Not sure if... I get it right, what Brawlers Martial Training is capable of.

[Cheng Wu]

Hi,

I have a few questions concerning how martial training works and I hope, some of you can bring me enlightment, what it can do and what not. I try to answer them myself, but feel free to correct me, so I can fully understand how this ability works.

First of all, the text: „Martial Training (Ex)
At 1st level, a brawler counts her total brawler levels as both fighter levels and monk levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats. She also counts as both a fighter and a monk for feats and magic items that have different effects based on whether the character has levels in those classes (such as Stunning Fist and a monk’s robe). This ability does not automatically grant feats normally granted to fighters and monks based on class level, namely Stunning Fist.“

I guess, the first sentence covers some feats like e.g. Disruptive „Prerequisites: 6th-level fighter.
Benefit: The DC to cast spells defensively increases by +4 for all enemies that are within your threatened area. This increase to casting spells defensively only applies if you are aware of the enemy’s location and are capable of taking an attack of opportunity. If you can only take one attack of opportunity per round and have already used that attack, this increase does not apply.“
But that is all I understand with total certainty.

I guess the last sentence means, when you are a brawler, you do not get any feats, which both parent classes would gain by leveling up the brawlerclass, so that the Brawler does not get everything from the monk AND the fighter class or to be more accurate, Brawlers do not get anything.

But what does the second sentence mean and how does he correspond with the third one? If I dip a level in Monk, I would get everything a lvl 1 Monk would get, that includes e.g. stunning fist (ex), which let´s me get stunning fist (feat). In my opinion, this does not connect with martial training at first, but stunning fist (ex) says: „The monk may attempt a stunning attack a number of times per day equal to his monk level, plus one more time per day for every four levels he has in classes other than monk.
At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This condition replaces stunning the target for 1 round, and a successful saving throw still negates the effect.“
And here my mind is not very sure how martial training works.
I guess, if I take at first one lvl in monk and afterwards just brawler lvl, I get one stunning fist per day plus at character lvl 5 (=1 lvl Monk + 4l vl Brawler) a second one and so on. But what about the changes of stunning fist (EX, not the feat) starting with lvl 4? It speaks about „monk“, but not about „monk lvl“? Even if the Charakter would be an Ex-Monk beeing a brawler starting with lvl 2, he still would count as monk. So would the EX stunning fist even scale for the brawler at character level 4?

Thanks for reading, please correct me, if I got something wrong.

[RAWmonger]

The last sentence means that when you take your first level in Brawler, you don't automatically get Stunning Fist as a bonus feat (or any other bonus feats), like a level 1 monk would, and the same applies to any fighter bonus feats from fighter levels.... You don't get those feats. You just count your Brawler level as monk & fighter for any feats you choose at your normal character progression (odd numbered character levels) and for your bonus combat feats that you get due to Brawler levels.

The second sentence and the third sentence are completely separate. The second sentence states that when feats and magic items have specific effects based on monk or fighter levels, you count your Brawler level as fighter and monk levels for the purpose of those feats and those magic items.

The Feat "Stunning Fist" Does not include this text: At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This condition replaces stunning the target for 1 round, and a successful saving throw still negates the effect.

The Monk Class ability includes that text. Regardless of if you dip a level into monk, you will not get to count your brawler levels as monk levels for the purpose of this class ability, because it is a class ability that grants those new conditions, not the feat.

The Feat Stunning Fist does include this text:" monk may attempt a stunning attack a number of times per day equal to his monk level, plus one more time per day for every four levels he has in classes other than monk."

So as a level 4 Brawler you can use Stunning Fist 4 times a day, not once, since the *feat* has specific effects for a monk, and your Brawler levels count as fighter levels for the purpose of what the feat effects.

You only only only only only count your Brawler level as monk and fighter for the effects in feats and magic items, not the way that other class abilities from monk or fighter might effect those feats.

[Cheng Wu]

Hi RAWmonger,

thank you so much for your detailed answer. Unfortunately I am still not sure in two of your points. And yes, I read your very last sentence and believe in your words, but I also want to fully understand why it is so, since I am a new part time GM.

Why does the feat stunning fist gives me one use per day per brawler level? The second sentence of martial training counts me in as monk, nice, but afterwards in the feat stunning fist it is said: "A monk may attempt a stunning attack a number of times per day equal to his MONK LEVEL." The first sentence of martial training just tells me to count the brawler level for qualifying for feats, but not to count as monk level when I already got the feat, so I do not understand, where the scaling of uses of stunning fist comes from.

The second unsure point is:
You wrote: "The Monk Class ability includes that text. Regardless of if you dip a level into monk, you will not get to count your brawler levels as monk levels for the purpose of this class ability, because it is a class ability that grants those new conditions, not the feat."
When I dip into another class, e.g. here monk lvl 1, I do qualify for the Monk class abilities, given to the monk class at lvl 1.
When I read in the monk ability stunning fist:
"At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist" is it then meant: "At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter (AS A MONK), the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist"? Sorry to be that nitpicking, since english is not my mother tongue I guess it is too obvious, but I just can´t read it out of the context.

There comes another question in my mind:
The feat dragon Ferocity ( https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dragon-ferocity-combat/ ) has a "special". Part of this special is: "A monk with this feat can use Elemental Fist as if he were a monk of the four winds." If I understood you correct, this means the second sentence of martial training would qualify a brawler for the quoted special. Since the feat elemental fist ( https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/elemental-fist-combat/ ) has a special itself: "A monk of the four winds receives Elemental Fist as a bonus feat at 1st level, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. A monk may attempt an Elemental Fist attack a number of times per day equal to his monk level, plus one more time per day for every four levels he has in classes other than monk." But the only time the monk of the four winds is called in the text of this feat, it speaks about getting this feat, while the rest of the special just speaks about how often a monk (and so brawler <3) can use this feat per day. So, does the special of the feat Dragon Ferocity gives a monk and a brawler, if they also take the feat elemental fist, the ability Elemental Fist of the Monk of the four winds? And if yes, am I correct, that a monk would benefit from the scaling of this ability and the brawler would not like you already wrote for stunning fist?

Last question in this concern: Having read your last sentence, I already guess that a brawler character, who makes at the very first character level a dip into the monk archetype Master of Many Styles ( https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo-monk-ar chetypes/master-of-many-styles/ ), will get the ability "fuse style", but the ability does not scale any more since there won´t be any more monk level ups, but just brawler ones? Am I right?

Greetz,

WU

[MrCharisma]

Any benefits you get from the feat scale with your Brawler level. LINK

Any benefits you get from the Monk class DON'T scale with your Brawler level. LINK

Essentially, if it's in the top link you're good, if not you don't get it.

[RAWmonger]

Cheng Wu wrote:

Why does the feat stunning fist gives me one use per day per brawler level? The second sentence of martial training counts me in as monk, nice, but afterwards in the feat stunning fist it is said: "A monk may attempt a stunning attack a number of times per day equal to his MONK LEVEL."

Martial Training:"She also counts as... a monk for feats... that have different effects based on whether the character has levels in those classes (such as Stunning Fist and a monk’s robe)." Stunning fist has a different effect if you have levels in monk. That effect is "A monk may attempt a stunning attack a number of times per day equal to his monk level." Since it has a different effect for characters who have monk levels, the brawler counts their levels as monk levels for this effect.

Cheng Wu wrote:

"At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist" is it then meant: "At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter (AS A MONK)..."

That's correct. Scaling class abilities, or class abilities that grant other effects at later levels, only care about your class level, not your character level, unless otherwise specified.

Cheng Wu wrote:

So, does the special of the feat Dragon Ferocity gives a monk and a brawler, if they also take the feat elemental fist, the ability Elemental Fist of the Monk of the four winds? And if yes, am I correct, that a monk would benefit from the scaling of this ability and the brawler would not like you already wrote for stunning fist?

So this is most definitely a corner case and I don't know for sure. I'm inclined to say that the Brawler levels count in this instance, because it's the feat that says "A monk [and therefor a brawler] with this feat can use Elemental Fist as if he were a monk of the four winds." And I agree that this feat special effect is talking about the supernatural ability they get with the scaling damage, since there's really no other difference for Monks of the Four Winds.

The difference between this feat and Stunning Fist, is that Stunning Fist does not say in the feat that "a monk with this feat can use stunning fist as the monk class ability." They do this because there are Monk archetypes that trade out Stunning Fist for other stuff, so if a monk with one of those Archetypes got the feat Stunning Fist at a later level, they would not get the bonus conditions that come with having the class ability.

Cheng Wu wrote:

Last question in this concern: Having read your last sentence, I already guess that a brawler character, who makes at the very first character level a dip into the monk archetype Master of Many Styles ( https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo-monk-ar chetypes/master-of-many-styles/ ), will get the ability "fuse style", but the ability does not scale any more since there won´t be any more monk level ups, but just brawler ones? Am I right?

That's correct. You would only be able to use "fuse style" as a level 1 master of many styles monk, regardless of your character level. The logic behind this is that if class abilities scaled with character level, then everyone would just take a new level in a different class every time, and end up with every class ability in the game that scales with their character level. Master of Many Styles or Maneuver Master monk are probably my all-time favorite one-level dips. Huge saving throw bonuses, and great level 1 class abilities.

Hope this has helped. Cheers.

[Cheng Wu]

It has. Thank you so much, not only for the detailed explanations, but for helping me getting a better understanding of how these class abilities and feats correspond with each other. I am sure, my comprehenson of these rules have improved a lot.