everstand Strike
Hunted Shot
Monster Hunter
Quick Draw
Quick Mount
Quick Shot
Running Reload
Skim Scroll
Skirmish Strike
Snagging Strike
Startling Appearance
Tumbling Strike
Twin Takedown
Different strokes for different folks when it comes to play preference, but the only consistent critique against it, is Graystone's point about weight limitation; and even then there are no weight limitations to interact actions that i'm aware of. Maybe someone can point to where it suggests a bulk measurement for Interact Actions? Familiars, at least, do have a weight limit we can point to that was mentioned in the APG under the Valet ability where it mentions it can grab and hand the Player any item they are wearing of Light or Negligible Bulk.
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I joke about crossbow cheese, but honestly I've been expecting a feat or magic item or something that lets you reload a heavy crossbow in 1 action. I don't see a problem with someone doing it somehow if they invest.