I have a monster with the Cleave feat and grab ability. When it attempts to Cleave and hits an opponent, should it first make a grapple attempt, or continue with the cleave?
Cleave As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. (...)
Grab If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. (...)
Grab ability grants additional free action, andt it is used immediately after the attack. But the same can be said for Cleave, which grants and additional attack (not specifying what action it is), also to be performed immediately after the first one. So which should go first: Grab or Cleave?
If Grab goes first can the attacker continue the Cleave? If Cleave goes first, can the attacker still attempt to Grab the first opponent?
Rather than delve into rules, think for a moment about what's happening here physically. Cleave lets you attack one creature then move on to another quickly; grab lets you grab a creature you hit, clamping down with the bite or claw. Grabbing has to happen before you leave and move on to the next target. So the sequence must be initial attack-grab-second cleave attack.
Yeah, I reckon I'll stick with being in one place at one time, magic excluded. Real world physics can come that far into PF.
Edit: and a successful grab would end the cleave (mouth full of enemy #1 now), but I don't see why an unsuccessful one should.
I think there's a couple of things to keep in mind.
To start with, unless you have an ability that states otherwise once you gain the grappled condition you no longer threaten any creatures around you. So, if you successfully grapple a creature with your initial attack there are no other creatures that are both adjacent and in range for you to make the 2nd attack against.
That being said, creatures with grab do get an extra option.
The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself.
Additionally, cleave doesn't indicate that you must use the same weapon. So, if the creature has another attack available to it it could finish the cleave using that weapon, while keeping the 1st enemy grappled. If the creature only has one weapon/attack I don't see anyway for it to make the 2nd attack unless it either fails it's initial grapple check, immediately releases it's first target, or foregoes it's first free grapple all together.
unless you have an ability that states otherwise once you gain the grappled condition you no longer threaten any creatures around you
Is that correct? I know you cannot make AoO when you have grappled condition, but I can't find a rule that you don't threaten their squares normally, for the purpose of making attacks during your turn or flanking. I know it has been discused in other topics, and I believe that interpretation that being able to make AoO is dependedt on threating, but not the other way around.
Additionally, cleave doesn't indicate that you must use the same weapon. So, if the creature has another attack available to it it could finish the cleave using that weapon, while keeping the 1st enemy grappled. If the creature only has one weapon/attack I don't see anyway for it to make the 2nd attack unless it either fails it's initial grapple check, immediately releases it's first target, or foregoes it's first free grapple all together.
That poses another question. What if the other weapon is a secondary natural attack. Take the werecrocodile (Bestiary 4) as an example. It has Cleave, bite with grab and tail slap attack. Cleave says that the second attack is made at full BAB. Can the second attack be made with the tail slap, even though it is a secondary natural weapon, and thus it usually takes -5 penalty to the attack roll?
a secondary natural attack has nothing to do with BAB, no realation, you can have secondary natural attacks at level 1 with 0 bab.
Yes, but tI'm not talking about -5 penalty for making additional attacks when having high BAB. I'm talking about the rule
Secondary attacks are made using the creature’s base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls.
that is applied to the secondary attacks even if they are gained at 1st level with 0 BAB.
But never mind that, I think I've figured out the relation between Cleave and natural attacks: you cannot make Cleave with secondary attacks precisely because they don'ere a primary natural attack, it could be used to continue the cleave, but tail slap is secondary, so it cannot.
unless you have an ability that states otherwise once you gain the grappled condition you no longer threaten any creatures around youIs that correct? I know you cannot make AoO when you have grappled condition, but I can't find a rule that you don't threaten their squares normally, for the purpose of making attacks during your turn or flanking. I know it has been discused in other topics, and I believe that interpretation that being able to make AoO is dependedt on threating, but not the other way around.
Interesting, I thought you couldn't make AoO because you didn't threaten the area around you not that it was an action prohibited by the grappled condition. Looking at the grappled condition in more detail I see that it is called out as something you specifically can't do. I suppose this simplifies things a bit.
If you don't take the -20 to the grapple check then the weapon, limb, etc. used to make the intial attack isn't specifically occupied. So there's nothing keeping you from grabbing a second target, even while keeping the 1st target grappled. It's not even difficult to imagine.
There are two paper towel rolls sitting vertically, side by side on a table. You swipe your arm and grab both of them off the table in a single motion. Of course, as with any grapple build just because you're able to grab a bunch of enemies in one round, it doesn't mean you have enough actions to actually maintain the grapple on all of them. Without any feats or special abilities you can only keep one of them and have to let go of the rest.
you also can't change your cleave weapon mid cleave.
who said anything about changing weapons? If I have weapon 1 in my left hand and weapon 2 in my right hand. Cleave seems to indicate that I could attack enemy A with weapon 1 and if I hit I can follow through with my attack and hit enemy B with weapon 2. This could easily be imagined as the character doing a sort of spin cut that hits both enemies.
cleave has to finish first nothing can happen between the first and second attack because its all the same action. cleave, hit, hit, free grab, free grab.
Wrong. "You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally." CRB pg. 181
you also can't change your cleave weapon mid cleave.
Because of the above, you could even drop your weapon (free action), draw a weapon with Quick Draw (free action), and make the bonus attack with the second weapon.
I have seen this case recently. One of my players have an animal companion that is a Huge T-rex. It has grab in his bite and has de cleave feat.
So... In a realistic way he can grab even three creatures that are medium or smaller with one bite BUT the grab ability has two rules that doesn't let you do that.
First you make a grabe as a free action and the rules of pathfinder and D&D says you can't make the same free action two times in a round, turn o whatever.
The secon says you can use the part of the body with the grab ability to make the grab with a -20 in the chek, but you don't gain the grapled condition, so you can keep grabing more creatures with the bite in the next round but as i said before not in the same round.
First you make a grabe as a free action and the rules of pathfinder and D&D says you can't make the same free action two times in a round, turn o whatever.
There is no such rule, which is good since
Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action.
if there were, it would shut down archers (and thrown weapon builds with quick draw) pretty hard.
There’s a suggestion in the rules (but all rules are technically just suggestions anyway so ymmv) that a GM can limit certain free actions to 1 or so many uses a round. This is mainly to prevent long winded monologuing of strategy (or specific cheese like old fashioned rage cycling) as opposed to limit every free action to once per round.
In any case, for many creatures, it makes perfect sense for them to be able to scoop up multiple enemies in their mouth or similar body part. Keep in mind that a grab also isn’t a pin or disablement, so even if it were to get a hold of you and someone else by the arm, that sorta still makes sense even with close size differences.
What does threatening have to do with cleave? When you use cleave you are not making an AoO. Cleave states that it allows you to make an additional attack against of foe that is adjacent to the first one and within reach. Reach is property of the weapon being used. Just because you can no longer make AoO does not mean that the target is no longer in your reach. Anything you threaten has to be within your reach, but that does not mean that you threaten everything within your reach.
I would say that the grab comes before the second attack for one reason. The grab is not a separate attack it is part of the originating attack. Using Grab is an option not required. The creature with grab is not required to start a grapple and can simply attack normally. If the creature with grab does decided to start a grapple it takes no time and is part of the original attack.
Whether you can use cleave with grab is going to depend on the circumstances. RAW there is nothing that would stop this from happening. I can see a GM limiting this based on the nature of the attack. The huge T-rex seems like a reasonable use and I would allow it. I could see restricting this based on the attack that was triggering the grab.
That too... although I assumed someone already pointed out that nothing ties what you can attack to your threaten squares, your threaten squares are a result of what you can attack (except in rare cases).
Technically you can grab as many critters as you have attacks with the gab ability. The hitch comes on your next turn when you have to decide which critter you are going to spend your standard action on to maintain the grapple. The others get to go free.
First you make a grabe as a free action and the rules of pathfinder and D&D says you can't make the same free action two times in a round, turn o whatever.There is no such rule, which is good since
You are right, i read that advanced firearms can only use a free action to reload a single shot 1 time per round using feats or other sources, and my brain mixed that with other rules.
Technically you can grab as many critters as you have attacks with the gab ability. The hitch comes on your next turn when you have to decide which critter you are going to spend your standard action on to maintain the grapple. The others get to go free.
I thought that at first too, but the real problem was the T-rex was a primal companion and it had the swallow whole ability.
|
Grab (Ex)
Source Bestiary 6 pg. 294, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary pg. 301, Bestiary 2 pg. 297, Bestiary 3 pg. 295, Bestiary 4 pg. 295, Bestiary 5 pg. 294
If the creature hits with the indicated attack, it deals the normal amount of damage and tries to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab works only against opponents the same size category as the creature or smaller. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its combat maneuver check to start and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each grapple combat maneuver check it succeeds at during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constrict and grapple damage (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).Creatures with the grab special attack receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks to start and maintain a grapple.
RAW, the attempt to grab is automatic, not a choice of the attacker.
It is immediately after the hit, so before starting the next attack you get thanks to Cleave.Depending on the size of the grappled creature, the grab tried with the attacks you get with Cleave can automatically fail as you can lack the space to drag the grabbed creature adjacent to you.
"The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent." The first part of that phrase implies that normally you are using your whole body in the grapple (and that would block the other Cleave attacks if you don release the grappled creature immediately), but it never says that explicitly. "Implied" rules are always very questionable.
Cleave (Combat)
Source PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 119
You can strike two adjacent foes with a single swing.Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.
Nothing stops you from using a different limb or weapon.
Grab (Ex)
Cleave (Combat)Source PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 119
You can strike two adjacent foes with a single swing.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.
Nothing stops you from using a different limb or weapon.
In the literal description of cleave says you can strike two creatures with a single swing, so yeah... it's not writed in stone, but like it's obvious how it should work. With the first strike you pierce over the first enemy to reach the one who is next to him, so that's why you have two make the second attack to see if your maneuver works and also hit the second enemy.
Two weapons = two swings, a single weapon = single swing.|
|
Grab (Ex)
Cleave (Combat)Source PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 119
You can strike two adjacent foes with a single swing.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.
Nothing stops you from using a different limb or weapon.
In the literal description of cleave says you can strike two creatures with a single swing, so yeah... it's not writed in stone, but like it's obvious how it should work. With the first strike you pierce over the first enemy to reach the one who is next to him, so that's why you have two make the second attack to see if your maneuver works and also hit the second enemy.
Two weapons = two swings, a single weapon = single swing.
In the description it says that, not in the benefits. The description is something that is written in a discursive way and has very little effect on how something works.
Grab (Ex)
Cleave (Combat)Source PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 119
You can strike two adjacent foes with a single swing.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.
Nothing stops you from using a different limb or weapon.
In the literal description of cleave says you can strike two creatures with a single swing, so yeah... it's not writed in stone, but like it's obvious how it should work. With the first strike you pierce over the first enemy to reach the one who is next to him, so that's why you have two make the second attack to see if your maneuver works and also hit the second enemy.
Two weapons = two swings, a single weapon = single swing.In the description it says that, not in the benefits. The description is something that is written in a discursive way and has very little effect on how something works.
Description text often gives insight into the authors intention. Some feats with poorly written benefits have even been clarified in the past based on their description text. While the description may not be a solid rules text, it can be used to clarify rules. In this case, while RAW cleave is not limited to a single weapon, the description makes it very clear the RAI is for such a limitation. However, there is reason for the ambiguity in the benefit line. Not all weapons can functionally cleave with a single swing, though all melee weapons can be used with the feat. If someone were to cleave with a thrusting weapon for example, they might have to make two swings.
As for the debacle with grab+cleave... look at it as a similar effect to the barbarian’s rage power Body Bludgeon... just without changing your damage from your initial natural weapon... you claw at someone, hook them, and keep going slamming them into the next, who you are now trying to hold with the first... start of the following round, one of your prey may very well escape.
|
|
I always consider the descriptive text as a source of information on what the creator intended. But too often taking it as rule text would be misleading. As you pointed out, making a single swing against two opponents with a thrusting weapon is problematic.
Actually swinging a thrusting weapon when you attack doesn't work so well even without cleave.
Maybe Cleave can be used only with weapons that can be swung? ;-)