From this thread, I am looking for the best munchkinry available by pulling from three different classes.
So Elf ancestry with Ancient Elf heritage. Rogue class with Eldritch Trickster racket. Assume for the moment that the combination works and allows selection of two different archetype dedication feats.
What incredible builds can be built from that? Bonus points for not being too MAD and being able to pull off the schtick repeatedly. Whatever that schtick is: massive damage in a round; incredible versatility; social skills; making a ton of money during downtime; whatever else you can come up with.
Just Classes? or can we include Archetype?
I had champion/bastion/swashbucker. With 4 reactions.
LOL
This is PF2. The combo can certainly pull off incredible versatility, yet Rogue alone has that plus can max out its social skills and downtime money making too. So you're almost done right out the gate before even addressing the MCDs.
Leaving "massive damage". While with two MCDs a PC could have access to many types of spell damage, massive damage will have to wait as usual for all PCs. And you've already lost a step by not going w/ a Thief Rogue.
So you have to decide what to do in combat. The Racket implies you want Magical Trickster, likely using a Charisma class (Sorcerer for the offensive spells and to get an 18 for the max social skills & money). But then what? You'll still have to make your enemies flat-footed, and that may take a few feats to develop (unless there's party synergy) since you don't want to go into melee with this build! Getting two caster MCDs won't really boost your power and will take a lot of investment to come to fruition, giving even more versatility along the way, but not so much power, and not so many uses per day until much later.
So is there a martial class that'll boost a Rogue's power?
IMO, not by particularly much.
I don't think this combination breaks any of the power curves, at best giving broad access to Cantrips (yay) and spell items (well before having the money to own said items) or maybe adding an early extra martial trick or two to an Eldritch Trickster, which kinda needs to invest in its own shtick before developing a 2nd MCD.
If you wanna go all out on damage take rogue + swashbuckler + investigator
devise a stratagem and then finisher sneak attack
that makes a single strike with +15d6 to whatever else you got
fighter + sorcerer + monk with feats spent on eldritch archer
best defense, best offense and you have a devastating spell attack without the need for much casting ability and if you don't do that you can just flurry out a lot of arrows
rogue + fighter + arcane archer with a caster of your choice is probably also on the rahter lethal side - sneak attack eldritch shot must hurt
Free Archetype.
Animal barbarian.
Martial Art's Archetype.
Level 9 multitalented.
Level 10 flurry of blow's.
End result. A good unarmed when not raging.
When raging great unarmed.
Fob+martial arts press= did you miss with second hit of fob? Try again at -5 instead of -10.
Did you hit? Furious grab has your back.
If you wanna go all out on damage take rogue + swashbuckler + investigator
devise a stratagem and then finisher sneak attack
that makes a single strike with +15d6 to whatever else you got
fighter + sorcerer + monk with feats spent on eldritch archer
best defense, best offense and you have a devastating spell attack without the need for much casting ability and if you don't do that you can just flurry out a lot of arrows
rogue + fighter + arcane archer with a caster of your choice is probably also on the rahter lethal side - sneak attack eldritch shot must hurt
1. Wouldn't work, neither is a spellcaster
2. Interesting on its own, but not what's being discussed
3. Wouldn't work, AA isn't a multiclass available to Eldritch Trickster
I tried finding that out but I haven't found anything particularly strong. I did come to the point where I considered humans the better option to achieve that than elves because natural ambition ambition is often the same as ancient Elven heritage but they also offer multi talented. The latter offers whole new directions to go particularly with the half elf heritage.
A lot of my troubles with MCDs are the stat requirements. You gotta do funky stuff to get 14/14 str/dex for a lot of class combinations that wanna dump one of them.
Something I'm meaning to try is a Wizard/Witch/Druid to get access to Arcane Occult and Primal spells reaching legendary master/master/expert in them. Spell Blending thesis might do some fancy stuff with that kind of build.
Usually I just end up bored with the wizard instead.
A Witch and Wizard combo. Both rely on Int; Witch gives you a Familiar; can choose Arcane Patron for synergy or another Patron for another spell list. Also goes great with an Int based build relying on recall knowledge.
Sorcerer and Oracle would be my second choice. There are some powerful Revelation focus spells, and getting to use any of them once for free can be extremely powerful; combine that with Sorcerer Bloodline powers for some very interesting builds. Since they both use Cha, going Kobold for that sweet sweet sycophantic Grovel so you can you can use Feint and use a Cantrip with perfect synergy.
|
Start off lets set some ground rules on this cheese as it can get WAY out of hand if you're trying to use the Free Archetype rule since it outright states "you might want to ignore the free archetype’s normal restriction of selecting a certain number of feats before taking a new archetype" which makes things even more wacky-dacky. Same thing for Ancestry Paragon... for now....
Enable: Dual Class
Ignore: MCA "must take two feats" limits for EK and AE
Rogue/Fighter with EK, Sorcerer and Witch Dedications
Level 5 to showcase what you can/do get, lets see what I can cook up...
Male elf fighter 5/rogue 5
CN, Medium, Elf, Humanoid
Perception +9; low-light vision
Languages Common, Draconic, Elven, Gnomish, Orcish, Sylvan
Skills Acrobatics +10, Anatomy Lore +11, Arcana +11, Athletics +11, Crafting +11, Deception +10, Diplomacy +12, Intimidation +10, Medicine +7, Nature +9, Occultism +13, Religion +7, Society +11, Stealth +10, Survival +7, Thievery +12
Str 18 (+4), Dex 16 (+3), Con 10 (+0), Int 18 (+4), Wis 10 (+0), Cha 16 (+3)
Other Items buckler, leather, +1 striking shifting whip, familiar, money, purse (11 gp; 5 sp)
--------------------
AC 21 (22 with shield raised); Fort +9; Ref +12; Will +9 (Success vs fear effects are treated as a critical success instead.); +1 vs a spell you had Critical Success in identifying.
HP 56 Hero Points 1
Deny Advantage; As someone who takes advantage of others’ defenses, you are careful not to leave such openings yourself. You aren’t flat-footed to hidden, undetected, or flanking creatures of your level or lower, or creatures of your level or lower using surprise attack. However, they can still help their allies flank.
--------------------
Speed 30 feet
Melee [1] +1 striking shifting whip +16 (disarm, magical, trip, nonlethal, finesse, reach 10 feet), Damage 2d6+4 Slsh (+2d6 Slsh & Precision on Sneak Attack)
Occult Witch Spells DC 21, attack +11; 1st true strike Cantrips (3rd) shield, telekinetic projectile
Arcane Otherworldly Magic DC 13, attack +3; Cantrips (3rd) electric arc
Primal Sorcerer Spellcasting DC 20, attack +10; 1st (1 slots) grease Cantrips (3rd) detect magic, tanglefoot
Surprise Attack; You spring into combat faster than foes can react. On the first round of combat, if you roll Deception or Stealth for initiative, creatures that haven’t acted are flat-footed to you.
Feats Arcane Sense, Basic Sorcerer Spellcasting, Basic Witch Spellcasting, Battle Medicine, Bon Mot, Dual-handed Assault, Gnome Weapon Familiarity, Lunge, Magical Trickster, Otherworldly Magic, Recognize Spell, Risky Surgery, Shield Block, Snagging Strike, Sorcerer Dedication, Trick Magic Item, Witch Dedication
Other Abilities attack of opportunity, blood magic (nymph), bravery, cantrip connection, component substitution, eldritch trickster, familiar, fighter weapon mastery, rogue's racket, shield block, sneak attack, weapon tricks
-Setting up looks like this: True Strike > Snagging Strike > Dual-Handed Assault.
-If you used up True Strike you instead do: Grease > Dual-Handed Assault > Vanilla Strike.
-If you used up True Strike and Grease instead you do: Snagging Strike > Dual-Handed Assault > Vanilla Strike
If they ever provoke AoO (Spoiler, they will, constantly) you get a free attack with no MAP with 10 ft Reach that will trip the opponent and force them to waste more actions and movement.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A Witch and Wizard combo. Both rely on Int; Witch gives you a Familiar; can choose Arcane Patron for synergy or another Patron for another spell list. Also goes great with an Int based build relying on recall knowledge.
Sorcerer and Oracle would be my second choice. There are some powerful Revelation focus spells, and getting to use any of them once for free can be extremely powerful; combine that with Sorcerer Bloodline powers for some very interesting builds. Since they both use Cha, going Kobold for that sweet sweet sycophantic Grovel so you can you can use Feint and use a Cantrip with perfect synergy.
EDIT: i forgot Ancient Elf was only for, well, Elves. :p
With Adopted Ancestry i believe it’s still possible to get Grovel by level 5.
Hmm... I had forgotten about the Dual-Class variant rule from Gamemastery Guide. That does make the title of the thread a bit ambiguous.
One minute...
Apparently I can't change it now. But anyway,
Enable: Dual Class
Slow down there buddy. I already know that using the Dual-Class variant rules adds a ton of power to a character.
I'm talking about the archetype dedication feats that you can get from Ancient Elf and Eldritch Trickster. Everything else needs to be built using vanilla rules.
A Witch and Wizard combo. Both rely on Int; Witch gives you a Familiar; can choose Arcane Patron for synergy or another Patron for another spell list. Also goes great with an Int based build relying on recall knowledge.
Sorcerer and Oracle would be my second choice. There are some powerful Revelation focus spells, and getting to use any of them once for free can be extremely powerful; combine that with Sorcerer Bloodline powers for some very interesting builds. Since they both use Cha, going Kobold for that sweet sweet sycophantic Grovel so you can you can use Feint and use a Cantrip with perfect synergy.
Those are both really solid two-class options. I am not sure what the Rogue class is adding to this though. How would either of those stack up if you remove the Rogue class and promote one of the archetypes to the base class?
usually, more archetypes usually means more versatility, not more power.
that said, the "power" aspect of said combo in my opinion is not only the early entry (which can definately help in some builds) but the fact that you dont have to use high level class feats for the second archetype.
That is my thinking too.
Specifically, the Ancient Elf + Eldritch Trickster combo gains the level 2 class feat and the level 8 class feat over a more traditional two-archetype build.
But the cost for any two-archetype build is any sort of depth of options from any of the classes.
For one of the Caster Dedications? What about Cleric? Specifically, a Cleric with a deity who gets the Fire, Cold, Lightning, or Moon domains. Nothing like a nice focus spell/magical trickster combo to strike down an enemy quickly. The other archetype to grab would be wizard, for the conceal spell/silent spell combo.
Just imagine, you've got an enemy walking blithely down the hall, then BAM! Fire ray outta nowhere, straight to the face!
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Last night I designed (using the normal rules, no variatns) a character who (if I am remembering correctly):
Ancestry: Half-Elf (10/16/12/18/10/10)
Base Class: Wizard (Transmutation School)
2nd Level: Witch Multiclass Dedication (Arcane)
4th Level: Basic Witch Spellcasting
6th Level: Cantrip Expansion (Wizard)
8th Level: Patron's Breath
9th Level: Sorceror Multiclass Dedication (Arcane, using Multitalented)
10th Level: Sorceror Basic Spellcasting
12th Level: Witch Expert Spellcasting
14th Level: Sorceror Expert Spellcasting
16the Level: Sorceror Breadth
18th Level: Witch Master Spellcasting
20th Level: Sorceror Master Spellcasting
With Ancestry cantrips added in, and school spells slots, at Level 20, he has:
16 Cantrips (active slots)
8 Level 1 slots
8 level 2 slots
8 level 3 slots
8 level 4 slots
8 level 5 slots
8 level 6 slots
6 level 7 slots
6 level 8 slots
4 level 9 slots
1 level 10 slot
The Wizard and Witch slots have FULL spell attack/DC. The Sorceror slots lag a bit because CHA is lower.
So, a straight by-the-rules Wizard/Witch/Sorceror!
|
|
The advantage of the Eldritch Trickster is Magical Trickster at 2nd level. Which means attack spells and flat-footed.
The strength of Casters is offensive spells that target the various saves.
Your immediate gain from Caster Dedication feat is Cantrips.
My first thought would be to go Rogue/Sorcerer/Bard with the Sorcerer Tradition based on the cantrips. This enables focusing on CHA and DEX. And Inspire Courage at 8th level benefits your attack rolls. Also Invisibility.
The Rogue part would be focused on getting flat-footed.
And Elf would be about Speed and movement.
Maybe the Casters MCs should be chosen with the same Tradition to take advantage of increasing proficiency. Not sure if it is better than avoiding MAD for the casting.
I do not believe there is currently a Martial Class MC that benefits spell attacks. If there is one, it could replace one of the Caster MCs, trading versatility for power.
Maybe the future Magus MC would help here.
At first glance, this does not appear overly powerful. I would need to go deeper in the build to see what spells and feats can optimize it.
Can I put wizard spells in my witch multiclass slots if they're both arcane? And if I got arcane sorcerer later would I have to relearn spells I already know if I wanted basic utility in those charisma slots bc of spell repertoire?
Last night I designed (using the normal rules, no variatns) a character who (if I am remembering correctly):
Ancestry: Half-Elf (10/16/12/18/10/10)
Base Class: Wizard (Transmutation School)
2nd Level: Witch Multiclass Dedication (Arcane)
4th Level: Basic Witch Spellcasting
6th Level: Cantrip Expansion (Wizard)
8th Level: Patron's Breath
9th Level: Sorceror Multiclass Dedication (Arcane, using Multitalented)
10th Level: Sorceror Basic Spellcasting
12th Level: Witch Expert Spellcasting
14th Level: Sorceror Expert Spellcasting
16the Level: Sorceror Breadth
18th Level: Witch Master Spellcasting
20th Level: Sorceror Master SpellcastingWith Ancestry cantrips added in, and school spells slots, at Level 20, he has:
16 Cantrips (active slots)
8 Level 1 slots
8 level 2 slots
8 level 3 slots
8 level 4 slots
8 level 5 slots
8 level 6 slots
6 level 7 slots
6 level 8 slots
4 level 9 slots
1 level 10 slotThe Wizard and Witch slots have FULL spell attack/DC. The Sorceror slots lag a bit because CHA is lower.
So, a straight by-the-rules Wizard/Witch/Sorceror!
I LIKE IT! I'll switch out the lvl 6 feat for improved familiar (witch) for a 4 ability witch familiar (or just get cackle) on a staff nexus wizard but otherwise I wanna steal this character. Looks like a lot of fun
The advantage of the Eldritch Trickster is Magical Trickster at 2nd level. Which means attack spells and flat-footed.
The strength of Casters is offensive spells that target the various saves.
Your immediate gain from Caster Dedication feat is Cantrips.
My first thought would be to go Rogue/Sorcerer/Bard with the Sorcerer Tradition based on the cantrips. This enables focusing on CHA and DEX. And Inspire Courage at 8th level benefits your attack rolls. Also Invisibility.
The Rogue part would be focused on getting flat-footed.
And Elf would be about Speed and movement.
Maybe the Casters MCs should be chosen with the same Tradition to take advantage of increasing proficiency. Not sure if it is better than avoiding MAD for the casting.
I do not believe there is currently a Martial Class MC that benefits spell attacks. If there is one, it could replace one of the Caster MCs, trading versatility for power.
Maybe the future Magus MC would help here.
At first glance, this does not appear overly powerful. I would need to go deeper in the build to see what spells and feats can optimize it.
If you just want the speed Nimble Hooves from Tiefling Versatile Heritage would work too, going human would then free you up to use multitalented on lvl 9 for the 2nd dedication
I like that build could go into Eldritch Archer later too
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There are a lot of really cool and powerful builds in here. None of which use the trick of taking Ancient Elf and Eldritch Trickster to get two dedication feats at 1st level.
In fact, that trick actively cripples some of these builds. The most egregious being the Wizard/Witch/Sorcerer build.
If I did the trick with Ancient Elf + Eldritch Trickster on that build, I would bump the Wizard class down to an archetype and drop the Sorcerer entirely.
I would gain: a bunch of skill proficiency and skill feats, and 2 HP per level (40 HP at level 20). Hmm... the build by Captain Zoom is using a human ancestry feat for the second archetype, so the 8th level feat is already freed up. No gain there. I would gain the 2nd level Rogue class feat though.
I would lose: legendary proficiency for the spell casting, and more than half of the spell slots. Instead of having spell slots at 16,8,8,8,8,8,8,6,6,4,1 I would have 6,4,4,4,4,4,4,2,2,0,0.