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Some of the ideas I've seen floating around seem to want very different things out of summoner, to the point that I think its worth discussing what limited options we have to potentially differentiate core summoners via a "thesis" equivalent for the class to kindof set things apart for each of them. Here are my proposals - feedback? Thoughts? Criticism?
I'm calling them Bonds for now.
Intimate Bond - You have a particularly close bond with your Eidolon, giving you the ability to allow you to act through your Eidolon in a limited fashion. You gain the Lend Expertise action.
Lend Expertise - 1 action - Choose one of your Skill Feats. Until the end of the turn, your Eidolon may take actions as if it had that Skill Feat.
Summoning Bond - Your bond with your Eidolon allows you to draw other, related creatures from its home plane. Add the Summon Monster spell to your Spell Repetoire in addition to your other spells known. So long as your Eidolon is not manifested, you may spend a focus point to cast Summon Monster as a Focus Spell.
The Summon Monster spell works like Summon Animal, except that the creature summoned must share a trait that matches the base type of your eidolon and its alignment.
Sythesis Bond - Your bond with your eidolon manifests only through Synthesis with your own body. You gain the Synethesis feat, but cannot manifest your Eidolon otherwise. You can speak and interact with others normally while using Synthesis, allowing you to take actions without the manipulate or interact traits normally. You gain the assume control action.
Assert Control - 1 action - You can take actions normally, even while using Synthesis. You gain the benefit of your Eidolons attributes and abilities for these actions.
...thoughts? Concerns?
Intimidate Bond - You have a particularly close bond with your Eidolon, giving you the ability to allow you to act through your Eidolon in a limited fashion. You gain the Lend Expertise action.Intimidate or intimate?
One is definitely more hillarious than the other...
Posting on phones is hard.
Fixed, thanks.
I think it definitely needs another layer like this.
Synthesis should be more like a superior battle form that you can take when ever you want.
Improve evolution surge for players who want a weak summoner who really powers up their Eidolon for combat.
A variant that has more casting power, either more slots or a way to get slots back, maybe more focus spells or a few stances you can call formations that buff both you and your Eidolon when you stay close, to make the summoner have more options in combat. Maybe even lead into options that allow you both fight side by side.
Something to buff duration of summon spells and perhaps the feat making boost effect summons as default, things to make using summons great for combat and out of combat.
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Synthesis should be more like a superior battle form that you can take when ever you want.
The danger here is that a Synthesist can have an extremely good Statline by dumping physical stats with essentially no drawbacks. Restrictions on actions taken serve as a balance to this - it needs to be hard to take advantage of being Perfect-Stats-Man, or you start to make everyone at the table feel bad because your attribute for everything is always +4 or better on everything you care about across multiple stats.
Improve evolution surge for players who want a weak summoner who really powers up their Eidolon for combat.
I'd really prefer something that lets my Eidolon benefit from my skill feats in combat honestly. Stuff like Battle Medicine for Support, or Intimidating Glare/Scare to Death if Im going that route. Restricting this to eidolon specialists doesn't seem like it will hurt people that care less about the Eidolon as a summon.
A variant that has more casting power, either more slots or a way to get slots back, maybe more focus spells or a few stances you can call formations that buff both you and your Eidolon when you stay close, to make the summoner have more options in combat. Maybe even lead into options that allow you both fight side by side.Something to buff duration of summon spells and perhaps the feat making boost effect summons as default, things to make using summons great for combat and out of combat.
I like the idea of more Summoning spellcasting power as opposed to in general. Summon Monster as a Focus power is in concept extremely similar to Wild Shape - one spell slot that is limited, but available to you as your main combat trick once per encounter.
There are already options for more spells, via something like Sorcerer Multiclass.
It certainly can't be a summon focus spells because of infinite innate spells shenanigans during the day and making Celestial, Fiend and Fey way better than the rest. If it had a clause that it can't use spells I guess that would be fine.
It certainly can't be a summon focus spells because of infinite innate spells shenanigans during the day and making Celestial, Fiend and Fey way better than the rest. If it had a clause that it can't use spells I guess that would be fine.
I had this concern as well, but hadn't addressed it yet because I was considering compromises.
Maybe something like, "If a creature you Summoned with this spell uses the Cast a Spell action, you must expend a spell slot of an equal or higher level or the action fails."
Certain types are still better, but you'd have to choose if it was worth using your own spell resources to fuel them.
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I'm thinking more along the lines of what types of ideas and themes it should fill. Synthesis is the werewolf, shifter, American Dragon type of fantasy. You can find ways to curb it while still fulfilling that sort of fantasy.
Better ways to buff your pet really brings me Digimon vibes, having a very stark contrast in summoner and Eidolon power. As well as a protector vibe, where if you get attacked or hurt it can give you more options via reactions or such, your guardian protecting you and punishing the attacker, your own personal paladin.
I don't want just more spell casting, I want more options of things to do. Either spells, more cantrips, abilities that let you fight next to your Eidolon or actions/reactions/stances that promote playstyles and tactics other then move in and hit things while summoner stay at a distance and buff.
Yeah honestly this is what I had expected of the summoner paths, not flavours of eidolon.
I think it's more meaningful to fulfil the three familiar playstyles of the summoner as the base options, as you say:
1) Partner eidolon, with teamwork and casting focus
2) Synthesis eidolon, with self buff focus
3) Minions eidolon, your eidolon is an entity that takes the form of different summoned creatures (Summon X).
Then the flavours of eidolon and their abilities are much more ripe and extensible for class feats.
Add a breath weapon to your partner/battlesuit/summoned monster.
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Adding every single summon spell to your repertoire seems tremendously more powerful than sharing skill feats as an action. Even if I never intended to fight without my eidolon, getting like four signature spells for free is really strong.
I think people are overselling the value of a Synthesist using skills, though. You're still limited on skill checks by the actual proficiencies you can pick up and you're not actually gaining bonuses above and beyond what other characters could get.
I mean, Outwit Rangers can give themselves an extra +4 to half a dozen different skill actions that stacks on top of proficiency and attributes and nobody has ever accused them of being oppressive, despite effectively being able to punch two tiers above legendary (or roll with legendary modifiers on expert skills).
A synthesist who builds a specific statline just to be better at skills and spends class feats just to be better at skills can be a pretty damn good jack of all trades skill monkey and... that seems fine. I'm not sure why I should be upset at that idea.
I mean, Outwit Rangers can give themselves an extra +4 to half a dozen different skill actions that stacks on top of proficiency and attributes and nobody has ever accused them of being oppressive, despite effectively being able to punch two tiers above legendary (or roll with legendary modifiers on expert skills).
I just had to look this up, because I was unaware of it :)
That said, as soon as I thought "Scare to Death at +4!" I checked the bonus type, and sure enough its Circumstance. That's the same bonus type and amount you get from a Legendary Aid action, meaning that if you can convince your GM of a legitimate way to Aid a similar check with your own Legendary skill (which isn't hard, for many skills) you can actually reproduce that same bonus... two levels sooner. Meaning that while Outwit is good, its not exactly broken, or an outlier on bonus amount.
It is not problematic in the slightest, because this is exactly what a regular non-synthesist summoner can already do. A regular summoner has the exact same ability scores, skills, and proficiencies as this upgraded synthesist would have, just split between two bodies instead of using a switching mechanic. The two bodies thing is a downside in some cases, but it also enables the summoner to take full advantage of there action economy, which the synthesist loses out on.It's still really problematic when all you need to do is switch with 3 actions. Effectively on any task that isn't immediately required, you can still be best stat person. Randomly going to a library? Hold on 6 seconds while I switch. Climbing a ravine? One second while I switch. Identifying the possibly poisonous plants at the top? Hold on while I switch.I 100% agree with this approach.Synthesis should be more like a superior battle form that you can take when ever you want.
The danger here is that a Synthesist can have an extremely good Statline by dumping physical stats with essentially no drawbacks. Restrictions on actions taken serve as a balance to this - it needs to be hard to take advantage of being Perfect-Stats-Man, or you start to make everyone at the table feel bad because your attribute for everything is always +4 or better on everything you care about across multiple stats.
There is a very easy solution to this, allow the summoner to choose to keep their own stats when they go into synthesis mode, or use their eidolons stats. They cannot combine these approaches, but they can switch between them by resummoning there eidolon.
That takes care of the power problem and does so in a way that does not require reducing the synthesist to 2 actions (which would make the synthesist almost unplayable).
Except for the part for Synthesists being able to use their own abilities while in their Eidolon body would be able to derive benefits from Skill and Archetype/Dedication feats, sure, its exactly the same as a normal summoner.
Oh wait, that's a MASSIVE benefit.
If we end up being able to get Skill Feat benefits usable on manifested Eidolons, I agree that the result is at that point fairly comparable.