1 - Devil at the Dreaming Palace (GM Reference)

[Deadmanwalking]

Luke Styer wrote:

Rysky wrote:

The title is Devil at the Dreaming Palace, not Devil who owns the Dreaming Palace, with Pratchett mentioning he owns the place at the opening it’d be an assumption to auto assume he’s gonna be the Big Bad

The title is a reference to “The Devil in the White City,” a book that is literally about a serial murderer hotelier who operated in a major city during the World’s Fair, and this guy is introduced as a hotelier during the Golarion equivalent of the World’s Fair.

Sure, but how many players know that going in? I certainly didn't until it got brought up, and I'm interested in serial killers and was already familiar with H.H. Holmes.

[Rysky]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Luke Styer wrote:

Rysky wrote:

The title is Devil at the Dreaming Palace, not Devil who owns the Dreaming Palace, with Pratchett mentioning he owns the place at the opening it’d be an assumption to auto assume he’s gonna be the Big Bad

The title is a reference to “The Devil in the White City,” a book that is literally about a serial murderer hotelier who operated in a major city during the World’s Fair, and this guy is introduced as a hotelier during the Golarion equivalent of the World’s Fair.

Sure, but how many players know that going in? I certainly didn't until it got brought up, and I'm interested in serial killers and was already familiar with H.H. Holmes.

Same, I didn’t know about that book till this thread.

[Kazimir_980]

Moximus wrote:

"Oh no, poor Hendrik Pratchett accidently had his hotel built on the site of an old secret cult headquarters, and has undead and devils now spawning in his basement!"

Easy enough to do as a red herring - could even be partially true, and he's using the old cult summoning energies to help power his nefarious traps.

But it's still a bit annoying to have to change things as written and build that into your narrative just because of the title they choose.

Yep, this is the route I'm going. I made the skeletons that appear during the first patrol spawn near his property, to add onto the idea that Hendrik is the poor victim of a very unfortunate choice of location.

[Jon Yamato 705]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Luke Styer wrote:

The title is a reference to “The Devil in the White City,” a book that is literally about a serial murderer hotelier who operated in a major city during the World’s Fair, and this guy is introduced as a hotelier during the Golarion equivalent of the World’s Fair.

Sure, but how many players know that going in? I certainly didn't until it got brought up, and I'm interested in serial killers and was already familiar with H.H. Holmes.

My household had read the book, and the title was a clear and annoying spoiler. If we ran this we'd be firmly in "pretend you don't know the whole plotline in advance" territory. Which we can do, certainly, but it's not as much fun for me in particular (my player doesn't care as much).

[Sporkedup]

Kazimir_980 wrote:

I think we're allowed to be outraged by this and the PCs will eventually confront and potentially right this injustice.

That's where I'm at on this. The PCs are expected to be good, lawful people. We know further down the line varying degrees of significant corruption will exist. I guess we'll start finding out hopefully this week if more seeds of friction between the party and their employers will feature.

And if there isn't, put it in yourself. Easy, and it gives them more roleplay and character-building options outside of the main core of the AP.

That's my opinion.

[Deadmanwalking]

Jon Yamato 705 wrote:

My household had read the book, and the title was a clear and annoying spoiler. If we ran this we'd be firmly in "pretend you don't know the whole plotline in advance" territory. Which we can do, certainly, but it's not as much fun for me in particular (my player doesn't care as much).

I mean, fair enough, but how much of that is that you know it's a reference? The only actual word in common in 'Devil' which one might assume to be taken literally given that it's a fantasy game. You and I know it's a reference, but will even people who've read the book immediately jump to that conclusion?

I really don't know.

Sporkedup wrote:

Kazimir_980 wrote:

I think we're allowed to be outraged by this and the PCs will eventually confront and potentially right this injustice.

That's where I'm at on this. The PCs are expected to be good, lawful people. We know further down the line varying degrees of significant corruption will exist. I guess we'll start finding out hopefully this week if more seeds of friction between the party and their employers will feature.

And if there isn't, put it in yourself. Easy, and it gives them more roleplay and character-building options outside of the main core of the AP.

That's my opinion.

Yeah, the AP literally culminates in the PCs fighting systemic corruption within the Absalom city government. I don't mind evidence of corruption and badness in said government, especially if (as in this case) the PCs and indeed the City Guard in general are refusing to take part in it directly.

The problem with the civil forfeiture angle is that it's a form of unpleasantness that the PCs are actively indulging in themselves. That's harder to justify or deal with.

[Sporkedup]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

The problem with the civil forfeiture angle is that it's a form of unpleasantness that the PCs are actively indulging in themselves. That's harder to justify or deal with.

Of course agreed. It's mostly just a cut corner as far as the adventure goes. I plan to run this with automatic progression and worry about the rest of the treasure and wealth gain another way. I understand why they can't do that, though--this campaign shouldn't require the GMG to run, since they've marketed that as totally optional.

[Deadmanwalking]

They could've listed rewards per quest from the station house rather than treasure per encounter. That would've been easy enough to do, preserved a lot of the feel of adventuring, and IMO, they really should've done just that.

Which is not to say I don't understand why they didn't, but I think not doing so was a bad mistake.

[Rysky]

That the act of the displacement of numerous people living in the precipice district possibly was done by the main villain only softens the sting marginally, it's the retcon that the place was a unlivable hellhole filled with monsters and undead that killed all who enter to "oh no there was plenty of poor people living here just fine, until we kicked them all out that is".

[Kazimir_980]

Rysky wrote:

That the act of the displacement of numerous people living in the precipice district possibly was done by the main villain only softens the sting marginally, it's the retcon that the place was a unlivable hellhole filled with monsters and undead that killed all who enter to "oh no there was plenty of poor people living here just fine, until we kicked them all out that is".

Maybe it wasn't a retcon so much as it was the public perception vs. the unappetizing truth.

It is easy to believe that in the real world there are gorgeous little white picket fence suburbs that are free of homeless people, but the truth that people don't like to acknowledge is that the police often relocate any vagrants to designated skid row regions.

If the uncomfortable reality rings too close to home, there's no reason one couldn't omit it from the game. As you said, this point only shows up in the Adventure Toolbox section that is meant to flesh out the Radiant Festival and give potential hooks for ideas and side stories.

Heck, this sounds like a great side story/addition to really add punch to start disconnecting the players from the Edgewatch.

[GayBirdGM]

I'd like to preface this by saying I'm normally really bad at big posts and sharing my thoughts, so if I ramble or make no sense I'm sorry ahead of time.

I definitely think they could've handled the typical 'loot' aspect of an adventure in a better manner. It would have been pretty easy to price the items they confiscate, have those put aside until the arrested party is released and gets their stuff back, and just have the agents paid an amount of gold similar to what they would have gotten for pawning a bunch of stolen stuff. I also don't agree with Ama offering a monetary bribe just to avoid legal problems, that's gross. It could've easily been put as "they get paid 100gp for doing their job", which is what I will be changing it to.

I do, however, agree with Deadmanwalking that the displacement of citizens and the corrupt systems being present as things we are supposed to fight are fine, because..we are supposed to fight those things and stop them. Adventure paths tend to have "bad people doing bad things and the players are there to stop the bad things" (not counting Hells Vengeance, of course), and it seems like the theme of this one is "fighting corrupt government officials and the systems they use".

The delay of the Absalom book is annoying, but that doesn't give me reason to assume that, in the meantime, Absalom justice is "working like 2020 America". I would like Paizo to partake in threads like these to clear up some things while we wait for the supplemental material, I truly think they should do so, especially to clear up the writing that seems to retcon previous material. I would like clarification on that, I think we all want to know what is actually happening in the city.

So far, I enjoy the AP, there's some issues as there usually are and changes I will have to make as I usually do. I personally wouldn't play this AP with a random group table, but among my trusted group that I play with I know this will be a good AP for us. I am excited to see the next few books and how the theme of tackling corruption in the justice system plays out in the course of the adventure.

[Sporkedup]

Nothing is too wild or off that can't be easily tweaked by a GM to match it to their table. Same as any AP. This one just touches on a few rawer issues due to the timing.

Yeah, the loot system needed better work. Civil forfeiture sounds fine when you're clearing a ghost out of an old building or something, but it hits problems pretty quickly. This is my only actual problem with the AP as written. And it's a very, very easy fix--especially as most GMs will modify treasure anyways to tailor it to the party.

If things like displacement and stuff are background problems that receive either no or positive attention throughout the AP, then I might have something to say at the end of things. That's pretty much my stance at this point. I really like the adventure, especially how out the box it is, and I understand it might have some rough corners. But I am going to wait to see how it all fits together before I get upset at anything (though it takes a lot to upset me and DatDP hasn't crossed any lines in that regard to me).

Anyways. Based on what I've read so far and the promise of the giant Absalom source book coming, I would think that with just a few tweaks here and there this could be one of the best Paizo APs in a long time. Certainly has a better first book than the last two APs, which is very promising to me.

[Bast L.]

While I'm not using the non-lethal rule, I am giving enemies death saves/dying condition. I also stressed the non-escalation, try to resolve things in better ways idea to my players.

We're only through the menagerie, but so far, the players have been trying to do things in better ways, and often succeeding. When they do fight, they try to take things alive, and (almost) as the book says, "everything you fight is trying to kill you," so if they do use lethal force, it's justified (and even then, they try to stabilize). The only thing other than the skeletons that's died so far was a weak hyena that was critically hit (enough to kill it outright).

All of this to say, they're trying, and pretty well succeeding, at playing good character guards.

Except for the robbery/loot system. That's just hilarious. After they talked the adventurers down in the bar, I explained the fines (I'd done so previously too), and they all started laughing at how silly it was. "Glad we could be reasonable, now give us all your stuff!"

[Moximus]

"Shanty town established by immigrants who'd been hired to help in the reconstruction of the ruined Precipice Quarter. Now that the surprisingly low paying construction jobs are drying up, many have found that living in Absalom is beyond their means, yet lack the funds to return to their original homes (or would prefer not to)."

That's my edit when we get to that part. It still gives a community of impoverished individuals, wronged by the festival organizers and the city by not having been paid enough for their hard work and unable to move elsewhere.

It's one thing to add to the list of things to adjust for this AP. Though honestly, I don't think I've ever ran an adventure as written (except for Society play, and, oh man, sometimes it's sooo tempting even then).

[Crivens]

I don't see any issues here that can't be rectified by a good session zero, players who are invested in playing good agents in a very popular entertainment trope and any half decent GM who can improvise around issues their table may have.

The core of what is written here is an excellent adventure.

Alter recipe to allow for allergies and add seasoning for taste. Bon appetit!

[Crivens]

Moximus wrote:

"Shanty town established by immigrants who'd been hired to help in the reconstruction of the ruined Precipice Quarter. Now that the surprisingly low paying construction jobs are drying up, many have found that living in Absalom is beyond their means, yet lack the funds to return to their original homes (or would prefer not to)."

That's my edit when we get to that part. It still gives a community of impoverished individuals, wronged by the festival organizers and the city by not having been paid enough for their hard work and unable to move elsewhere.

This is a great idea. I'll probably emphasise the Aspis Consortium more as my players have a history...

[Bast L.]

So, ran game three last night, and the players went to the Pagoda. Unfortunately for them, they tried to negotiate with Doopa, who, as the book says, "asks the agents to wait here while she goes to fetch Rekarek (who brings her cadre of guards, as well as Cheel and Josk from area C3, and attacks the Edgewatch agents, claiming they are imposters regardless of any evidence to the contrary)."

It was a pretty bad fight, with several crits from the great pick, including when it was picked up by Tiktal, after Rekarek fell (as per page 27).

So, with the party defeated and dying, the kobolds offered to let them surrender, and give up their gold (in true Absalomian fashion), which they did. They retreated to the Precinct, where some guards mocked them, and the lieutenant gave them hell for running, tail between their legs, from construction workers, and bringing shame to the Edgewatch.

It just felt unfair to the players. They were trying to play good guards, who make an effort to de-escalate the situation, and the reward was a beyond extreme encounter (40 + 4*20 + 3*30 = 210 xp, ignoring the trap). There were mutinous grumblings from the players after that would-be TPK (I don't normally pull punches, but this fight was too unfair).

This is the day after the boss gauntlet of the menagerie, which was itself after several encounters on their beat.

The AP gives a lot of treasure, but it seems pretty rough so far.

Edit: Is Rekarek not supposed to know Common? Her listing only shows Draconic. My party may be the only one to ever not know Draconic, so I just had Doopa translate.

[GayBirdGM]

I'm thinking the milestone leveling is wrong and they're supposed to be level 2 for the Pagoda chapter.

The encounter with Rekarek is Severe 2, which is severe for a level 2 party. I don't know why the milestones at the beginning say they level to 2 AFTER the whole of chapter 1 and 2.

[Bast L.]

GayBirdGM wrote:

I'm thinking the milestone leveling is wrong and they're supposed to be level 2 for the Pagoda chapter.

The encounter with Rekarek is Severe 2, which is severe for a level 2 party. I don't know why the milestones at the beginning say they level to 2 AFTER the whole of chapter 1 and 2.

Yeah, I'm using XP, and they were 15xp shy of level 2 after the menagerie, so I just let them level between games, but keep the 15 debt.

Even at 2, it's beyond extreme. The xp was calculated for level 2. You have 1 at level (Rekarek): 40 xp, 3 level -1s (Doopa, Cheel, and Josk): 90 xp, and 4 level -2s (Epset, Kipper, Steggy, and Tiktal): 80 xp. Total: 210 xp. Extreme encounter is 160.

At level 1, the proper level by the advancement track, the encounter xp is 60 + 120 + 120 = 300, nearly double an extreme encounter.

I'm not sure what they were going for here. The party runs away?

[dharkus]

regardless of what it says in the advancement section, it's probably a good idea to go off when the encounters move from [difficulty] 1 to [difficulty] 2, i.e. the end of chapter 1, seems likely it's a mistake in the advancement section

[Deadmanwalking]

Bast L. wrote:

So, ran game three last night, and the players went to the Pagoda. Unfortunately for them, they tried to negotiate with Doopa, who, as the book says, "asks the agents to wait here while she goes to fetch Rekarek (who brings her cadre of guards, as well as Cheel and Josk from area C3, and attacks the Edgewatch agents, claiming they are imposters regardless of any evidence to the contrary)."

Doopa has a +1 Deception bonus. Total. Did you give the PCs a Sense Motive (which is to say Perception) roll to see what she was doing? Because you really should've and they really should've passed, given the likely disparity in bonuses. I mean, either that or had her roll Deception vs. their Perception DCs. Either has really low odds of success.

Making her auto-succeed at masking her clear intention to directly screw them over is not supported by the rules at all.

[Bast L.]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Bast L. wrote:

So, ran game three last night, and the players went to the Pagoda. Unfortunately for them, they tried to negotiate with Doopa, who, as the book says, "asks the agents to wait here while she goes to fetch Rekarek (who brings her cadre of guards, as well as Cheel and Josk from area C3, and attacks the Edgewatch agents, claiming they are imposters regardless of any evidence to the contrary)."

Doopa has a +1 Deception bonus. Total. Did you give the PCs a Sense Motive (which is to say Perception) roll to see what she was doing? Because you really should've and they really should've passed, given the likely disparity in bonuses. I mean, either that or had her roll Deception vs. their Perception DCs. Either has really low odds of success.

Making her auto-succeed at masking her clear intention to directly screw them over is not supported by the rules at all.

Nothing suggests Doopa is trying to screw them over, or deceive them. It says she's receptive to them, and goes to fetch her boss. It's the boss that's unreasonable.

[Deadmanwalking]

Bast L. wrote:

Nothing suggests Doopa is trying to screw them over, or deceive them. It says she's receptive to them, and goes to fetch her boss. It's the boss that's unreasonable.

Ah, you're right. Yeah, that's a bit harsh, then. Though in that circumstance, as a GM, I'd probably still give the PCs a roll to notice her naivete, and make appropriate preparations, and would definitely have Doopa side with PCs who successfully won her over if she sides with anyone.

Nevertheless, even without her, you're right, that still comes off as much harsher than it should be given that it creates an Extreme level fight just by trying to be reasonable.

[GayBirdGM]

I think once Rekarek is defeated it's not too out of line for the kobolds to become distracted for a round by trying to take the pick and make themselves the new leader, maybe buy the party some time with something like that.

The fight itself takes place in the first area, I'd probably also have it to where Ama is still close enough to hear and if she hears Rekarek calling them imposters she could try to intervene on the player's behalf to counter the lie. While Doopa is fetching Rekarek, that also gives the players time to see and disable the fountain trap, hopefully.

Unfortunately it's all speculation on my end, I don't start running Agents until September!

[Riobux]

GayBirdGM wrote:

Unfortunately it's all speculation on my end, I don't start running Agents until September!

At earliest I'd be able to run AoE next year as just hit book 4 of Extinction Curse, and I'm just immensely antsy to get to AoE.

[GayBirdGM]

Riobux wrote:

GayBirdGM wrote:

Unfortunately it's all speculation on my end, I don't start running Agents until September!

At earliest I'd be able to run AoE next year as just hit book 4 of Extinction Curse, and I'm just immensely antsy to get to AoE.

Ah, forever GM?

I'm a player in our freshly started Extinction Curse, one of 3 GMs at our table. Just finished my last PF1 campaign[did Iron Gods, loved it!] and will be running Agents as my first PF2 campaign.

I'm just antsy waiting for my book 2 to ship right now. I neeeed it.

[Riobux]

GayBirdGM wrote:

Ah, forever GM?

I'm a player in our freshly started Extinction Curse, one of 3 GMs at our table. Just finished my last PF1 campaign[did Iron Gods, loved it!] and will be running Agents as my first PF2 campaign.

I'm just antsy waiting for my book 2 to ship right now. I neeeed it.

FOREVER GM. I am trapped in the chair, chains snaking over my arms and legs to ensure no one takes this throne of mine as much as I wish someone would. It's Lich King territory, just with less Bolvar-the-killable. It's so bad that I was actually talking to someone today about how I play Organised Play online because it's literally my only chance to play Pathfinder 2nd.

So until I can finish Extinction Curse, as much as I definitely dig it loads, there's no touching Agents of Edgewatch. Which is a shame because AoE is pretty much everything I could want, both as a player and as a GM. It is no coincidence that between books I tend to run other systems as a pallet cleanser and Call of Cthulhu is the only system my group has wanted to go back to time-and-time again. Something about a more RP-heavy urban open-world style just really clicks with everyone, and AoE seems to deliver this in spades.

It's weird I only just realised Book 2 is shipping soon, which luckily I'll get a shiny PDF to gawk through. Shipping to the UK takes something like 3 weeks to arrive.

[Zapp]

GayBirdGM wrote:

I'm thinking the milestone leveling is wrong and they're supposed to be level 2 for the Pagoda chapter.

The encounter with Rekarek is Severe 2, which is severe for a level 2 party.

Yes, "low 2" and "severe 2" means the party is expected to be level 2.

[Zapp]

In the end, everything boils down to one simple question:

Are you able to see Agents of Edgewatch for what it is - an Adventure Path where Bards and Barbarians kill monsters, take their loot and level up, having much fun in the process?

If you can't help but to put more into it, consider Agents of Edgewatch to be a trainwreck in tone and execution, and that there's only one way to safely deal with it - by voting with your wallet and staying as far away as possible!

That might come off as harsh, but at least it's honest.