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"Maximum number if oeople that can occupy a role" is not the same as "multiple roles". If it was, why would this TIM exist?
Primary Fighting Style (Pilot): Whenever you use the flyby stunt and exceed the stunt’s Piloting check DC by 5 or more, you can use the snap shot minor crew action during the gunnery phase, even if your starship’s gunner has already used an action this round. This doesn’t allow a starship weapon to be used more than once per round.You got me.
However I have been running it this way since day one and I am not changing it now.
I'm not trying to tell you that you have to. There's absolutely nothing wrong with using houserules that work better for you and your group.
I just don't want people looking for forum threads to figure out what the base rules are before applying houserules to get wrong information.
I agree with hammerjack. Just as you can have multiple engineers or multiple science officers, you can have multiple gunners in the gunner role. There is still only one science officer role, one engineer role, one gunner role. If any of those are occupied, you can't take the minor actions associated with them.
That's fine.
But it make no sense to that a 4 mount ship can have 4 gunners each fire 1 gun 1 time.
And the same ship can have the pilot take a snap shot one time from one gun if there are no manned gun mounts
But on the same ship the pilot can't take a snap shot with 1 of the 3 unmanned guns if there is one gunner?
Makes no sense.
I will just call it a house rule then.
Primary Fighting Style (Pilot): Whenever you use the flyby stunt and exceed the stunt’s Piloting check DC by 5 or more, you can use the snap shot minor crew action during the gunnery phase, even if your starship’s gunner has already used an action this round. This doesn’t allow a starship weapon to be used more than once per round.
Can you give me the source for this please? I can't find it.
I'm not trying to tell you that you have to. There's absolutely nothing wrong with using houserules that work better for you and your group.
I know your not.
I just don't want people looking for forum threads to figure out what the base rules are before applying houserules to get wrong information.
I know you are being helpful to people.
Starship Operations Manual page 32, under Class Feature based Training Interface Modules.
I agree with hammerjack. Just as you can have multiple engineers or multiple science officers, you can have multiple gunners in the gunner role. There is still only one science officer role, one engineer role, one gunner role. If any of those are occupied, you can't take the minor actions associated with them.
I understand that you can have multiple engineers and multiple science officers.
I could be mistaken, but if you have multiple science officers you still can take only one science officer action per turn.
Also the only time multiple engineers can take an engineer action is to patch a damaged system.
But multiple gunners can act every round as long as they have an open gun mount.
Starship Operations Manual page 32, under Class Feature based Training Interface Modules.
Thanks
Science officer does not have a restriction like that.
Science officer does not have a restriction like that.
So if we look at the floor plan for the Sunrise Maiden (a type and size of ship PCs usually have), on the bridge it has a captain's station, a pilot's station, an engineering/auxiliary gunnery station and a science/auxiliary gunnery station.
There are also 2 gunnery stations just aft of the bridge.
Are you telling me that the captain, pilot, engineer and 1 gunner (there are only 5 science office actions available at 12th level) can all declare themselves a science officer at the start of a combat turn so they can make 5 difference science officer checks even though there is only 1 science officer console??
And then your further going to tell me you will not let a declared science officer or declared engineer take a snap shot with one of three unmanned (the ship has 5 weapons mounted) if either of or both of the gunnery stations are manned even though both the engineer & science stations are clearly labelled auxiliary gunner stations??
Really??
Science officer does not have a restriction like that.So if we look at the floor plan for the Sunrise Maiden (a type and size of ship PCs usually have), on the bridge it has a captain's station, a pilot's station, an engineering/auxiliary gunnery station and a science/auxiliary gunnery station.
There are also 2 gunnery stations just aft of the bridge.
Are you telling me that the captain, pilot, engineer and 1 gunner (there are only 5 science office actions available at 12th level) can all declare themselves a science officer at the start of a combat turn so they can make 5 difference science officer checks even though there is only 1 science officer console??
And then your further going to tell me you will not let a declared science officer or declared engineer take a snap shot with one of three unmanned (the ship has 5 weapons mounted) if either of or both of the gunnery stations are manned even though both the engineer & science stations are clearly labelled auxiliary gunner stations??
Really??
There's no such thing from a mechanical point of view as a captain's station, pilot's station, gunner's station, etc. on a medium or small ship in Starfinder. All 4 or 6 roles can be flexibly filled and changed every single combat round no matter what label you may have put up next to a particular chair.
So yes, any number of gunners, engineers, and science officers can declare themselves each round. Whether their are enough actions for them to take is a separate rules matter, and one that has changed since the CRB was published and may change again.
That statement can be interpreted differently than the way you interpreted it. It can be read to mean that if you decide to be the pilot at all times you can do that.
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That statement can be interpreted differently than the way you interpreted it. It can be read to mean that if you decide to be the pilot at all times you can do that.
No. That is not a valid interpretation of the statement. Thats equivocation from might to may and then equivocation from the two different meanings of may. (permission or perhaps)
Science officer does not have a restriction like that.So if we look at the floor plan for the Sunrise Maiden (a type and size of ship PCs usually have), on the bridge it has a captain's station, a pilot's station, an engineering/auxiliary gunnery station and a science/auxiliary gunnery station.
There are also 2 gunnery stations just aft of the bridge.
Are you telling me that the captain, pilot, engineer and 1 gunner (there are only 5 science office actions available at 12th level) can all declare themselves a science officer at the start of a combat turn so they can make 5 difference science officer checks even though there is only 1 science officer console??
And then your further going to tell me you will not let a declared science officer or declared engineer take a snap shot with one of three unmanned (the ship has 5 weapons mounted) if either of or both of the gunnery stations are manned even though both the engineer & science stations are clearly labelled auxiliary gunner stations??
Really??
Depends, are you asking a Rules Question or an advice question. If it's a Rules question about how Minor Crew Actions officially work in Starfinder, then yes, really. Also, a declared gunner could access the science systems enough for a Quick Rescan minor action, but can't do it while an actual science officer is balancing shields. And the floor plan if the Sunrise Maiden doesn't change anything.
If its an Advice question about whether the ruless feel like they make sense or supper the narrative well enough, then there's absolutely a lot more grey area, and a lot of my answer would depend on what players I had in that game and whether I felt like making stations and floor plan relevant and messing with minor crew action requirements would make the game more fun, or bog down ship combat which can suffer from a slow pace for some groups already.
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Narative sense would also depend on how long a starship combat round is. If its minutes of dodging weaving and firing Running from one station to another seems doable. if its 6 seconds.. not so much.
I often cover science and engineering in starship combats. I'll descibe my characters sitting in a rolling office chair on a phone book rolling left and right with the ship to go to the two different stations
"Bank left, i need to go repair the shields!"
I think it is a valid interpretation. There is so much nuance to the English language. If you want something to be crystal clear it has to be stated as clearly as possible. However, since the rulebooks are always on a word count that is not easy to do. Therefore, I still think the question of if you lose initiative when you Glide needs to be addressed.
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That statement can be interpreted differently than the way you interpreted it. It can be read to mean that if you decide to be the pilot at all times you can do that.
No, it really can't be interpreted differently.
Might always be the pilot means a single crew member might always be the pilot. If they are always the pilot, that means that at the start of every combat round, they are in the pilot role. If they are in the pilot role, they may only ever take pilot actions. They may also take minor actions with the restrictions placed on minor actions. That's all their options available if they always take the pilot role.
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Narative sense would also depend on how long a starship combat round is. If its minutes of dodging weaving and firing Running from one station to another seems doable. if its 6 seconds.. not so much.
I often cover science and engineering in starship combats. I'll descibe my characters sitting in a rolling office chair on a phone book rolling left and right with the ship to go to the two different stations
"Bank left, i need to go repair the shields!"
I have always taken starship combat to be taking place at a minimum of 1 minute per ship comabt round with gunners actually taking multiple shots (with the single roll being the cumulative effect of their fire for the turn) and pilots making multiple within each hex (again with the one piloting check be representative of what the did).
Never thought it was six seconds.
And lol on the rolling chair.
Depends, are you asking a Rules Question or an advice question. If it's a Rules question about how Minor Crew Actions officially work in Starfinder, then yes, really. Also, a declared gunner could access the science systems enough for a Quick Rescan minor action, but can't do it while an actual science officer is balancing shields. And the floor plan if the Sunrise Maiden doesn't change anything.
I read the CRB ship combat again. RAW you are 100% correct. At best they are functional with a lot of immersion left out.
If its an Advice question about whether the ruless feel like they make sense or supper the narrative well enough, then there's absolutely a lot more grey area, and a lot of my answer would depend on what players I had in that game and whether I felt like making stations and floor plan relevant and messing with minor crew action requirements would make the game more fun, or bog down ship combat which can suffer from a slow pace for some groups already.
Deck plans and number and types of crew stations absolutely matter to me and my players for the narrative aspects.
If anything allowing a snap shot from an an unmanned weapon's mount has sped the up a bit.
More shots, means more hits, means more damage and quicker kills.
I believe we are right around 5 to 7 rounds with a 45 minute time.
Although the Harp and Lute combat in SoS took 22 rounds. Ugh!
Although the Harp and Lute combat in SoS took 22 rounds. Ugh!
I don't know your playstyle, but try intentionally not diverting power/rebalancing the shields for NPC ships. It just goes faster.
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I think it is a valid interpretation. There is so much nuance to the English language. If you want something to be crystal clear it has to be stated as clearly as possible. However, since the rulebooks are always on a word count that is not easy to do. Therefore, I still think the question of if you lose initiative when you Glide needs to be addressed.
There really isn't nuance in this case.
It's if Pilot=yes then Init=Y, elseif Pilot=No then Init=0.
It's incredibly clear language. You just seem to want it to mean something else.
I don't know your playstyle, but try intentionally not diverting power/rebalancing the shields for NPC ships. It just goes faster.
I let NPC ships do everything that the PCs can do.
I also have a D100 of descriptive mechanical issues that happen in addition to the critical from the game.
A fire can start, helm only answers to port, artificial gravity goes offline, main computer goes off line and the like happen.
My players suffer from a terminal case of diceitis.
If they are hitting often then they roll terrible damage.
If they are not hitting often then they roll great damage.
My wife take they cake. Any ship or creature with 3 or fewer wounds left she will roll a nat 20 around 80% of the time.
Its uncanny.
@Garretmander, I would agree with you, but I've posed this question to other players and GM's and have had them respond by giving opinions that support both interpretations. It can't be so crystal clear if I'm getting different opinions.
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@Garretmander, I would agree with you, but I've posed this question to other players and GM's and have had them respond by giving opinions that support both interpretations. It can't be so crystal clear if I'm getting different opinions.
I think you overestimate how much attention the average GM give to the rules, and the english behind them.
The average GM does not read the rules sixteen times and memorizes how exactly they work. The average GM makes plenty of mistakes (I have).
The average GM only goes to look up a rule when it becomes disruptive. This one really won't on average.
This is why the rules forum exists. Several people read the rule and double check what it really means. We get to the bottom, RAW, and hopefully RAI answer to rules questions.
This one is cut and dry. In your experience, apparently a lot of GMs get it wrong, but the rules language behind it is very clear. People get things wrong, sometimes very often.
@Garretmander, I would agree with you, but I've posed this question to other players and GM's and have had them respond by giving opinions that support both interpretations. It can't be so crystal clear if I'm getting different opinions.
There are people unable to comprehend certain things no matter how well they are explained. That doesn't change their objective meaning, though.
I think it is a valid interpretation. There is so much nuance to the English language. If you want something to be crystal clear it has to be stated as clearly as possible. However, since the rulebooks are always on a word count that is not easy to do. Therefore, I still think the question of if you lose initiative when you Glide needs to be addressed.
Can you argue for any nuance in this particular sentence?
Might always be the pilot flat out says they might be the pilot or they might not. How is not being the pilot even an option under your interpretation?
"BigNorseWolf might be playing a ysoki" = bignorsewolf if always playing a ysoki? That word doesn't mean that thing.
So what you have for your position is.. epistemic nihilism with the english language.
What you have against your position is the very idea of roles, when rolls are declared, the text of the glide minor action, the text of the snapshot minor action, as well as changes to starship combat that would make dexguy both the best gunner and the best pilot at the same time.
Coming to any conclusion other than oh hell no is not trying to interpret the rules. Its trying to twist the rules into an answer to the point of just making one up.
So I've chosen to always be the pilot and Glide can be interpreted to mean that while you are still the pilot you can use your action to fire your ship's weapons at the tradeoff of only being able to move 1/2 your speed and increase your turn radius by 2.
Yes, it does allow you to have one PC be your best gunner and pilot at the same time, but I don't see that as an issue.
I play SFS and we don't have death spheres in SFS so using Glide is not overpowered because it wouldn't be used every round.
Death spheres can have a severe negative affect on starship combat. Paizo has acknowledged that and addressed it in the Starship Operations Manual. I also think if they ruled that any critical hit that applies to weapons systems affects the turret weapons no matter what quadrant they are firing in that would be another balancing mechanism.
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So I've chosen to always be the pilot and Glide can be interpreted to mean that while you are still the pilot you can use your action to fire your ship's weapons at the tradeoff of only being able to move 1/2 your speed and increase your turn radius by 2.
It can't be interpreted that way and if someone did so around me I'd suggest they get checked out for a stroke.
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In SFS, this is absolutely not legal, as it is a pure houserule. Glide cannot allow you to take actions in a role that you are not in during that round.
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So I've chosen to always be the pilot and Glide can be interpreted to mean that while you are still the pilot you can use your action to fire your ship's weapons at the tradeoff of only being able to move 1/2 your speed and increase your turn radius by 2.
Yes you can. But rules are nested for a reason, so you don't need to restate the rules for every single instance.
you are the pilot. You are gliding. that part is legal. (there's NO reason to do this, but its legal)
If you are the pilot then you are the pilot.
But there is no mechanism for the pilot to shoot besides snapshot.
If you snapshot no one else can fire.
You cannot be schrodingers pilot. You cannot be in one role when it suits you and in a different role when it works against you. You are in ONE role each round, gunner or pilot. That is in addition to the action economy. Obeying the action economy alone is not sufficient to meet all of the rules, you also have to stay in your role. The captain can't decide at the end of the round that since we're facing forward he'd like to gun... its too late. That was a decision for the start of the round.
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So I've chosen to always be the pilotOkay, so at the start of the starship combat round you are in the pilot role.
and Glide can be interpreted to mean that while you are still the pilot you can use your action to fire your ship's weapons at the tradeoff of only being able to move 1/2 your speed and increase your turn radius by 2.
You cannot take the shoot action. You are in the pilot role.
The tradeoff isn't just half speed and increased turn radius. The tradeoff of you being a gunner and gliding instead of being a pilot and flying is that you also lose initiative.
And, as you've pointed out, SFS ships aren't death spheres. If you're flying a ship in SFS, you really want a pilot more than an extra gunner. The tradeoff is too steep a price.
For the sake of discussion then how do you fire all the weapons in the bow arc of some of the tiny starfighters that were presented in the Starship Operations Manual. There are a few that only seat a pilot, but have two bow weapons. Are these ships not meant to be able to fire all their weapons at once?
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For the sake of discussion then how do you fire all the weapons in the bow arc of some of the tiny starfighters that were presented in the Starship Operations Manual. There are a few that only seat a pilot, but have two bow weapons. Are these ships not meant to be able to fire all their weapons at once?
If they have two crew, the gunner may take the fire at will or broadside actions to fire multiple weapons in the same arc.
If one crew, they may glide as a minor action (zero init), and hope the big capital ship they're shooting at can't turn enough to take them out of their preferred arc.
Also, most of these fighter's second weapon is a limited fire weapon (as required when building a ship with the fighter frame). So, really the pilot just fires the missile launcher until it runs out of ammo with snap shot, then switched to guns.