Customization Options at Level 1 - Numbering 3

[KrispyXIV]

A lot of people want more to do at level 1. I personally think that this should be kept simple, so here's a thought on how to mix it up but keep things relatively simple for creating your eidolon but also add some flexibility.

In this idea, you make three main choices.

Your Eidolon base Type. This works exactly like it currently does. You get everything here except...

Your Attribute Array - you get three choices. Note that Con is ignored as it currently does little, and should probably be the same for each. Mental stats are assumed to be assignable or can be fixed.

The Brute. This one prioritizes Strength (18), Dexterity (16), and has weak mental stats (12, 10, 8)

The Graceful. This one prioritizes Dexterity (18), and Strength (14) to a smaller degree and chooses a superior mental stat (14, 10, 8)

Reduced strength for damage partially mitigates the AC advantage

The Sage. This one has ok Dex (16), Low Strength (10), and good mental stats (16, 14, 8)

Then you choose your attacks -

All In - d10 bludgeoning, piercing or slashing

Flexible - d8 B P or S, d4 agile BPoS

Finesse - d6 finesse BP or S, d4 agile finesse BPoS

Mystic - d6 finesse fire, cold, electricity, acid, negative or positive damage, d4 thrown 20 feet of the same type

*****

Otherwise, the current rules apply.

There would probably be a low level feat that opened up another attack category, or added traits to one you already have.

How big of a step is this for those looking for more options at level 1, while keeping things minimalistic?

This is a lower impact rebuild than something like Verzens recent rebuild, that attempts to keep a similar spirit of choice.

[siegfriedliner]

That looks great to me.

[Verzen]

1) where are the monster abilities?

2) I really think some need a resistance and weakness.

3) I don't mind the choose your sttack option as long as I add either str or cha to dmg with energy attacks.

Whats so bad about allowing a choice of array?

[Verzen]

For stats I mean

[KrispyXIV]

Verzen wrote:

1) where are the monster abilities?

2) I really think some need a resistance and weakness.

3) I don't mind the choose your sttack option as long as I add either str or cha to dmg with energy attacks.

Whats so bad about allowing a choice of array?

1) I dont imagine these will end up anywhere but feats, assuming you mean things like Grab, Constrict, etc. Its clear Mark knows we want them, and that's by far the most likely vehicle. I'm not worried about them, and they are extra complication at level 1.

2) As noted elsewhere, based on what these cost in other areas of the game I highly doubt they'd be in play at level 1 for Eidolons. So not overworried about them.

Elemental Eidolons get representation through the Mystic attack type, which

3) as written get full benefit from Strength and need no new special rules to be effective. I decided it likely wasn't worth overlimiting this beyond restricting things to the more common non-trap damage types (no aligned damage as that's better limited to things like the Angel base type, and not applied to your ENTIRE damage roll as that results in Eidolons which theoretically can't defend themselves).

Limiting array options makes things more friendly for new players. The three presented are likely going to cover most builds thematically anyways, ensures all Eidolons have a predictable minimum AC without having to mess with armor proficiencies (important! Avoids complications), and ensures that all eidolons have a minimum attack bonus floor for similar reasons so long as they don't make a really bizarre attack choice.

[Verzen]

I think they SHOULD show up at level 1. Thats the Summoners niche. Fighters get expert attack at 1.. we don't get monster abilities? That feels bad.

[Verzen]

I also think they should add Eidolons con to HP... If we share HP.

[KrispyXIV]

Verzen wrote:

I think they SHOULD show up at level 1. Thats the Summoners niche. Fighters get expert attack at 1.. we don't get monster abilities? That feels bad.

The "Iconic Thing" for Summoners is almost certainly going to be "having a second body" at your disposal and the associated action advantage, similar to monks having Flurry, rogues having Sneak attack, champion reaction, etc.

That said, I'm hoping you won't have to wait long. After all, Combat Grab is only a 2nd level Fighter feat.

[Verzen]

No. I think the iconic thing should be we have a literal monster ally.

Anyone with an AC has two bodies with separate HP on the field. That can't just be our niche. Especially when we share HP.

[KrispyXIV]

Verzen wrote:

I also think they should add Eidolons con to HP... If we share HP.

Thats really a seperate thread, I think. I'm mostly wanting to source how people feel about this level of customization to start.

For people wanting more options to be mechanically reflected at number one, this list allows for description of the creatures nature or type (through their base type), physical appearance and build (the player can justify their choice how they like, but you have a mechanic distinction for big hitty fighters, faster or harder to hit and graceful eidolons, and one for more skill or support oriented Eidolons. You then get a selection of attack options that let you cover a range of fighting styles, and also the exotic elemental or magical types.

I think that gives you three very significant, relevant, and crunchy choices while keeping things predictable and balance able for progression.

[Verzen]

they'd also get the corresponding monster traits along with that type.

[cavernshark]

Verzen wrote:

I think they SHOULD show up at level 1. Thats the Summoners niche. Fighters get expert attack at 1.. we don't get monster abilities? That feels bad.

Monster abilities are really strong. They don't belong on PCs casually, and definitely not at level 1. Asking for them at level 1 is crazy when many are flat out better than other class feats.

Grab isn't just grapple. It auto hits and lasts until the end of the next round. That means there's no incrementing MAP after the first strike and there's no need to maintain the grapple on the next round, which would also auto push a regular player down 1 attack since Grapple has the attack trait. Compare Grab to Combat Grab, the level 2 fighter feat. It's similar in that it's an auto success, but has the Press trait. So you can't do it unless you already have one attack completed and will have at least a -4/-5 on attack.

Knockdown is similar. The monster version is usually a second action to auto knock someone prone, no athletics roll required, and for no MAP cost. So two actions for a strike + auto prone, 1 MAP. Compared to a level 4 fighter feat Knockdown where the fighter has to spend a level 4 class feat to do something similar, but has to make the secondary athletics check to get trip in and will suffer 2 attacks in MAP.

For monster abilities to be on a PC (or Eidolon) they would have to come online later or get custom versions that were watered down, which will probably lead to confusion and extra page count.

[Wind Chime]

The barbarian gets grab at 12th level, the fighters improved knockdown has a similar action economy to knockdown gets you a little extra damage on the side but requires you to comit to two actions up front but it also almost guarantees you an attack of opportunity.

[cavernshark]

KrispyXIV wrote:

A lot of people want more to do at level 1. I personally think that this should be kept simple, so here's a thought on how to mix it up but keep things relatively simple for creating your eidolon but also add some flexibility.

In this idea, you make three main choices.

Your Eidolon base Type. This works exactly like it currently does. You get everything here except...

Your Attribute Array - you get three choices. Note that Con is ignored as it currently does little, and should probably be the same for each. Mental stats are assumed to be assignable or can be fixed.

The Brute. This one prioritizes Strength (18), Dexterity (16), and has weak mental stats (12, 10, 8)

The Graceful. This one prioritizes Dexterity (18), and Strength (14) to a smaller degree and chooses a superior mental stat (14, 10, 8)

Reduced strength for damage partially mitigates the AC advantage

The Sage. This one has ok Dex (16), Low Strength (10), and good mental stats (16, 14, 8)

Then you choose your attacks -

All In - d10 bludgeoning, piercing or slashing

Flexible - d8 B P or S, d4 agile BPoS

Finesse - d6 finesse BP or S, d4 agile finesse BPoS

Mystic - d6 finesse fire, cold, electricity, acid, negative or positive damage, d4 thrown 20 feet of the same type

*****

Otherwise, the current rules apply.

There would probably be a low level feat that opened up another attack category, or added traits to one you already have.

How big of a step is this for those looking for more options at level 1, while keeping things minimalistic?

This is a lower impact rebuild than something like Verzens recent rebuild, that attempts to keep a similar spirit of choice.

Honestly, I don't think there needs to be a compromise here. Picking an eidolon base is fine. A little more variery on the stat arrays between the forms might be nice (maybe Beast is strong, Fey is Dexterous), but this entire build-a-bear at level 1 idea really flies in the face of ABC character creation, which is a pretty strong selling point for this edition. I showed my wife how to make a character the other day in Pathbuilder and she was floored at how easy it was to get started (having been previously overwhelmed with PF1).

The entire concept above requires a lot of system knowledge a new player probably won't have and opens up a lot of possibility for bad choices. What if I make a Dragon, with the Sage archetype, but I pick Flexible attacks. Or worse, I pick negative damage and suddenly have an eidolon who can't touch the undead. Admittedly a GM will hopefully steer their players away from bad choices, but I play in society and there's definitely going to be new players coming into the game, choosing Summoner as their first class, and then randomly ending up in an undead scenario at level 1.

It's really okay if the base summoner doesn't come with crazy forms. Maybe they can release an "advanced eidolon optional ruleset. I don't think that this forum represents the larger player base and I would be concerned dropping a simpler start for a few vocal people here.

[Dubious Scholar]

I think splitting stat array and type is fair, but I agree that the attacks might be an issue there. Energy damage probably shouldn't come baseline outside of stuff like the angel template has.

[Verzen]

cavernshark wrote:

KrispyXIV wrote:

A lot of people want more to do at level 1. I personally think that this should be kept simple, so here's a thought on how to mix it up but keep things relatively simple for creating your eidolon but also add some flexibility.

In this idea, you make three main choices.

Your Eidolon base Type. This works exactly like it currently does. You get everything here except...

Your Attribute Array - you get three choices. Note that Con is ignored as it currently does little, and should probably be the same for each. Mental stats are assumed to be assignable or can be fixed.

The Brute. This one prioritizes Strength (18), Dexterity (16), and has weak mental stats (12, 10, 8)

The Graceful. This one prioritizes Dexterity (18), and Strength (14) to a smaller degree and chooses a superior mental stat (14, 10, 8)

Reduced strength for damage partially mitigates the AC advantage

The Sage. This one has ok Dex (16), Low Strength (10), and good mental stats (16, 14, 8)

Then you choose your attacks -

All In - d10 bludgeoning, piercing or slashing

Flexible - d8 B P or S, d4 agile BPoS

Finesse - d6 finesse BP or S, d4 agile finesse BPoS

Mystic - d6 finesse fire, cold, electricity, acid, negative or positive damage, d4 thrown 20 feet of the same type

*****

Otherwise, the current rules apply.

There would probably be a low level feat that opened up another attack category, or added traits to one you already have.

How big of a step is this for those looking for more options at level 1, while keeping things minimalistic?

This is a lower impact rebuild than something like Verzens recent rebuild, that attempts to keep a similar spirit of choice.

Honestly, I don't think there needs to be a compromise here. Picking an eidolon base is fine. A little more variery on the stat arrays between the forms might be nice (maybe Beast is strong, Fey is Dexterous), but this entire build-a-bear at level 1 idea really flies in the face...

No. Its really not okay. Having those boring base forms in the playtest will guarantee I do not buy the book unless they come with a blank eidolon that will allow me to create my own.

I shouldnt be more customizable as a summoner than my eidolon is. Thats ridiculous.

[OrochiFuror]

The iconic thing for summoners can not just be have a second body if synthesis exists.
I also don't see why we need so many things at level one. Your ability to manifest your Eidolon gets stronger until you can bring forth it's full potential at level 20. Having more of its abilities come online as you grow via evolution feats feels fine, we just need more of them. More built in abilities then 3 would be nice too. I don't think we'll see a system like familiar building with dozens of options due to it being so complex and that's the sort of thing PF2 is against. Picking a package and having some ability to customize with evolution feats is much more likely. If we can get 2 or 3 evolution feats at first level, then that's more likely to meet the design goal of depth with less complexity.

[Verzen]

We need a bit of base line customization. I for one won't touch summoner at all if I have to pick a boring base kit that I have zero control over.

If my summoner is more customizable than my eidolon it is a huge problem.

[cavernshark]

Verzen wrote:

cavernshark wrote:

KrispyXIV wrote:

A lot of people want more to do at level 1. I personally think that this should be kept simple, so here's a thought on how to mix it up but keep things relatively simple for creating your eidolon but also add some flexibility.

In this idea, you make three main choices.

Your Eidolon base Type. This works exactly like it currently does. You get everything here except...

Your Attribute Array - you get three choices. Note that Con is ignored as it currently does little, and should probably be the same for each. Mental stats are assumed to be assignable or can be fixed.

The Brute. This one prioritizes Strength (18), Dexterity (16), and has weak mental stats (12, 10, 8)

The Graceful. This one prioritizes Dexterity (18), and Strength (14) to a smaller degree and chooses a superior mental stat (14, 10, 8)

Reduced strength for damage partially mitigates the AC advantage

The Sage. This one has ok Dex (16), Low Strength (10), and good mental stats (16, 14, 8)

Then you choose your attacks -

All In - d10 bludgeoning, piercing or slashing

Flexible - d8 B P or S, d4 agile BPoS

Finesse - d6 finesse BP or S, d4 agile finesse BPoS

Mystic - d6 finesse fire, cold, electricity, acid, negative or positive damage, d4 thrown 20 feet of the same type

*****

Otherwise, the current rules apply.

There would probably be a low level feat that opened up another attack category, or added traits to one you already have.

How big of a step is this for those looking for more options at level 1, while keeping things minimalistic?

This is a lower impact rebuild than something like Verzens recent rebuild, that attempts to keep a similar spirit of choice.

Honestly, I don't think there needs to be a compromise here. Picking an eidolon base is fine. A little more variery on the stat arrays between the forms might be nice (maybe Beast is strong, Fey is Dexterous), but this entire build-a-bear at level 1

...

You should be prepared that this might and probably won't look the way you want and Paizo is going to have to design this for more than just you, or I, want.

[Salamileg]

Verzen wrote:

No. Its really not okay. Having those boring base forms in the playtest will guarantee I do not buy the book unless they come with a blank eidolon that will allow me to create my own.

I shouldnt be more customizable as a summoner than my eidolon is. Thats ridiculous.

It's not okay for you, but it's not a universal view. Summoner is already on its way to being one of my favorite classes. I have problems with it, but most of them aren't related to customization of eidolons (the only one that is is that I'd like to change up the ability scores, in case I want a wise or charismatic eidolon).

[Donald]

cavernshark wrote:

but this entire build-a-bear at level 1 idea really flies in the face of ABC character creation...

Not necessarily.

Start with 10s in all stats.

ANCESTRY:
Angel - Boosts Str or dex, Wis, free. Flaw int.
Beast - Boosts Str or dex, Con, free. Flaw int.
Phantom - Boosts Str or dex, Con, free. Flaw cha.
Dragon - Boosts Str or dex, free. No Flaw.

BACKGROUND
Brute - Str + free
Agile - Dex + free
Hardy - Con + fre
Sage - Wis + free
Scholar - Int + free
Fascinating - Cha + free
skills from Ancestry, add option for agile primary attack and str based secondary

CLASS - a little harder to quantify
Combat - Str, Dex, or Con -
Support - Int or Wis
Skilled - Dex or Cha

You can customize the Eidolon like you would a character, making it Str or Dex based in Combat, a dexterous scout, or caster/heal support.

The above would need some serious tweaking of course, I just made it up off the cuff for an example.

[KrispyXIV]

Donald wrote:

cavernshark wrote:

but this entire build-a-bear at level 1 idea really flies in the face of ABC character creation...

Not necessarily.

Start with 10s in all stats.

ANCESTRY:
Angel - Boosts Str or dex, Wis, free. Flaw int.
Beast - Boosts Str or dex, Con, free. Flaw int.
Phantom - Boosts Str or dex, Con, free. Flaw cha.
Dragon - Boosts Str or dex, free. No Flaw.

BACKGROUND
Brute - Str + free
Agile - Dex + free
Hardy - Con + fre
Sage - Wis + free
Scholar - Int + free
Fascinating - Cha + free
skills from Ancestry, add option for agile primary attack and str based secondary

CLASS - a little harder to quantify
Combat - Str, Dex, or Con -
Support - Int or Wis
Skilled - Dex or Cha

You can customize the Eidolon like you would a character, making it Str or Dex based in Combat, a dexterous scout, or caster/heal support.

The above would need some serious tweaking of course, I just made it up off the cuff for an example.

At this point you're building two characters. Thats probably beyond the simplicity they want here.

[Donald]

KrispyXIV wrote:

At this point you're building two characters. Thats probably beyond the simplicity they want here.

But not beyond what a lot of players are asking for.

[cavernshark]

Donald wrote:

KrispyXIV wrote:

At this point you're building two characters. Thats probably beyond the simplicity they want here.

But not beyond what a lot of players are asking for.

I cannot emphasize enough how few people are actually 'asking' for anything on these forums. The voices here are a fraction of those who will fill out the survey and those are a fraction of those that will ultimately play this class.

Total reworks of the system are way less useful than actual play feedback. I work in the games industry. Trust me when I say a narrative description of how your summoner handled or didn't handle situations and how it made you feel while playing it will be far more useful than the random tiny mechanical piece you might stumble on in a total system rework like this. Cool ideas are always useful (e.g. X made my feel bad, it might have been cool if I could do Y), but going beyond that can be really disruptive.

[KrispyXIV]

cavernshark wrote:

Donald wrote:

KrispyXIV wrote:

At this point you're building two characters. Thats probably beyond the simplicity they want here.

But not beyond what a lot of players are asking for.

I cannot emphasize enough how few people are actually 'asking' for anything on these forums. The voices here are a fraction of those who will fill out the survey and those are a fraction of those that will ultimately play this class.

Total reworks of the system are way less useful than actual play feedback. I work in the games industry. Trust me when I say a narrative description of how your summoner handled or didn't handle situations and how it made you feel while playing it will be far more useful than the random tiny mechanical piece you might stumble on in a total system rework like this. Cool ideas are always useful (e.g. X made my feel bad, it might have been cool if I could do Y), but going beyond that can be really disruptive.

That, plus the fact that its been stated that a core goal of the class design is to make it new player friendly.

That goal is unlikely to change because of what established players want.

Better to help try and find a solution that is both fun, and as easy as possible to implement.

[TheGentlemanDM]

KrispyXIV wrote:

A lot of people want more to do at level 1. I personally think that this should be kept simple, so here's a thought on how to mix it up but keep things relatively simple for creating your eidolon but also add some flexibility.

In this idea, you make three main choices.

Your Eidolon base Type. This works exactly like it currently does. You get everything here except...

Your Attribute Array - you get three choices. Note that Con is ignored as it currently does little, and should probably be the same for each. Mental stats are assumed to be assignable or can be fixed.

The Brute. This one prioritizes Strength (18), Dexterity (16), and has weak mental stats (12, 10, 8)

The Graceful. This one prioritizes Dexterity (18), and Strength (14) to a smaller degree and chooses a superior mental stat (14, 10, 8)

Reduced strength for damage partially mitigates the AC advantage

The Sage. This one has ok Dex (16), Low Strength (10), and good mental stats (16, 14, 8)

Then you choose your attacks -

All In - d10 bludgeoning, piercing or slashing

Flexible - d8 B P or S, d4 agile BPoS

Finesse - d6 finesse BP or S, d4 agile finesse BPoS

Mystic - d6 finesse fire, cold, electricity, acid, negative or positive damage, d4 thrown 20 feet of the same type

The divide between physical and mental boosts is a very nice improvement on my loadouts idea (seriously, kudos), but splitting attacks from loadouts makes balance trickier and also makes things harder for new players. I'd expand to four choices, and tie attacks to each option. For example, it's weird that the 18 STR brute could choose the d6 finesse attacks, even if no sane player would:

The Adept: 18 STR, 16 DEX, 12 CON. [14, 10, 8] mental stats. d8 & d6 agile attack. The 'balanced' option. Offers a nice balance between offensive power and skill investment. (This is my array of choice for most of my character ideas)

The Brute: 18 STR, 16 DEX, 16 CON. [10, 10, 8] mental stats. d10 attack. Hits harder than anything else. Really good if there's any decent rewards for investing in CON. Ideal for monstrous build ideas.

The Graceful: 14 STR, 18 DEX, 12 CON. [14, 10, 10] mental stats. d6 finesse and d4 agile finesse attack. The defensive option. Low damage, high AC. Good for those who want a more agile, roguelike eidolon.

The Mystic: 12 STR, 18 DEX, 12 CON. [10, 12, 14] mental stats. d6 ranged and d4 finesse attack. Least damage, but good AC, can fight at range, and has the best mental stats for those who want "caster" or "sage" eidolons.

Personally, I think elemental damage is better off as a first level feat than as part of the core loadout- there's more thematic options to explore with it that way.

I think that these options are new player friendly, pretty intuitive, and balanced between each other.