Swarm strike damage?

[Corbin-626]

Maybe I'm just missing something, but what is the damage for the strike? While it says "a special unarmed strike that deals lethal damage, lacks the archaic trait, and has an item level equal to your nanocyte level" there is no actual damage amount listed and in the CRB there is only one unarmed strike listed, not different ones by level. If it doesn't change the 1d3 damage listed in the CRB this isn't exactly a competitive option. It would basically force you to take IUS and even then it's still not really competitive. I feel like it could be a decent last resort backup weapon, but that's it.

[Garretmander]

Aren't improved unarmed strike builds with 1.5-2x spec damage some of the best damage builds in the game?

[JiCi]

Either give Swarm Strike the same damage progression as the Solar Weapon and/or Solar Flare, or just grant Improved Unarmed Strike for free WITH the Swarm Strike knack.

[Garretmander]

I dunno, giving it better damage progresssion or a bonus feat seems too good for a level 2 selectable class ability.

As in, it becomes the autopick for most builds. Having to grab a feat to make full use of it is annoying, but I think a lot of people would take the option anyway.

[Corbin-626]

This is what I came up for a quick comparison on a per hit basis. This only uses the playtest and the CRB. I'm not including hit chance oar anything complicated, just looking at the avg and max damage. Also not including STR mod since it would be the same across the board. All numbers are at level 20 with appropriate weapon specializations/included class features but no fusions or crystals:

One-Hand
Solar 12d6+24 avg 66 max 96
Basic Melee 10d6+20 avg 55 max 80
Adv Melee 14d8+20 avg 83 max 132
IUS 7d6+20 avg 44 max 62
Swarm Strike 1d3+30 avg 32 max 33

Two-Hand
Solar 12d6+24 avg 66 max 96
Basic Melee 12d6+20 avg 62 max 94
Adv Melee 13d12+20 avg 104.5 max 176
IUS 7d6+20 avg 44 max 62
Swarm Strike 1d3+40 avg 42 max 43

That hardly looks competitive to me. In fact after having done this, I think it is even weaker and would really like someone to prove me wrong.

[Garretmander]

IUS stacks with swarm strike. Beyond that, you are comparing it at level 20, where IUS tapers off compared to the suddenly large numbers of damage dice starting around level 16 weapons. You want to look at it across a few more levels than just 20.

So, at 20:

One hand: 7d6+30, avg: 54, max: 72.
Two hand: 7d6+40, avg 64, max: 82.

So, let's take some snapshots of the levels where IUS upgrades as you go vs best of that level not unwieldy two handed melee weapons:

Level 4

SS - 1d6+6 - 9.5
Carbon steel curve blade - 1d10+4 - 10.5

Level 8

SS - 2d6+16 - 23
Various - 3d8+8 - 21.5

Level 12

SS - 3d6+24 - 34.5
various - 5d8+12 - 34.5

Level 15

SS - 5d6+30 - 47.5
Various - 7d8+15 - 46.5

Now, obviously that's best of level,and it's not considering a few more factors.

Other benefits of swarm strike - it costs you a level 2 class pick and a feat, you always have it on hand and don't need to spend money on upgrading it. You can use CON for accuracy, so if you build for a ranged nanocyte, and absolutely need a backup weapon for switch hitting, well this is way better than an operative weapon.

Other benefits of grabbing an advanced melee weapon instead - Fusions, damage type, hitting EAC, other weapon properties, at levels between IUS jumps you might find/buy a weapon that does more damage than swarm strike. If you go over level 15, IUS+2x spec just doesn't keep up with real weapons.

[Dracomicron]

Corbin-626 wrote:

All numbers are at level 20...

Whoa, hang on. Almost nobody plays at level 20. While analysis at that level is valid (if lacking in detail by omitting IUS from Swarm Strike, as Garretmander mentioned), the important numbers is how the math works out at the low levels that most people play at, which generally tapers off around level 7 or 8.

As someone who has played a natural weapons character to level 10, I can tell you that IUS+1.5xlevel specialization is more than competitive. Tack on shroud benefits and Con as attack stat, and it's exceptionally impressive.

I also don't agree that IUS should be built in. They built IUS into Pistol Whip, and it was too good for Society play, requiring that Death Strike come out later, without the freebie IUS, so Society operatives could have effective unarmed builds.

[Corbin-626]

Garretmander wrote:

IUS stacks with swarm strike. Beyond that, you are comparing it at level 20, where IUS tapers off compared to the suddenly large numbers of damage dice starting around level 16 weapons. You want to look at it across a few more levels than just 20.

So, at 20:

One hand: 7d6+30, avg: 54, max: 72.
Two hand: 7d6+40, avg 64, max: 82.

So, let's take some snapshots of the levels where IUS upgrades as you go vs best of that level not unwieldy two handed melee weapons:

Level 4

SS - 1d6+6 - 9.5
Carbon steel curve blade - 1d10+4 - 10.5

Level 8

SS - 2d6+16 - 23
Various - 3d8+8 - 21.5

Level 12

SS - 3d6+24 - 34.5
various - 5d8+12 - 34.5

Level 15

SS - 5d6+30 - 47.5
Various - 7d8+15 - 46.5

Now, obviously that's best of level,and it's not considering a few more factors.

Other benefits of swarm strike - it costs you a level 2 class pick and a feat, you always have it on hand and don't need to spend money on upgrading it. You can use CON for accuracy, so if you build for a ranged nanocyte, and absolutely need a backup weapon for switch hitting, well this is way better than an operative weapon.

Other benefits of grabbing an advanced melee weapon instead - Fusions, damage type, hitting EAC, other weapon properties, at levels between IUS jumps you might find/buy a weapon that does more damage than swarm strike. If you go over level 15, IUS+2x spec just doesn't keep up with real weapons.

Stacking it with IUS definitely helps, I had meant to have that in the chart and had a brain fart. I also should have said that I was thinking of this from a single attack per round viewpoint because they have so many support options that I wasn't expecting to full attack. Hence the unwieldy weapons being including in my comparison. Thanks for the input.

[Corbin-626]

Dracomicron wrote:

Corbin-626 wrote:

All numbers are at level 20...

Whoa, hang on. Almost nobody plays at level 20. While analysis at that level is valid (if lacking in detail by omitting IUS from Swarm Strike, as Garretmander mentioned), the important numbers is how the math works out at the low levels that most people play at, which generally tapers off around level 7 or 8.

As someone who has played a natural weapons character to level 10, I can tell you that IUS+1.5xlevel specialization is more than competitive. Tack on shroud benefits and Con as attack stat, and it's exceptionally impressive.

I also don't agree that IUS should be built in. They built IUS into Pistol Whip, and it was too good for Society play, requiring that Death Strike come out later, without the freebie IUS, so Society operatives could have effective unarmed builds.

I don't know if I agree with you on how many people play at high levels, but that is unrelated to my point. Whether or not it is rare, it still happens. I also addressed the lack of IUS in my comparison in my reply to Garretmander, it was an accidental omission on my part. And while CON to hit is nice, it doesn't work for damage as confirmed by Joe Pasini. Which means that unless you're also pumping STR those numbers above might not actually be as close as they appear.

Still, thanks for the input!

[Robbgobb]

Also doesn't include that Swarm Strike becomes a thrown weapon and reach weapon as well. Don't know how much the thrown part will be used but it is an option.

So is 28 the highest a stat can go? So that would be a +4 more than someone just investing the every 5 levels +2 and a +2 personal upgrade? It might make it a little less damage but not what I would think was greatly different unless able to hit 4 times per round.

+0 Str is still 7d6 + 40 with reach and range of 60. That seems pretty nice.

At 8th level it is 2d6 + 16 with range 20.

The main thing I see with the reading is it does need to say how the thrown property works because I am sure it will be up for discussion in the rules on what that means for the nanocyte sheath and if it is just an extension of the ability that is still just a punch but provokes as a range attack or whatever. The thrown part is nice but it does lack for some description for how it works. I think of it like sending a punch of focused nanites through the air so does not lose the punch but I can't say that is what is meant.

[Garretmander]

28 is the highest stat possible with a starting 18 and the mk 3 personal upgrade added in.

Except strength, where the level 20 starguard power armor can give you 30, and if combined with power armor jockey, you'll get 36 STR from your armor.

[Claxon]

Keep in mind upgrading strength isn't completely free and has opportunity costs.

This talent plus improved unarmed strike make a great backup weapon if you don't want to focus on melee and instead prefer to focus on ranged options.

The damage is competitive even if it isn't the best at all levels.

If you want to focus on melee you're going to use a two-handed weapon which will have more damage output, but it's also a focus at that point.

[Dracomicron]

Robbgobb wrote:

The main thing I see with the reading is it does need to say how the thrown property works because I am sure it will be up for discussion in the rules on what that means for the nanocyte sheath and if it is just an extension of the ability that is still just a punch but provokes as a range attack or whatever. The thrown part is nice but it does lack for some description for how it works. I think of it like sending a punch of focused nanites through the air so does not lose the punch but I can't say that is what is meant.

It is an intriguing question.

I was curious about this:

If you aren’t within 60 feet of the array or the array is physically blocked from reaching you, the nanites instead break down, and you can’t use your nanite array again until you spend 1 Resolve Point and take a full action to create a replacement array.

So if you throw your swarm strike 65 feet from you, does your sheath array end, requiring a full action and a resolve point?

[Robbgobb]

Dracomicron wrote:

It is an intriguing question.

I was curious about this:

If you aren’t within 60 feet of the array or the array is physically blocked from reaching you, the nanites instead break down, and you can’t use your nanite array again until you spend 1 Resolve Point and take a full action to create a replacement array.

So if you throw your swarm strike 65 feet from you, does your sheath array end, requiring a full action and a resolve point?

I agree. I like the playtest but it does feel like someone is doing a Wild West gunfight with modern weapons. So many things feel a touch off but I figure that is what we are to suppose to test and see what is needed. It does leave thing left in a situation that very confusing in a rules sense that at the moment I am sure will be very hard to nail down exactly how something works without an official reply.

[Milo v3]

You wouldn't lose the array as the array isn't leaving. The swarmstrike is a weapon you can only use while in sheath array, but it isn't a sheath array in of itself.... Still super weird to have Throwing though.

[Dracomicron]

Milo v3 wrote:

Still super weird to have Throwing though.

Think of Swarm Strike as punching someone with bees.

Then command the bees to fly at the enemy.

Doesn't everything make sense now?